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2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989

Posted: 5/21/2012 1:45 PM

2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


Let that sink in for a bit. 

2,000 folks had been doing prison time for stuff they just plain didn't do with the average time served at 11 years. 

Scary stuff out there folks and if you think that's everybody, you're crazy.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012...esearchers-say/
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Posted: 5/21/2012 2:19 PM

Re: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


Overzealous prosecutors.   "Winning" is more important than the "truth".

Any prosecutor/police that specifically withhold evidence because it could hurt their chances of a conviction should be charged criminally.

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Posted: 5/21/2012 7:35 PM

Re: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 



JCHeff1979 wrote: Let that sink in for a bit. 

2,000 folks had been doing prison time for stuff they just plain didn't do with the average time served at 11 years. 

Scary stuff out there folks and if you think that's everybody, you're crazy.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012...esearchers-say/
Bummer to be sure.  I'd say the number of real DB criminals who have either been let off with a slap on the wrist or let off due to technicality is much much higher.  That's why most felons who are allowed to go on to victimize others, have prior records.  But hey, I'm the guy that wants lie detection technology (all of it, in battery fashion) to be admissible in court as part of the equasion, so... noidea

Let me guess.  You aren't here for the Alcohol or Tobacco...
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Posted: 5/21/2012 11:39 PM

Re: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 



WestCoastLionsFan wrote:

Overzealous prosecutors.   "Winning" is more important than the "truth".

Any prosecutor/police that specifically withhold evidence because it could hurt their chances of a conviction should be charged criminally.

clearly a big part of it.

this is why I switched on the death penalty....



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Posted: 5/22/2012 7:15 AM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


Speaking of prison.....

I was riding into work Friday morning and heard this story on NPR/BBC Radio....
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18121914

sun! sun! sun!!! burn! burn! burn!!!
i will get you soon, soon, soon!
i am the lizard king.. i CAN do anything..

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Posted: 5/22/2012 7:50 AM

Re: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


I hear that a lot about "technicalities", and not just from you, but since you brought it up, what do you mean by "technicalities"? Are you referencing anything you've seen in person, or  specific case or is it just more of a gut feeling about the system. 


3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Let that sink in for a bit. 

2,000 folks had been doing prison time for stuff they just plain didn't do with the average time served at 11 years. 

Scary stuff out there folks and if you think that's everybody, you're crazy.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012...esearchers-say/
Bummer to be sure.  I'd say the number of real DB criminals who have either been let off with a slap on the wrist or let off due to technicality is much much higher.  That's why most felons who are allowed to go on to victimize others, have prior records.  But hey, I'm the guy that wants lie detection technology (all of it, in battery fashion) to be admissible in court as part of the equasion, so... noidea
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Posted: 5/22/2012 8:41 AM

Re: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 



JCHeff1979 wrote: Let that sink in for a bit. 

2,000 folks had been doing prison time for stuff they just plain didn't do with the average time served at 11 years. 

Scary stuff out there folks and if you think that's everybody, you're crazy.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012...esearchers-say/
I hope they're not all your clients?tongue

In the last century, governments killed 260 million of their own citizens. Logical conclusion: Ban governments.
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Posted: 5/22/2012 9:17 AM

Re: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 



JCHeff1979 wrote: I hear that a lot about "technicalities", and not just from you, but since you brought it up, what do you mean by "technicalities"? Are you referencing anything you've seen in person, or  specific case or is it just more of a gut feeling about the system. 


3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Let that sink in for a bit. 

2,000 folks had been doing prison time for stuff they just plain didn't do with the average time served at 11 years. 

Scary stuff out there folks and if you think that's everybody, you're crazy.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012...esearchers-say/
Bummer to be sure.  I'd say the number of real DB criminals who have either been let off with a slap on the wrist or let off due to technicality is much much higher.  That's why most felons who are allowed to go on to victimize others, have prior records.  But hey, I'm the guy that wants lie detection technology (all of it, in battery fashion) to be admissible in court as part of the equasion, so... noidea
OJ is a perfect example.  He murdered two people with a knife in horrible, brutal fashion.  He was acquitted.  I could give a crap if there were racist cops who were complete idiots who had a slam dunk case with tons of physical evidence plus motive, yet because they wanted to "make sure" they got this celebrity, they planted additional evidence that was totally unnecessary to convict the guy.  Result?  Acquitted.  Do you honestly believe that OJ didn't kill Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman in cold blood???  As you say, I'm sure one with access to data could "go on and on."

If KSM was tried in civilain court with the backdated revision on torture, do you think he could be convicted?  Do you not think KSM was instrumental in masterminding the largest foreign attack on our country in history??  No.

USS Cole bomber.  Convicted on ONE count of "destruction of property" or something along those lines.  Seriously???  I'm sure the parents of the victims feel real good about that ONE charge that stuck.

Again if felons didn't get off on technicallity, how in hades are there "multiple" felons roaming the streets?

I think there are plenty of "overzealous" defense attourneys that care nothing about the truth, but only care about "winning." ohlord

Let me guess.  You aren't here for the Alcohol or Tobacco...
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Posted: 5/22/2012 9:53 AM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


While I really feel horrible for those who the system has failed. I feel worse about those the system lets go free. I'll bet that number is one hundred times (minimum) the number who are erroneously (I used that word specifically for Lyinfan) convicted.

In the last century, governments killed 260 million of their own citizens. Logical conclusion: Ban governments.

Last edited 5/22/2012 9:53 AM by notfishinsunday

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Posted: 5/22/2012 10:40 AM

Re: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


Ok, but I don't really see those as "technicalities". OJ had a full trial to a jury verdict. That isn't a "technicality" that's the state failing to meet it's burden, or maybe an indictment of the whole Jury system. 

As for KSM, I don't know what would have happened, but if his confession were kept out because it was obtained in violation of Federal Law,  I wouldn't really call that a "technicality" either. It's not like they misspelled the addrees on the warrant or something (btw, that won't keep evidence out), it would have been kept out because it violated the Federal Law and his constitutional rights (note: I am not saying that the stuff they did to him DID violate any law or violate anyone's rights, I'm just responding to your hypo which presumes that the 'enhanced interrogation' techniques would be seen as torture.) 

In my mind there is a preception that criminals are just walking out of jail because cops are bad at paperwork and that that somehow balances the scales for the 2,000 people who were wrongfully convicted.

That isn't the case. OJ didn't get off on a technicality, he was acquited after what, a two week trial? You and I might not like the outcome, but it sure wasn't a "technicality" that got him off. Unless, of course, presumed innocence is a "technicality". 


3RDRGR wrote:

JCHeff1979 wrote: I hear that a lot about "technicalities", and not just from you, but since you brought it up, what do you mean by "technicalities"? Are you referencing anything you've seen in person, or  specific case or is it just more of a gut feeling about the system. 


3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Let that sink in for a bit. 

2,000 folks had been doing prison time for stuff they just plain didn't do with the average time served at 11 years. 

Scary stuff out there folks and if you think that's everybody, you're crazy.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012...esearchers-say/
Bummer to be sure.  I'd say the number of real DB criminals who have either been let off with a slap on the wrist or let off due to technicality is much much higher.  That's why most felons who are allowed to go on to victimize others, have prior records.  But hey, I'm the guy that wants lie detection technology (all of it, in battery fashion) to be admissible in court as part of the equasion, so... noidea
OJ is a perfect example.  He murdered two people with a knife in horrible, brutal fashion.  He was acquitted.  I could give a crap if there were racist cops who were complete idiots who had a slam dunk case with tons of physical evidence plus motive, yet because they wanted to "make sure" they got this celebrity, they planted additional evidence that was totally unnecessary to convict the guy.  Result?  Acquitted.  Do you honestly believe that OJ didn't kill Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman in cold blood???  As you say, I'm sure one with access to data could "go on and on."

If KSM was tried in civilain court with the backdated revision on torture, do you think he could be convicted?  Do you not think KSM was instrumental in masterminding the largest foreign attack on our country in history??  No.

USS Cole bomber.  Convicted on ONE count of "destruction of property" or something along those lines.  Seriously???  I'm sure the parents of the victims feel real good about that ONE charge that stuck.

Again if felons didn't get off on technicallity, how in hades are there "multiple" felons roaming the streets?

I think there are plenty of "overzealous" defense attourneys that care nothing about the truth, but only care about "winning." ohlord
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Posted: 5/22/2012 11:26 AM

Re: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


I would also like to add that Ex-cons getting out of prison on Parole isn't a technicality either..  The prison system actually rehabilitating people is another issue..  I also don't like the inconsistencies in sentencing guidelines from judge to judge..   For the same crime one judge will give you probation while another judge has a hair up their ass and sends you to prison just doesn't make sense to me at all..
JCHeff1979 wrote: Ok, but I don't really see those as "technicalities". OJ had a full trial to a jury verdict. That isn't a "technicality" that's the state failing to meet it's burden, or maybe an indictment of the whole Jury system. 

As for KSM, I don't know what would have happened, but if his confession were kept out because it was obtained in violation of Federal Law,  I wouldn't really call that a "technicality" either. It's not like they misspelled the addrees on the warrant or something (btw, that won't keep evidence out), it would have been kept out because it violated the Federal Law and his constitutional rights (note: I am not saying that the stuff they did to him DID violate any law or violate anyone's rights, I'm just responding to your hypo which presumes that the 'enhanced interrogation' techniques would be seen as torture.) 

In my mind there is a preception that criminals are just walking out of jail because cops are bad at paperwork and that that somehow balances the scales for the 2,000 people who were wrongfully convicted.

That isn't the case. OJ didn't get off on a technicality, he was acquited after what, a two week trial? You and I might not like the outcome, but it sure wasn't a "technicality" that got him off. Unless, of course, presumed innocence is a "technicality". 


3RDRGR wrote:

JCHeff1979 wrote: I hear that a lot about "technicalities", and not just from you, but since you brought it up, what do you mean by "technicalities"? Are you referencing anything you've seen in person, or  specific case or is it just more of a gut feeling about the system. 


3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Let that sink in for a bit. 

2,000 folks had been doing prison time for stuff they just plain didn't do with the average time served at 11 years. 

Scary stuff out there folks and if you think that's everybody, you're crazy.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012...esearchers-say/
Bummer to be sure.  I'd say the number of real DB criminals who have either been let off with a slap on the wrist or let off due to technicality is much much higher.  That's why most felons who are allowed to go on to victimize others, have prior records.  But hey, I'm the guy that wants lie detection technology (all of it, in battery fashion) to be admissible in court as part of the equasion, so... noidea
OJ is a perfect example.  He murdered two people with a knife in horrible, brutal fashion.  He was acquitted.  I could give a crap if there were racist cops who were complete idiots who had a slam dunk case with tons of physical evidence plus motive, yet because they wanted to "make sure" they got this celebrity, they planted additional evidence that was totally unnecessary to convict the guy.  Result?  Acquitted.  Do you honestly believe that OJ didn't kill Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman in cold blood???  As you say, I'm sure one with access to data could "go on and on."

If KSM was tried in civilain court with the backdated revision on torture, do you think he could be convicted?  Do you not think KSM was instrumental in masterminding the largest foreign attack on our country in history??  No.

USS Cole bomber.  Convicted on ONE count of "destruction of property" or something along those lines.  Seriously???  I'm sure the parents of the victims feel real good about that ONE charge that stuck.

Again if felons didn't get off on technicallity, how in hades are there "multiple" felons roaming the streets?

I think there are plenty of "overzealous" defense attourneys that care nothing about the truth, but only care about "winning." ohlord
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Posted: 5/22/2012 3:01 PM

Re: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 



JCHeff1979 wrote: Ok, but I don't really see those as "technicalities". OJ had a full trial to a jury verdict. That isn't a "technicality" that's the state failing to meet it's burden, or maybe an indictment of the whole Jury system. 

-Well, perhaps we are falling into the semantics zone and your definition of technicality is I'm sure technically correct. tongue  That said, there was more factual physical evidence and motive then you can hope to have in most murder trials.  But the keystone cops "added" to what was there.  The view of the jury IMHO was that if ANY of it was tampered with, then ALL of it has to be automatically thrown out.  To me that was the "technicallity."  Not that plenty of factual evidence that was not tampered with was there, as was tens of thousands of dollars worth of motive, but it didn't matter.  The justice system required that the jury ignore all the factual evidence and it was game, set, match.  A murderer walked however you want to quantify that.

As for KSM, I don't know what would have happened, but if his confession were kept out because it was obtained in violation of Federal Law,  I wouldn't really call that a "technicality" either.

-I would, because it's a BS excuse.  It wasn't just the confession, it's a mountain of existing intelligence that was gathered and continues to gather that implecates KSM.  I guarentee if it went to civilian court in the US with a slick willie lawyer (sorry) given to him, it would be all about poor KSM, you were treated harshly, therefore we must let you go.  Again, yes he did do it, but because we roughed you up (technicallity) all of that doesn't matter.

 It's not like they misspelled the addrees on the warrant or something (btw, that won't keep evidence out), it would have been kept out because it violated the Federal Law and his constitutional rights (note: I am not saying that the stuff they did to him DID violate any law or violate anyone's rights, I'm just responding to your hypo which presumes that the 'enhanced interrogation' techniques would be seen as torture.) 

-Slow down man.  This is why there is no way in hades you can blend foreign enemy combatents (Did you see the FBI Director who, uhhh, uhhhed his way through the question of "Is KSM an enemy combatant?" and he refused to be the one making that call either way???) with our court system.  In our system, you are provided with innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.  That is a luxury bestoed on US citizens ONLY.  (Or should)  The US constitution should have zip to do with KSM.  He is not a US citizen and should be bound by Geneva or Hague Doctrin, not Constitutional protections.  Why do you think Obama is on a hunt and kill spree.  Because he got clowned with the belief that if you give a terrorist like the Cole bomber a civilian US trial, a lawyer is going to get him out of a great many sins.  That backlash from the public on his trial is what changed Obama's strategy.  The problem with his strategy is dead terrorists tell no tails.  Intelligence counts on those tails.  That is why the Bush program yeilded information that led to other terrorists and now that program is stunted in it's results. 

In my mind there is a preception that criminals are just walking out of jail because cops are bad at paperwork and that that somehow balances the scales for the 2,000 people who were wrongfully convicted.

-It's more because of idiot judges and overcrowding due to the necessity of housing pot dealers and insain rules regarding the death penalty, so they have to let out rapists earlyTell me one good reason why Charles Manson still costs 40K plus per year to house??  Kill him!

That isn't the case. OJ didn't get off on a technicality, he was acquited after what, a two week trial? You and I might not like the outcome, but it sure wasn't a "technicality" that got him off. Unless, of course, presumed innocence is a "technicality". 

-It was because of the keystone cops.  If they had done their jobs without modifying some of the evidence, he would have been convicted IMHO.  He was proven guilty, but the proof wasn't allowed, because of a..... technicality.  He was not innocent.  No way, no how.


3RDRGR wrote:

JCHeff1979 wrote: I hear that a lot about "technicalities", and not just from you, but since you brought it up, what do you mean by "technicalities"? Are you referencing anything you've seen in person, or  specific case or is it just more of a gut feeling about the system. 


3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Let that sink in for a bit. 

2,000 folks had been doing prison time for stuff they just plain didn't do with the average time served at 11 years. 

Scary stuff out there folks and if you think that's everybody, you're crazy.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012...esearchers-say/
Bummer to be sure.  I'd say the number of real DB criminals who have either been let off with a slap on the wrist or let off due to technicality is much much higher.  That's why most felons who are allowed to go on to victimize others, have prior records.  But hey, I'm the guy that wants lie detection technology (all of it, in battery fashion) to be admissible in court as part of the equasion, so... noidea
OJ is a perfect example.  He murdered two people with a knife in horrible, brutal fashion.  He was acquitted.  I could give a crap if there were racist cops who were complete idiots who had a slam dunk case with tons of physical evidence plus motive, yet because they wanted to "make sure" they got this celebrity, they planted additional evidence that was totally unnecessary to convict the guy.  Result?  Acquitted.  Do you honestly believe that OJ didn't kill Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman in cold blood???  As you say, I'm sure one with access to data could "go on and on."

If KSM was tried in civilain court with the backdated revision on torture, do you think he could be convicted?  Do you not think KSM was instrumental in masterminding the largest foreign attack on our country in history??  No.

USS Cole bomber.  Convicted on ONE count of "destruction of property" or something along those lines.  Seriously???  I'm sure the parents of the victims feel real good about that ONE charge that stuck.

Again if felons didn't get off on technicallity, how in hades are there "multiple" felons roaming the streets?

I think there are plenty of "overzealous" defense attourneys that care nothing about the truth, but only care about "winning." ohlord

Let me guess.  You aren't here for the Alcohol or Tobacco...
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Posted: 5/22/2012 3:05 PM

Re: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


2,000 folks had been doing prison time for stuff they just plain didn't do with the average time served at 11 years. 

Scary stuff out there folks and if you think that's everybody, you're crazy.

The flip side is the number of murders committed by previous convicted violent felons.

While I can "hope" for a perfect system, given the choice between the fate of my loved ones in the hands of our current "imperfect" justice system OR a previously convicted violent felon......

But then again, I'm a "one strike" type of guy.  I believe in a swift death penalty for almost all violent felonies.
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Posted: 5/22/2012 4:13 PM

Re: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


I disagree, WCLF. Not that we don't have a HUGE recidivism problem....we do. And it's scary. 

But that isn't really a "wrongful conviction" or really a criminal justice system problem. That's a penal institution/rehabilitation problem.

People who do bad things should be locked up and not let out willy nilly. People who don't do bad things shouldn't be locked up at all, no matter what other people did. The two aren't really related. 

We don't reduce the number of bad people who go free by keeping the wrong people locked up "to be on the safe side". If anything, we make the situation worse because the people who actually did do the crime are still on the streets or get out sooner because someone else is doing their time.


WestCoastLionsFan wrote: 2,000 folks had been doing prison time for stuff they just plain didn't do with the average time served at 11 years. 

Scary stuff out there folks and if you think that's everybody, you're crazy.

The flip side is the number of murders committed by previous convicted violent felons.

While I can "hope" for a perfect system, given the choice between the fate of my loved ones in the hands of our current "imperfect" justice system OR a previously convicted violent felon......

But then again, I'm a "one strike" type of guy.  I believe in a swift death penalty for almost all violent felonies.
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Posted: 5/22/2012 5:36 PM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


Isn't it common knowledge that most prison inmates are in for something they didn't do?
"Oh that's great"
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Posted: 5/22/2012 6:14 PM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 



BigWillieStyle wrote: Isn't it common knowledge that most prison inmates are in for something they didn't do?
i'm pretty sure that is not common knowledge what so ever.

edit:  and i've been through the court system, whether it was the BS DUI i got (wasn't drunk, wasn't stoned, wasn't anything) or when i was actually doing something illegal, and spent 8 months in jail for it.  i watched a constant revolving door of idiots go through.  and yes, they all did it.  100% of the time the people that were getting arrested and re-arrested did their crime.  since 1989, 23 years, "only" 2000 people were wrongly convicted, well, how many millions were rightfully convicted?

Last edited 5/22/2012 6:24 PM by xxdeadheadxxx

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Posted: 5/22/2012 7:19 PM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


Sucks if your one of the 2000....
xxdeadheadxxx wrote:
BigWillieStyle wrote: Isn't it common knowledge that most prison inmates are in for something they didn't do?
i'm pretty sure that is not common knowledge what so ever.

edit:  and i've been through the court system, whether it was the BS DUI i got (wasn't drunk, wasn't stoned, wasn't anything) or when i was actually doing something illegal, and spent 8 months in jail for it.  i watched a constant revolving door of idiots go through.  and yes, they all did it.  100% of the time the people that were getting arrested and re-arrested did their crime.  since 1989, 23 years, "only" 2000 people were wrongly convicted, well, how many millions were rightfully convicted?
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Posted: 5/22/2012 7:34 PM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


yeah i bet it does. but it is not a perfect system. **** happens and sometimes you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. but i can tell you from personal experience, from the idiots i've met personally, this is the exception, not the rule.
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Posted: 5/22/2012 8:31 PM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 



JCHeff1979 wrote: Sucks if your one of the 2000....
xxdeadheadxxx wrote:
BigWillieStyle wrote: Isn't it common knowledge that most prison inmates are in for something they didn't do?
i'm pretty sure that is not common knowledge what so ever.

edit:  and i've been through the court system, whether it was the BS DUI i got (wasn't drunk, wasn't stoned, wasn't anything) or when i was actually doing something illegal, and spent 8 months in jail for it.  i watched a constant revolving door of idiots go through.  and yes, they all did it.  100% of the time the people that were getting arrested and re-arrested did their crime.  since 1989, 23 years, "only" 2000 people were wrongly convicted, well, how many millions were rightfully convicted?
Or one of the 200,000 who are victimized by a violent felon who got released due to good behavior... noidea

Let me guess.  You aren't here for the Alcohol or Tobacco...
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Posted: 5/22/2012 9:47 PM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


Again, I'm not sure how the two are related.....
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Sucks if your one of the 2000....
xxdeadheadxxx wrote:
BigWillieStyle wrote: Isn't it common knowledge that most prison inmates are in for something they didn't do?
i'm pretty sure that is not common knowledge what so ever.

edit:  and i've been through the court system, whether it was the BS DUI i got (wasn't drunk, wasn't stoned, wasn't anything) or when i was actually doing something illegal, and spent 8 months in jail for it.  i watched a constant revolving door of idiots go through.  and yes, they all did it.  100% of the time the people that were getting arrested and re-arrested did their crime.  since 1989, 23 years, "only" 2000 people were wrongly convicted, well, how many millions were rightfully convicted?
Or one of the 200,000 who are victimized by a violent felon who got released due to good behavior... noidea
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Posted: 5/23/2012 6:38 AM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


JCHeff1979 - We've heard your complaint but have seen nothing offered as a solution.

I offered..

Criminal charges for prosecutors that withhold evidence.

Swift death penalty for dangerous felons.
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Posted: 5/23/2012 8:23 AM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


I absolutely agree with WCLF on prosecutors. I disagree on the death penalty, especially in light of these exonerations. 
WestCoastLionsFan wrote: JCHeff1979 - We've heard your complaint but have seen nothing offered as a solution.

I offered..

Criminal charges for prosecutors that withhold evidence.

Swift death penalty for dangerous felons.
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Posted: 5/23/2012 8:45 AM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 



JCHeff1979 wrote: I absolutely agree with WCLF on prosecutors. I disagree on the death penalty, especially in light of these exonerations. 
WestCoastLionsFan wrote: JCHeff1979 - We've heard your complaint but have seen nothing offered as a solution.

I offered..

Criminal charges for prosecutors that withhold evidence.

Swift death penalty for dangerous felons.
I definitely agree on the death penalty for repeat dangerous felons. The first time may have been a mistake, odds decrease dramatically the second time.

In the last century, governments killed 260 million of their own citizens. Logical conclusion: Ban governments.
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Posted: 5/23/2012 9:00 AM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 



JCHeff1979 wrote: Again, I'm not sure how the two are related.....
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Sucks if your one of the 2000....
xxdeadheadxxx wrote:
BigWillieStyle wrote: Isn't it common knowledge that most prison inmates are in for something they didn't do?
i'm pretty sure that is not common knowledge what so ever.

edit:  and i've been through the court system, whether it was the BS DUI i got (wasn't drunk, wasn't stoned, wasn't anything) or when i was actually doing something illegal, and spent 8 months in jail for it.  i watched a constant revolving door of idiots go through.  and yes, they all did it.  100% of the time the people that were getting arrested and re-arrested did their crime.  since 1989, 23 years, "only" 2000 people were wrongly convicted, well, how many millions were rightfully convicted?
Or one of the 200,000 who are victimized by a violent felon who got released due to good behavior... noidea
Then you are blind.  They are totally related because they are BOTH the result of the current system we choose to engage in this country, at this time.  It leads to a few mistakes on the bad side, but it also leads to many many more failures and letting out people who should not be.  Or not convicting those that should be because the burden of proof is so high.  It could be much, much worse.  Say everyone convicted of murder gets their head chopped of within 5 days.  THEN you find out WHOOPS... the dude was actually innocent, and we can't put humpty dumpty back together again.  But on the "plus" side, overcrowding wouldn't be an issue anymore and there would be ZERO recidivism now wouldn't there???  pokewithstick.gif

Let me guess.  You aren't here for the Alcohol or Tobacco...
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Posted: 5/23/2012 10:37 AM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


It's like if you have a car, and you notice that you have an exhaust leak. That's a problem you want to have fixed. The car also has a transmission that is slipping. That is also a problem you want to have fixed.****

Fixing the exhaust leak won't have an effect on the transmission. It won't make it worse, it won't make it better but if you address the leak you will at least  have fixed something than needed fixing. Maybe you think the transmission problem is worse. Ok, but thinking so doesn't make the exhaust leak go away. Nor does fixing the transmission. 

Fixing the flaws in our system that cause people to be wrongfully convicted won't make recidivism a bigger problem. It won't increase the number of actually guilty felons who get out of jail and repeat their crimes.

Now, you may just say "the car is a lemon and we should get something else", which is fine. But you have to make sure your new model is at least better than your old one. 

I'm not saying that we don't have a big recidivism problem on our hands. We do. We need to fix it. I also think that we have a big prosecutorial misconduct/wrongful conviction problem on our hands. We need to fix that one to. 

My hunch is that the thought of a "revolving door" jail is being used as a bogey man to scare off the pursuit of true prosecutorial reform. 

What is most puzzling to me is that the more libertarian (small "l" I'm not talking about Crowdnoise here) folks on here seem to also be the most OK with giving the state the benefit of the doubt when it comes to literally denying the citizenry its liberty and even in some cases, its very life. 

Some folks get all up in arms when Michelle Obama says "hey, we should probably ban soda" but will then shrug and say "meh, wrong place, wrong time" when they learn that 2000 people were incarcerated, under the power of the state, for an average of ELEVEN YEARS for something they simply didn't do. Something someone else did. 

It just doesn't add up for me. noidea

**** DISCLAIMER: I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Again, I'm not sure how the two are related.....
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Sucks if your one of the 2000....
xxdeadheadxxx wrote:
BigWillieStyle wrote: Isn't it common knowledge that most prison inmates are in for something they didn't do?
i'm pretty sure that is not common knowledge what so ever.

edit:  and i've been through the court system, whether it was the BS DUI i got (wasn't drunk, wasn't stoned, wasn't anything) or when i was actually doing something illegal, and spent 8 months in jail for it.  i watched a constant revolving door of idiots go through.  and yes, they all did it.  100% of the time the people that were getting arrested and re-arrested did their crime.  since 1989, 23 years, "only" 2000 people were wrongly convicted, well, how many millions were rightfully convicted?
Or one of the 200,000 who are victimized by a violent felon who got released due to good behavior... noidea
Then you are blind.  They are totally related because they are BOTH the result of the current system we choose to engage in this country, at this time.  It leads to a few mistakes on the bad side, but it also leads to many many more failures and letting out people who should not be.  Or not convicting those that should be because the burden of proof is so high.  It could be much, much worse.  Say everyone convicted of murder gets their head chopped of within 5 days.  THEN you find out WHOOPS... the dude was actually innocent, and we can't put humpty dumpty back together again.  But on the "plus" side, overcrowding wouldn't be an issue anymore and there would be ZERO recidivism now wouldn't there???  pokewithstick.gif
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Posted: 5/23/2012 10:55 AM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 



JCHeff1979 wrote: It's like if you have a car, and you notice that you have an exhaust leak. That's a problem you want to have fixed. The car also has a transmission that is slipping. That is also a problem you want to have fixed.****

Fixing the exhaust leak won't have an effect on the transmission. It won't make it worse, it won't make it better but if you address the leak you will at least  have fixed something than needed fixing. Maybe you think the transmission problem is worse. Ok, but thinking so doesn't make the exhaust leak go away. Nor does fixing the transmission. 

Fixing the flaws in our system that cause people to be wrongfully convicted won't make recidivism a bigger problem. It won't increase the number of actually guilty felons who get out of jail and repeat their crimes.

Now, you may just say "the car is a lemon and we should get something else", which is fine. But you have to make sure your new model is at least better than your old one. 

I'm not saying that we don't have a big recidivism problem on our hands. We do. We need to fix it. I also think that we have a big prosecutorial misconduct/wrongful conviction problem on our hands. We need to fix that one to. 

My hunch is that the thought of a "revolving door" jail is being used as a bogey man to scare off the pursuit of true prosecutorial reform. 

What is most puzzling to me is that the more libertarian (small "l" I'm not talking about Crowdnoise here) folks on here seem to also be the most OK with giving the state the benefit of the doubt when it comes to literally denying the citizenry its liberty and even in some cases, its very life. 

Some folks get all up in arms when Michelle Obama says "hey, we should probably ban soda" but will then shrug and say "meh, wrong place, wrong time" when they learn that 2000 people were incarcerated, under the power of the state, for an average of ELEVEN YEARS for something they simply didn't do. Something someone else did. 

It just doesn't add up for me. noidea

**** DISCLAIMER: I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Again, I'm not sure how the two are related.....
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Sucks if your one of the 2000....
xxdeadheadxxx wrote:
BigWillieStyle wrote: Isn't it common knowledge that most prison inmates are in for something they didn't do?
i'm pretty sure that is not common knowledge what so ever.

edit:  and i've been through the court system, whether it was the BS DUI i got (wasn't drunk, wasn't stoned, wasn't anything) or when i was actually doing something illegal, and spent 8 months in jail for it.  i watched a constant revolving door of idiots go through.  and yes, they all did it.  100% of the time the people that were getting arrested and re-arrested did their crime.  since 1989, 23 years, "only" 2000 people were wrongly convicted, well, how many millions were rightfully convicted?
Or one of the 200,000 who are victimized by a violent felon who got released due to good behavior... noidea
Then you are blind.  They are totally related because they are BOTH the result of the current system we choose to engage in this country, at this time.  It leads to a few mistakes on the bad side, but it also leads to many many more failures and letting out people who should not be.  Or not convicting those that should be because the burden of proof is so high.  It could be much, much worse.  Say everyone convicted of murder gets their head chopped of within 5 days.  THEN you find out WHOOPS... the dude was actually innocent, and we can't put humpty dumpty back together again.  But on the "plus" side, overcrowding wouldn't be an issue anymore and there would be ZERO recidivism now wouldn't there???  pokewithstick.gif
I get that JC, I really do.  That is why I would trust a battery ie: Poly, Realtime MRI, Facial Recognition and Behavioral lie detection technology over "yes I saw that guy" from 40 yards away in the rain and darkness.  I spoke at length with a 12 year Polygraph officer years back.  He said, yes there are people who are guilty who are so well trained, or so completely at ease with lying that could pass his test (just beep) and fool him.  But he said IF you were innocent he felt confident he could exhonorate you close to 100% of the time.  That would go a long, long way towards your transmission slipping problem right there.  The thought process of "it's not perfect, so we shouldn't admit it in court" is complete BS when it is perfectly clear the current process is very much "not perfect."  I'm not saying scrap the current system.  I'm saying keep it AND add the lie detection battery process in addition to.  Juries should hear that part as well and it would vastly improve our current system IMO.  Instead of dumping billions into the prison system.  Dump it into improving lie detection technology.

Let me guess.  You aren't here for the Alcohol or Tobacco...
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Posted: 5/23/2012 11:28 AM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


I'm actually ok with Lie Detector Tests being  admissible, so long as Jury is given full disclosure as to their faults and error rates. As you say, they're far more reliable than eye witness testimony and we let that in for weighing.

My problem with LDTs currently is that they are done by cops, who are in the business of clearing cases and have an unsettling tendency to decide on a theory of the case and then make the evidence fit that theory instead of the other way around. 

Treat LDTs as admissble and have "independent experts" do the test. Prosecution get's one expert and defense get's one expert and then let the jury weigh the evidence. noidea I don't think that will solve it, but it sure would be a good start. Crim Defense lawyers will have kittens, but they almost always have kittens whenever anything is deemed admissible. 
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: It's like if you have a car, and you notice that you have an exhaust leak. That's a problem you want to have fixed. The car also has a transmission that is slipping. That is also a problem you want to have fixed.****

Fixing the exhaust leak won't have an effect on the transmission. It won't make it worse, it won't make it better but if you address the leak you will at least  have fixed something than needed fixing. Maybe you think the transmission problem is worse. Ok, but thinking so doesn't make the exhaust leak go away. Nor does fixing the transmission. 

Fixing the flaws in our system that cause people to be wrongfully convicted won't make recidivism a bigger problem. It won't increase the number of actually guilty felons who get out of jail and repeat their crimes.

Now, you may just say "the car is a lemon and we should get something else", which is fine. But you have to make sure your new model is at least better than your old one. 

I'm not saying that we don't have a big recidivism problem on our hands. We do. We need to fix it. I also think that we have a big prosecutorial misconduct/wrongful conviction problem on our hands. We need to fix that one to. 

My hunch is that the thought of a "revolving door" jail is being used as a bogey man to scare off the pursuit of true prosecutorial reform. 

What is most puzzling to me is that the more libertarian (small "l" I'm not talking about Crowdnoise here) folks on here seem to also be the most OK with giving the state the benefit of the doubt when it comes to literally denying the citizenry its liberty and even in some cases, its very life. 

Some folks get all up in arms when Michelle Obama says "hey, we should probably ban soda" but will then shrug and say "meh, wrong place, wrong time" when they learn that 2000 people were incarcerated, under the power of the state, for an average of ELEVEN YEARS for something they simply didn't do. Something someone else did. 

It just doesn't add up for me. noidea

**** DISCLAIMER: I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Again, I'm not sure how the two are related.....
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Sucks if your one of the 2000....
xxdeadheadxxx wrote:
BigWillieStyle wrote: Isn't it common knowledge that most prison inmates are in for something they didn't do?
i'm pretty sure that is not common knowledge what so ever.

edit:  and i've been through the court system, whether it was the BS DUI i got (wasn't drunk, wasn't stoned, wasn't anything) or when i was actually doing something illegal, and spent 8 months in jail for it.  i watched a constant revolving door of idiots go through.  and yes, they all did it.  100% of the time the people that were getting arrested and re-arrested did their crime.  since 1989, 23 years, "only" 2000 people were wrongly convicted, well, how many millions were rightfully convicted?
Or one of the 200,000 who are victimized by a violent felon who got released due to good behavior... noidea
Then you are blind.  They are totally related because they are BOTH the result of the current system we choose to engage in this country, at this time.  It leads to a few mistakes on the bad side, but it also leads to many many more failures and letting out people who should not be.  Or not convicting those that should be because the burden of proof is so high.  It could be much, much worse.  Say everyone convicted of murder gets their head chopped of within 5 days.  THEN you find out WHOOPS... the dude was actually innocent, and we can't put humpty dumpty back together again.  But on the "plus" side, overcrowding wouldn't be an issue anymore and there would be ZERO recidivism now wouldn't there???  pokewithstick.gif
I get that JC, I really do.  That is why I would trust a battery ie: Poly, Realtime MRI, Facial Recognition and Behavioral lie detection technology over "yes I saw that guy" from 40 yards away in the rain and darkness.  I spoke at length with a 12 year Polygraph officer years back.  He said, yes there are people who are guilty who are so well trained, or so completely at ease with lying that could pass his test (just beep) and fool him.  But he said IF you were innocent he felt confident he could exhonorate you close to 100% of the time.  That would go a long, long way towards your transmission slipping problem right there.  The thought process of "it's not perfect, so we shouldn't admit it in court" is complete BS when it is perfectly clear the current process is very much "not perfect."  I'm not saying scrap the current system.  I'm saying keep it AND add the lie detection battery process in addition to.  Juries should hear that part as well and it would vastly improve our current system IMO.  Instead of dumping billions into the prison system.  Dump it into improving lie detection technology.
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Posted: 5/23/2012 12:14 PM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 



JCHeff1979 wrote: I'm actually ok with Lie Detector Tests being  admissible, so long as Jury is given full disclosure as to their faults and error rates. As you say, they're far more reliable than eye witness testimony and we let that in for weighing.

My problem with LDTs currently is that they are done by cops, who are in the business of clearing cases and have an unsettling tendency to decide on a theory of the case and then make the evidence fit that theory instead of the other way around. 

Treat LDTs as admissble and have "independent experts" do the test. Prosecution get's one expert and defense get's one expert and then let the jury weigh the evidence. noidea I don't think that will solve it, but it sure would be a good start. Crim Defense lawyers will have kittens, but they almost always have kittens whenever anything is deemed admissible. 
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: It's like if you have a car, and you notice that you have an exhaust leak. That's a problem you want to have fixed. The car also has a transmission that is slipping. That is also a problem you want to have fixed.****

Fixing the exhaust leak won't have an effect on the transmission. It won't make it worse, it won't make it better but if you address the leak you will at least  have fixed something than needed fixing. Maybe you think the transmission problem is worse. Ok, but thinking so doesn't make the exhaust leak go away. Nor does fixing the transmission. 

Fixing the flaws in our system that cause people to be wrongfully convicted won't make recidivism a bigger problem. It won't increase the number of actually guilty felons who get out of jail and repeat their crimes.

Now, you may just say "the car is a lemon and we should get something else", which is fine. But you have to make sure your new model is at least better than your old one. 

I'm not saying that we don't have a big recidivism problem on our hands. We do. We need to fix it. I also think that we have a big prosecutorial misconduct/wrongful conviction problem on our hands. We need to fix that one to. 

My hunch is that the thought of a "revolving door" jail is being used as a bogey man to scare off the pursuit of true prosecutorial reform. 

What is most puzzling to me is that the more libertarian (small "l" I'm not talking about Crowdnoise here) folks on here seem to also be the most OK with giving the state the benefit of the doubt when it comes to literally denying the citizenry its liberty and even in some cases, its very life. 

Some folks get all up in arms when Michelle Obama says "hey, we should probably ban soda" but will then shrug and say "meh, wrong place, wrong time" when they learn that 2000 people were incarcerated, under the power of the state, for an average of ELEVEN YEARS for something they simply didn't do. Something someone else did. 

It just doesn't add up for me. noidea

**** DISCLAIMER: I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Again, I'm not sure how the two are related.....
3RDRGR wrote:
JCHeff1979 wrote: Sucks if your one of the 2000....
xxdeadheadxxx wrote:
BigWillieStyle wrote: Isn't it common knowledge that most prison inmates are in for something they didn't do?
i'm pretty sure that is not common knowledge what so ever.

edit:  and i've been through the court system, whether it was the BS DUI i got (wasn't drunk, wasn't stoned, wasn't anything) or when i was actually doing something illegal, and spent 8 months in jail for it.  i watched a constant revolving door of idiots go through.  and yes, they all did it.  100% of the time the people that were getting arrested and re-arrested did their crime.  since 1989, 23 years, "only" 2000 people were wrongly convicted, well, how many millions were rightfully convicted?
Or one of the 200,000 who are victimized by a violent felon who got released due to good behavior... noidea
Then you are blind.  They are totally related because they are BOTH the result of the current system we choose to engage in this country, at this time.  It leads to a few mistakes on the bad side, but it also leads to many many more failures and letting out people who should not be.  Or not convicting those that should be because the burden of proof is so high.  It could be much, much worse.  Say everyone convicted of murder gets their head chopped of within 5 days.  THEN you find out WHOOPS... the dude was actually innocent, and we can't put humpty dumpty back together again.  But on the "plus" side, overcrowding wouldn't be an issue anymore and there would be ZERO recidivism now wouldn't there???  pokewithstick.gif
I get that JC, I really do.  That is why I would trust a battery ie: Poly, Realtime MRI, Facial Recognition and Behavioral lie detection technology over "yes I saw that guy" from 40 yards away in the rain and darkness.  I spoke at length with a 12 year Polygraph officer years back.  He said, yes there are people who are guilty who are so well trained, or so completely at ease with lying that could pass his test (just beep) and fool him.  But he said IF you were innocent he felt confident he could exhonorate you close to 100% of the time.  That would go a long, long way towards your transmission slipping problem right there.  The thought process of "it's not perfect, so we shouldn't admit it in court" is complete BS when it is perfectly clear the current process is very much "not perfect."  I'm not saying scrap the current system.  I'm saying keep it AND add the lie detection battery process in addition to.  Juries should hear that part as well and it would vastly improve our current system IMO.  Instead of dumping billions into the prison system.  Dump it into improving lie detection technology.

Totally down with that.  I know, unfortunately first hand, how cops can retain dash cam recordings for months to be used as evidence when it backs up their accounts of what occurs.  Yet hmmm somehow have accidentally destroy a recording of events within 40 days when their account was a complete and utter lie and was requested by a lawyer. ohlord

 

Independant technicians are the way forward IMO.  They can be trained just like police.  MRI should be done by physicians anyway.  We just need an opportunity to provide relevant data to gain traction for legislation.  That could be accomplished by taking candidates who have been exhonorated of crimes under our current system, provided immunity from further procecution no matter what is found and let them go through the battery.  If 100% pass, we can use that data to reinforce "look, you put this guy away unjustly for 10 years, and the LDT battery would not have allowed that error to occur."

It could also be done with people on death row or life w/o parole folks that have no appeals left, that have nothing to lose and everything to gain anyway.  It would prove that the system could also reinforce guilty parties who are instructed to proclaim thier innocence, when they are really guilty of the crime they committed.  Yes you would have to financially compensate both sides, but who cares.  That would be money well spent to prove the equipment.  We have the data that shows our current state, so you compare that to the results of the new data and IMO it will prove out that there will be a higher degree of accuracy with the LDT battery than the current state.  Gee, can you tell I'm passionate about getting it right?? biggrin


Let me guess.  You aren't here for the Alcohol or Tobacco...
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Posted: 5/23/2012 12:53 PM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


I also have a problem with police being able to lie during an investigation but if the person being interogated lies they are guilty of perjury.
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Posted: 5/23/2012 1:43 PM

RE: 2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989 


2,000 Inmates Exonerated since 1989


...out of how many millions? Here we go with the #s game. I meen it sucks to be them...but why is it touted as rampant over zeliousness.Clearly it needs attention but i dont see alarm bells here.Well that is until the anti law zelots get involved that is...then you can bring the race card and every other jump off a cliff veiw.

Most part ..the system works.
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