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My Views on Debate One

Posted: 10/3/2012 11:18 PM

My Views on Debate One 


Intro:  I've voted Republican ... rarely.   Voted against Fieger.  Voted against Clinton the 2nd time around.  Not much else.

But -- during W, I complained about how he let the lid fly off the deficit.  Obama, on average, has let the lid fly off even more.  Irresponsible.   Soooo ... if Mitt will let me, I'll vote for ... umm ... change.   That's my baseline.  In brief.

The debate itself.

First -- the Kennedy/Nixon factor.  Huh?  Well -- ever been to the wax museums in Niagara or SF or other places.  Truly, if they put up a wax version of Mitt, I do not think it will differ AT ALL from the Mitt we saw tonight.  Wax.  Not human.   The 5-o'clock shadow got Nixon.  The plastic look of the Ken-doll's dad ... could hurt Mitt.  And his frozen smarmy look at Obama at times was not a good look either.  But don't guess what I'm saying next by the above.

Overall -- I felt Mitt came off -- in his remarks -- pretty well.  He clarified himself quite a bit.   And, IMHO, he outdueled Obama.  By a bit.  Not saying he squashed Obama.   And I'll be interested in reading the fact-check folks later.   But, I felt fairly good about Mitt.  Of course, this is where Mitt should have been focusing the past few weeks or months.  Domestic/economic matters.  Foreign policy can easily be attacked -- but that's NOT what Mitt's angle should be and not where he needs to be.  It's the economy stupid.  Some guy said that some 20 years ago, I think.

I still think Mitt needs to get a bit more specific on how he's going to help small business.  The failure to do that is harming him.  But I liked his clever answer that he's coming in to the presidency with a frame of mind and goals etc, but recognizes the need to engage Congress in reaching those goals etc.  That approach only goes so far -- but I liked the notion.  And he DID work with a heavy Dem-majority in Mass. -- so he's proven the work-together approach.  Obama has proven largely the opposite in terms of working together.  And Mitt got that point across.

Mitt didn't just hammer Obama, he did get some of his own notions out there.  But, he DID hammer effectively, I think.  Credibly.   Obama promised to cut the deficits in half -- didn't cut them at all -- so his promises of cutting them in the future seem ... empty.  The record speaks.

Health care -- not as clean as it could have been, but Mitt held firm in supporting Mitt-Care of Mass while distinguishing it from ObamaCare.  That said, it appeared both guys played pretty loose with some claims.   Like the Obama unelected panel and what it would or wouldn't do.

Then again, the $5 tril tax cut for rich folks.   Mitt ran from that figure.  Sort of.  He preferred to say there is no figure and that any cuts he makes won't increase the deficit.  Alas, this becomes illusory to an extent as Mitt builds in optimistic growth claims -- and those are largely the means by which he claims he'll increase revenues.  It's not that a growing economy won't have benefits in terms of revenues -- but the amount of benefit has been greatly exaggerated by past regimes and a cynical eye remains from this chair.

Mitt and Obama were both a bit hazy on that Top 3 pct of the small business world.  Obama doesn't like including it, apparently, and would raise taxes on it.  And Mitt says those 3 pct of small businesses actually account for a massive pct of jobs and potential job growth -- or job losses -- depending on how they are treated.  I will have to do some homework on this matter.  My point here is that NEITHER guy really made it clear what they were talking about.  Similarly, Obama mentions that Mitt would treat Trump's business as a "small business."  Mitt didn't deny it ... but exactly how Trump would fit as a small business was never explained.

IMO -- these guys did NOT do badly in trying to answer the questions and issues.  To be sure, the questions were super-general in this debate.  In previous debates, and perhaps some to follow, there may be more specific questions - ones where the answers clearly try to avoid truly addressing the questions asked.  But I felt in THIS debate, the guys mostly did stay on point (sort of).

Further, this debate, for me, worked fairly well as a style.  General questions with the guys able to really respond.  Not the 2 minute soundbite that I thought was going to happen, but 2 minutes followed by ... a lot of minutes.  To really say what they hoped to say without truncating too much.  I might like even more direct interaction, but really, this wasn't bad.

Perfect?  Nah -- the guys are too canned and practiced.  But, I felt they came off fairly well.  And I had enough interest level so it wasn't boring at least for me (my wife left the room!!). 

One last note:  despite LOOKING plastic, waxy and cold, I felt Mitt -- in his words -- was a real person, with some level of compassion and down-to-earth.  Still not a strong suit -- but the ice that sometimes seems to attach to him (to a fault) seemed to be pretty minor tonight.  To his credit.   Obama came off friendly as always.  And I DIDN'T feel he was condescending in his style toward Mitt.  Some talking heads thought his disdain and lack of respect for Mitt might reveal itself in a manner that could hurt Obama.   I don't think that ever materialized.   Mitt seemed on top of his message and except for the frozen wax expression, he looked presidential.

Grades?  Mitt:  B+.  Obama:  B.  Not a slam dunk.  But Mitt got done what I think he had to get done ... to give himself a shot.  Less than 5 weeks, folks.

Sorry it's so long -- but those who know my writing know I'm almost never brief!!
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Posted: 10/3/2012 11:47 PM

Re: My Views on Debate One 


I think it was more of a slam dunk than you're implying it was.

President Obama looked utterly befuddled and uncomfortable.  I could feel his angst and dread in being there.  Romney was having fun- hence why he wanted to keep jumping in and answer questions or refute things Obama said.  It looked like Obama was getting a root canal and at every point when someone could interrupt Obama, he would let them and subside- to me, a clear indication that he really didn't have much to say.

I felt Romney gave an A- performance.  Obama with a D+.
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Posted: 10/4/2012 1:07 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


i just hope someone will compair the 'uhhs' between obama and romney. i'm sure it's probably like 1000-1.

bill maher "i can't believe i'm saying this, but obama looks like he DOES need a teleprompter"
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Posted: 10/4/2012 1:11 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


my major gripe with Romney:

whenever obama was spouting off on how obamacare was some sort of child of romneycare in Mass. Romney should have, needed to, and failed to point out the 70ish pages of his legislation, versus the 2000 plus pages of 'obama'care(pelosi/reedcare)

romney should have pointed out 'we need to pass it to find out what's in it!'

he should have called it the tax that it is (According to the Supreme Court)

he should've mentioned the bribes that made obamacare possible (he almost started to, and then laid off)

etc.etc.etc.etc.etc....

Last edited 10/4/2012 1:12 AM by xxdeadheadxxx

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Posted: 10/4/2012 1:17 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


if i were romney's adviser..................

and obama compared romneycare to obamacare...........

i'd tell romney to say this:

"Comparing my plan to yours, mr. president, would be like saying that a Hobbit gave birth to a sumo wrestler."

Last edited 10/4/2012 1:19 AM by xxdeadheadxxx

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Posted: 10/4/2012 7:23 AM

Re: My Views on Debate One 



sneedsha wrote: I think it was more of a slam dunk than you're implying it was.

President Obama looked utterly befuddled and uncomfortable.  I could feel his angst and dread in being there.  Romney was having fun- hence why he wanted to keep jumping in and answer questions or refute things Obama said.  It looked like Obama was getting a root canal and at every point when someone could interrupt Obama, he would let them and subside- to me, a clear indication that he really didn't have much to say.

I felt Romney gave an A- performance.  Obama with a D+.
Well, Atty did preface by saying he almost always "votes" Democrat. (Which means he's a Democrat, but, doesn't want to come out and say so.)
I can relate. I used to be a staunch Democrat, to the point that my Teamster Grandfather and I stopped talking for about a year in 1980 because he supported Reagan and I thought he was a sell out.
I voted for Reagan in 84 and never looked back. I have voted for a few local and state Democrats who were clearly the best candidates, but, have mainly voted Libertarian at the state level since 92.
Speaking of clearly best candidates, Mitt Romney is clearly, the better Presidential candidate. I guess I should have prefaced that by saying he was far from my first choice among the Republican field. He's a tad left for my taste, but, still a centrist standing next to Comrade Obama.
I'd have to agree with Sneeda's assessment. Mitt Romney A+ Barry Soetoro D

In the last century, governments killed 260 million of their own citizens. Logical conclusion: Ban governments.
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Posted: 10/4/2012 7:45 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


I went in looking at it totally nuetral.I have thought up until now Romney always appears uncompfortable in debates and sometime soft in responce. His facial expressions have looked smerky in the past but i do have to say he looked compfortable and warm.Didnt see the pasty part.I think thats fishing to some degree.Maybe in the past..but not last night.
On the Obama care he said exactly what i wanted to hear.He didnt back off of Romney care and made a somewhat clear differance between the two.You see i am for broader HC but not in such a heavy Gov control, so i will be glad to see OC dumped and feel confident he will craft a plan that is more business freindly and more to the peoples approval.
He was clearly trying to show two differant directions and i think he succeded.
He showed willingness to work accross the lines, something i think people have been rumbling for.Especially independents.
Obama was good as usual...after the first half hour.Romney caught him off gaurd from git go with his point by point and directness.It stumbled O. MR seemed prpared and i think O wanted to go off the cuff, get people listening in a relaxed feel. Didnt work.At one time Romney had just made a point by point in more debth than usual and Obama responded with (para) " you need to be more detailed".I think that got a collective WTF? Obama was staying on script with that responce and it didnt work.
Barak was very cordial and i really think he is natuaraly nice in general and last night....but he was showing in his face what he is like if he doesnt like you or your ideas. He looked spitful and condensending at times. I really think he was truthful when he told Romney at the end.."great debate".
It was.
 I also beleive he may have made a tactical error by harping on more details from Mitt.It may have worked last night because of time constraints...but i fully expect Os lapdogs to follow the lead today pushing for them and the people to be looking also.Im afraid that the R and R camp is going to give them just that, more depth and that is going to backfire on the incumbant.
  55 million tuned in, many for the first look. Now they will be all over whats being said.Who from here has the finer fork. Obama has to explain more than he should about his success or lack of.Not good for an incumbant....and i think its because of his own crafting last night.

Last edited 10/4/2012 8:01 AM by sheslion

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Posted: 10/4/2012 8:28 AM

Re: My Views on Debate One 


Yeah, I tried to give you my somewhat LEFT perspective on things -- my bias -- in looking at the debaters.   And I still have Romney the winner.  That said, SLEEPING on it, but not yet checking the fact checkers (which I'd bet hammer BOTH guys), I'd LOWER Obama to a B- or even a C+.   It was a pretty solid win for Mitt. 

Now -- Mitt still needs to make me comfy with his foreign policy side.   To be sure, I'm not a fan of Obama's performance there either.  But Mitt lacks experience totally, so I need to feel he has the gravity to be trusted as Commander and Chief of the most powerful country.

AND ...  sometime ... I assume they'll discuss domestic non-economic matters.  Some of which conservatives aren't totally sold that Mitt's on their side.  And where he may differ from Ryan.  And where my LEFT side may be too offended.  But -- my belief is that Mitt will largely NOT deal much with non-economic domestic social issues much.  That he'll try to focus on the economy as much as possible and work foreign relations as matters come up (and largely leave a lot of it up to his Kissinger-type guy whoever that may be).

There IS, however, a Supreme Court issue that can't be ducked.  And for pro-choice folks, Mitt's hand may be pretty worrisome.  I'd be counted among them, but not militantly so.  Mitt may not be militantly anti-abortion (in his true self) but his political situation will likely force him to appoint so-called pro-life nominees.

And gay questions, and civil union questions, will come up.   Mitt will TRY, surely, to leave as much to the states as he can.  Not a terrible notion.  But, there's a federal tax code and other treatments of married folks by the feds that won't let him duck the issue entirely.

Immigration is yet another issue.  And Mitt surprised some party folks in saying what he said about illegal kids. 

There's a lot to go.  And THIS past debate should have been Mitt's best moment.  And he DID take pretty good advantage.   And -- folks -- I'm TILTING his direction.   Not there yet, but if I'm satisfied with him overall (despite some big differences) I'll entrust the nation and its economy and finances to him over the FAILED Obama.
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Posted: 10/4/2012 8:38 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


With Mitt attacking Obama's record factually, Obama really had no way to respond. He really is a horrible President. America really is much worse off under Obama's policies and there really is no reason to expect better from Obama. Its the definition of insanity to expect anything other than what we have now and worse.
Obama is not going to moderate. He is not going to repeal Obamacare. He is not going to loosen the spigget or ease up on coal or slow down on spending other than to weaken the military.
We need affordable energy to recover and Obama is the enemy of conventional energy. Lets recover first and then we will have the money for R&D. Romney really hurt him with the "Backing losers" line, and when he said his first priority will be jobs. That is clearly not Obama's first priority. Obama's first priority is to the Global Climate Change agenda, and that is a job killer.
But hey, you Democrats stick with the party agenda. Damn the good of the country!

In the last century, governments killed 260 million of their own citizens. Logical conclusion: Ban governments.

Last edited 10/4/2012 8:43 AM by notfishinsunday

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Posted: 10/4/2012 9:57 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


You know...Romney also left no doubt about how he is going to lead. When you start out a debate saying he is going to cut your funding and fire you if we have to borrow the money to the Mod( Lehrer).He is showing gargantuan kahonies and leaving no doubt.
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Posted: 10/4/2012 10:10 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


I'm interested in hearing what our left-leaning members have to say.

 

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Posted: 10/4/2012 10:16 AM

Re: My Views on Debate One 


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Posted: 10/4/2012 10:52 AM

Re: My Views on Debate One 


Photobucket

In the last century, governments killed 260 million of their own citizens. Logical conclusion: Ban governments.
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Posted: 10/4/2012 10:56 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 



sid11 wrote: I'm interested in hearing what our left-leaning members have to say.
Patience! (There you go spelling police).tongue They are waiting to hear from Axelrod on how to spin it that Obama let Mitt win and why.
Its coming.

In the last century, governments killed 260 million of their own citizens. Logical conclusion: Ban governments.

Last edited 10/4/2012 11:27 AM by notfishinsunday

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Posted: 10/4/2012 11:01 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


Almost forgot about Obama questioning my patriotism.
Eff You!

In the last century, governments killed 260 million of their own citizens. Logical conclusion: Ban governments.
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Posted: 10/4/2012 11:05 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 



notfishinsunday wrote: 
Patients! 
Physical or mental?
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Posted: 10/4/2012 11:24 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 



pdono wrote:
notfishinsunday wrote: 
Patients! 
Physical or mental?
Hey, "spell check" say's its right. Whats your problem?biggrin

In the last century, governments killed 260 million of their own citizens. Logical conclusion: Ban governments.

Last edited 10/4/2012 11:25 AM by notfishinsunday

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Posted: 10/4/2012 11:36 AM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


NASDAQ Opinion on "Economic Patriotism";
www.nasdaq.com/video/video.asp...otism-517492542

In the last century, governments killed 260 million of their own citizens. Logical conclusion: Ban governments.
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Posted: 10/4/2012 12:05 PM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


A clear win for Mittens. He looked better, sounded better and sold his policies better than Barry. 

I don't think Barry has done a very good job. Some of that is his fault, some of it isn't but the 1st term is a job interview for a second term and it wasn't a great one by any stretch. 

Before the primaries, I liked Romney. I liked the centrist conservative former governor of a blue state who got people to work together and laid off of social issues I cared about. I didn't like the Romney who ran to the right to appease the special interest groups that annoy or frankly terrify me. 

And then there was this summer's Romney, a very odd, cold, distant fumbling candidate without a voice. 

The Romney last night was strong, sure of himself, well versed and seemed to have his **** together (as opposed to Barry who neither looked nor sounded like a president).

Where has this Mittens been the past 4 months and who is the real Mittens? 

Barry should be losing, but until now, he hasn't been. I think the narrow majority of the country wants Barry gone, but until this point, hasn't warmed to the idea of replacing him with Mittens. He's been unable to connect with people and sooth fears. 

That is Romney's goal for the next 34 days. Convincing true undecideds and fence sitters that he can step in and take the reigns without destroying whatever semblance of peace and prosperity we've been able to claw back since the crash of  2008/2009.

So, in this leftist's perspective, last night was a big win for Romney (but not a huge loss for Obama) and if Romney can build on this in the next two debates and not do something monumentally stupid (again) in the next month, we could have a real squeaker on our hands and he might even pull it out.

One swallow does not a summer make, but it looks like a good start to the final push for Romney.  
sid11 wrote: I'm interested in hearing what our left-leaning members have to say.
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Posted: 10/4/2012 12:12 PM

Re: My Views on Debate One 


Here's to hoping that last night's debate results in more Dems staying home on election day :)
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Posted: 10/4/2012 12:14 PM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


I am going to keep this really simple and I made a point not to over analyze it.
I made sure I watched all of the debate and formed my opinion before the end of the debate and before I heard any pundits on Cable news or before I read about it on the net.

I thought Obama won on substance and depth of explanation.
I thought Romney won on style and debate performance.
I was happy with the fact that both men are 10x what George Bush could ever imagine being.

I told my brother during the debate, "Obama is speaking like he is teaching or educating". My brother then said, "yeah, he sounds professorial".
I then said "yeah, that is probably not good during a debate. I think Romney is winning this debate".

I then heard Alex Castellanos (conservative) on CNN say the same thing about a half hour after the debate. He used the word "professorial".

I don't see that as a negative, but during a debate, probably not the best strategy.

Last edited 10/4/2012 12:16 PM by pdono

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Posted: 10/4/2012 12:14 PM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


I didn't see the debate--was out having old fashioneds and a nice medium-rare ribeye, followed by seeing Looper. So all in all, I'd declare ME the winner of last night's debate.

But from everything I read after the fact, Romney killed it, and all the lefties are supremely pissed at Obama today. We will see if this is provides the push Romney needed to break ahead--as even though he's been close, he hasn't been actually ahead in any polls in months. In any case, he certainly won the news cycle for this 24 hours, which is something he hasn't done in a while.


"The business of progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."

--GK Chesterton
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Posted: 10/4/2012 12:16 PM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


Steak for president!
REMRebound wrote: I didn't see the debate--was out having old fashioneds and a nice medium-rare ribeye, followed by seeing Looper. So all in all, I'd declare ME the winner of last night's debate.

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Posted: 10/4/2012 12:22 PM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


I refuse to watch debates, as the entire premise is almost silly these days. So, I have no personal opinion, and see it a bit like REM. The overall concensus seems to be a victory for Romney, but it will be interesting to see if there's a bump in the polls, or in fund-raising, where reports were that donors were starting to balk.

What I find interesting will be the next 2 and the one VP debate. The vegas line of course is that Ryan will gut Biden like a trout, but because of this, high expectations could also blow back on him.

For the remaining presidential debates, I don't know if the formats are different. But one would think, assuming they are the same, that's Obama's folks are going to try and coach him up to counter the sort of Romney attack that they saw this time. I could easily see a dip in the second debate due to adjustments this time, and then perhaps mitt rises in the third debate as it could be more of a "Swing for the fence" situation.

 

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Posted: 10/4/2012 12:36 PM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


On a side note, I was golfing east of Denver yesterday and Air Force One flew real close to us as it came in to land. That plane is huge and it was an impressive sight.
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Posted: 10/4/2012 12:57 PM

RE: My Views on Debate One 



pdono wrote: On a side note, I was golfing east of Denver yesterday and Air Force One flew real close to us as it came in to land. That plane is huge and it was an impressive sight.
  That is so cool.They say its a 767 or 747 jumbo i think or sumtin like that?...but when i look at it , it always appears to be some kind of  jumbo jumbo highbred.That sound about right? Im jealous.

Last edited 10/4/2012 12:58 PM by sheslion

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Posted: 10/4/2012 1:01 PM

RE: My Views on Debate One 



sheslion wrote:
pdono wrote: On a side note, I was golfing east of Denver yesterday and Air Force One flew real close to us as it came in to land. That plane is huge and it was an impressive sight.
  That is so cool.They say its a 767 or 747 jumbo i think or sumtin like that?...but when i look at it , it always appears to be some kind of  jumbo jumbo highbred.That sound about right? Im jealous.
Nope, just a standard 747.  But that's a pretty darn big bird to start with.

 

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Posted: 10/4/2012 1:03 PM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


Sounds like it is a modified 747. It seemed like it was flying really low and slow. I was surprised by that.
We did have a steady and smooth breeze form the east yesterday and that probably gave it plenty of lift effect when it was landing.

Air Force One is a Boeing 747-200B that has been modified to meet presidential requirements. The aircraft is known by the radio call sign used when the president is aboard: Air Force One.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/af1/

Air Force One
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Posted: 10/4/2012 1:17 PM

RE: My Views on Debate One 



pdono wrote: Sounds like it is a modified 747. It seemed like it was flying really low and slow. I was surprised by that.
We did have a steady and smooth breeze form the east yesterday and that probably gave it plenty of lift effect when it was landing.

Air Force One is a Boeing 747-200B that has been modified to meet presidential requirements. The aircraft is known by the radio call sign used when the president is aboard: Air Force One.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/af1/




Right, but "modified" as in the guts of it.  Not a "jumbo jumbo" where they actually did something to the airframe to make it larger.  A 747 is just a big damn plane.

 

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Posted: 10/4/2012 1:42 PM

RE: My Views on Debate One 


I thought Obama won on substance and depth of explanation.

 

Which substance and explanation was that ??

The transcripts are available.  I'd be interested to see what you considered "substance".  I didn't hear much that I hadn't heard before (standard liberal talking points for the last few decades).


I thought Romney dominated when it came to substance.  He gave very clear points of exactly what he intended to do when elected.  He did this numerous times in various topics. 

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