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Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there

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Posted: 8/14/2014 11:28 AM

Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


You know you're f-ed when MSNBC commentators and Huffington Post bloggers are joining forces with Ted Cruz and Justin Amash to ask WTF you think you're doing. 

I predict the chief of police is gonna leave to "spend time with his family" in the next 72 hours.


"The business of progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."

--GK Chesterton
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Posted: 8/14/2014 12:29 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


Saying the sh*t has hit the fan in Ferguson seems like an understatement. The way the cops are cracking down on the media makes me more inclined to believe the witnesses who say Brown was shot while running away. It definitely sounds like the police have gone from "Protect and Serve" to local gestapo in that town.
One of these days, I'm gonna change my evil ways, one of these days. Until then, I'll just keep riding on.
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Posted: 8/14/2014 12:38 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


Sad situation all the way around. No dash cam or chest cam video of the actual event. Eyewitnesses (who are black) saying "the kids weren't doing anything." Riots and looting which does nothing but to spur stereotypes, Sharpton in the fold. Police militarizing (which is understandable when you are outnumbered probably 20 to 1). Police arresting journalists which is unacceptable. Just a complete and utter mess. Use your freaking Tazer and when you have video equipment, USE IT. I have seen first hand (unfortunately) where dash cam videos have ahem...accidentally gone missing. So I absolutely know that cops can and will cover up to save each others bacon. But I also know what a tough job it is and it's very difficult to always make the right split second decision when self preservation is the foremost concern. Don't know what went down that night. I guess I tend to doubt "the kids did nothing," as kids usually don't get shot for doing nothing, but without the video it's hard to say for certain.

Let me guess.  You aren't here for the Alcohol or Tobacco...
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Posted: 8/14/2014 1:40 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


What I'm having a problem with is why the officer had to shot the kid multiple times, as in more than a few. Not that he was or was not justified in shooting him in the first place, but even if it was righteous if the kid was unarmed why fire more than once unless the kid keeps coming after you and the gun?

Yeah, it's a tough job and I think most cops are trying to do the best they can. No doubt we have plenty of people wearing a badge and carrying a gun that are not suited to for the job, but it's also probably true that too many civilians are somewhat less than helpful when dealing with the police.
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Posted: 8/14/2014 3:31 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


I know very little about the original shooting, and I can't say whether it was justifiable or not. I know that a bunch of cops dressed up in paramilitary gear were training loaded rifles on 11-year-old girls line-dancing as part of a protest, arresting credentialed reporters who were recording events, and firing tear gas at TV news crews.

I also know that nobody wants to come out publicly and claim to be in command of the situation. When you see scenes from a small town in Missouri that look identical to war zones in Egypt and Ukraine, somebody needs to calm the eff down.


"The business of progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."

--GK Chesterton
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Posted: 8/14/2014 3:37 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


What I want to know, and NO ONE has explained, is why the cop felt a need to confront them in the first place? What did he see? The witness (who no one has talked to) claims the confrontation began when the cop drove by and told them to "get the f__k on the sidewalk!" if that's true, jaywalking is hardly worth a physical confrontation. 

If this officer had a valid reason to stop and confront these kids, why are they not saying it in front of every camera they can find? If the kids were in the wrong why was Mike Brown's friend never arrested? Unlike the cop he's not hiding, he's out there telling his story to anyone who will listen? 

Who looks more wrong, the teen that called the police and the media to offer his account or the PD that has refused to share what they know?

I wish ignorance was painful.

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Posted: 8/14/2014 4:36 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


This is one of the best breakdowns of this I've seen--military vets looking at the police response and crowd control tactics in Ferguson and shaking their heads:

https://storify.com/AthertonKD/veterans-on-ferguson


"The business of progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."

--GK Chesterton
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Posted: 8/14/2014 7:04 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



Flee1 wrote: What I want to know, and NO ONE has explained, is why the cop felt a need to confront them in the first place? What did he see? The witness (who no one has talked to) claims the confrontation began when the cop drove by and told them to "get the f__k on the sidewalk!" if that's true, jaywalking is hardly worth a physical confrontation. 

If this officer had a valid reason to stop and confront these kids, why are they not saying it in front of every camera they can find? If the kids were in the wrong why was Mike Brown's friend never arrested? Unlike the cop he's not hiding, he's out there telling his story to anyone who will listen? 

Who looks more wrong, the teen that called the police and the media to offer his account or the PD that has refused to share what they know?
The small detail that has been glossed over that is the most damning to me is that when the officer confronted them, he made a point to drive past them to get in front, then back up. No front facing dash camera footage that way....

he knew exactly what he was doing and this was not his first rodeo with that tactic. The whole PD there looks like it needs to get a huge enema. I understand now that the entire PD has been pulled and replaced by the Governor.

If things turn out like has been reported, the cop needs to be prosecuted for murder.



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Posted: 8/14/2014 7:27 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


Like it or not, there's not many police forces that look good trying to control a riot. Especially if you're not a major city like NY or LA. And hell, remember the king riots in LA? It's not exactly like each one is the same or you get any kind of practice. That said, things like busting the reporters is indeed idiotic. But as far as pointing rifles at kids, who the F brings kids to someplace when you know there's going to be a riot?

I think the two big details here are why he stopped them, and just if he was injured. Note that the friend says they never touched the cop, but the police say he was treated at the hospital for a swollen face. There's no doubt that cops have rousted guys in the past, but there's also no doubt that kids with bad attitudes have gone overboard too. Frankly, the kid's story lacks credibility. IF he would have said the cop stopped them for something petty, rousted his friend, who then got pissed and they fought, it would be believable. But this guy says a cop basically jumped out and executed his friend. That really doesn't pass the smell test.

You guys see this? www.facebook.com/johnathan.gentry.14 Go down to his video on the shooting, about 4 posts down.

 

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Posted: 8/14/2014 7:31 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



sid11 wrote: Like it or not, there's not many police forces that look good trying to control a riot. Especially if you're not a major city like NY or LA. And hell, remember the king riots in LA? It's not exactly like each one is the same or you get any kind of practice. That said, things like busting the reporters is indeed idiotic. But as far as pointing rifles at kids, who the F brings kids to someplace when you know there's going to be a riot?

I think the two big details here are why he stopped them, and just if he was injured. Note that the friend says they never touched the cop, but the police say he was treated at the hospital for a swollen face. There's no doubt that cops have rousted guys in the past, but there's also no doubt that kids with bad attitudes have gone overboard too. Frankly, the kid's story lacks credibility. IF he would have said the cop stopped them for something petty, rousted his friend, who then got pissed and they fought, it would be believable. But this guy says a cop basically jumped out and executed his friend. That really doesn't pass the smell test.

You guys see this? www.facebook.com/johnathan.gentry.14 Go down to his video on the shooting, about 4 posts down.
from an point of reference based on actual observations, when I have seen the friend give interviews, based on the interrogation training I have about people being evasive or making **** up or lying, his body language, eye movements and other physical factors are extremely consistent, confident and show no indication of falsehood or deception.....



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Posted: 8/14/2014 7:40 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


Oh, and regarding the military comments, I'm not sure why that matters here. Their training is totally different, and also, these are the same folks that gave us naked human twister at abu ghraib.

 

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Posted: 8/14/2014 7:41 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



sid11 wrote: Like it or not, there's not many police forces that look good trying to control a riot. Especially if you're not a major city like NY or LA. And hell, remember the king riots in LA? It's not exactly like each one is the same or you get any kind of practice. That said, things like busting the reporters is indeed idiotic. But as far as pointing rifles at kids, who the F brings kids to someplace when you know there's going to be a riot?

I think the two big details here are why he stopped them, and just if he was injured. Note that the friend says they never touched the cop, but the police say he was treated at the hospital for a swollen face. There's no doubt that cops have rousted guys in the past, but there's also no doubt that kids with bad attitudes have gone overboard too. Frankly, the kid's story lacks credibility. IF he would have said the cop stopped them for something petty, rousted his friend, who then got pissed and they fought, it would be believable. But this guy says a cop basically jumped out and executed his friend. That really doesn't pass the smell test.

You guys see this? www.facebook.com/johnathan.gentry.14 Go down to his video on the shooting, about 4 posts down.

The kids were doing a dance in broad daylight, at 3pm in the afternoon, as part of an entirely peaceful protest. With a heavily armed moron in a tank at the end of the street training a rifle on them. 

There wasn't even a riot last night, there was a peaceful protest that a paramilitary battalion descended on with flash grenades. The police chief (who's now been relieved by state troopers) didn't even call a curfew--he just sent a pack of heavily armed dipshits off to chase off a crowd with rifles and tear gas. 

Review the link I posted. Either of these tactics are exactly what real military AVOIDS in frickin Afghanistan. Because the first rule of crowd control for US soldiers in a war zone is to recognize that the very presence of military can inflame the situation, so don't do anything to START a riot like some kind of idiot. 

These are people with a bunch of expensive military equipment and very little training, who get their rocks off playing soldier in a suburban town of 21,000 American civilians. Somebody who knows what the eff they're doing needs to be in charge, and it looks like that's finally the case.


"The business of progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."

--GK Chesterton
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Posted: 8/14/2014 7:42 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



weaselpuppy wrote:
sid11 wrote: Like it or not, there's not many police forces that look good trying to control a riot. Especially if you're not a major city like NY or LA. And hell, remember the king riots in LA? It's not exactly like each one is the same or you get any kind of practice. That said, things like busting the reporters is indeed idiotic. But as far as pointing rifles at kids, who the F brings kids to someplace when you know there's going to be a riot?

I think the two big details here are why he stopped them, and just if he was injured. Note that the friend says they never touched the cop, but the police say he was treated at the hospital for a swollen face. There's no doubt that cops have rousted guys in the past, but there's also no doubt that kids with bad attitudes have gone overboard too. Frankly, the kid's story lacks credibility. IF he would have said the cop stopped them for something petty, rousted his friend, who then got pissed and they fought, it would be believable. But this guy says a cop basically jumped out and executed his friend. That really doesn't pass the smell test.

You guys see this? www.facebook.com/johnathan.gentry.14 Go down to his video on the shooting, about 4 posts down.
from an point of reference based on actual observations, when I have seen the friend give interviews, based on the interrogation training I have about people being evasive or making **** up or lying, his body language, eye movements and other physical factors are extremely consistent, confident and show no indication of falsehood or deception.....

Hey, I didn't say it was impossible.  But I think you'd have to agree at face value, the friends story is WAY the hell out there.  Like I said, this may tip on what the ER doctors say about his face, especially if they have pictures.

 

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Posted: 8/14/2014 7:47 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



REMRebound wrote:
sid11 wrote: Like it or not, there's not many police forces that look good trying to control a riot. Especially if you're not a major city like NY or LA. And hell, remember the king riots in LA? It's not exactly like each one is the same or you get any kind of practice. That said, things like busting the reporters is indeed idiotic. But as far as pointing rifles at kids, who the F brings kids to someplace when you know there's going to be a riot?

I think the two big details here are why he stopped them, and just if he was injured. Note that the friend says they never touched the cop, but the police say he was treated at the hospital for a swollen face. There's no doubt that cops have rousted guys in the past, but there's also no doubt that kids with bad attitudes have gone overboard too. Frankly, the kid's story lacks credibility. IF he would have said the cop stopped them for something petty, rousted his friend, who then got pissed and they fought, it would be believable. But this guy says a cop basically jumped out and executed his friend. That really doesn't pass the smell test.

You guys see this? www.facebook.com/johnathan.gentry.14 Go down to his video on the shooting, about 4 posts down.

The kids were doing a dance in broad daylight, at 3pm in the afternoon, as part of an entirely peaceful protest. With a heavily armed moron in a tank at the end of the street training a rifle on them. 

There wasn't even a riot last night, there was a peaceful protest that a paramilitary battalion descended on with flash grenades. The police chief (who's now been relieved by state troopers) didn't even call a curfew--he just sent a pack of heavily armed dipshits off to chase off a crowd with rifles and tear gas. 

Review the link I posted. Either of these tactics are exactly what real military AVOIDS in frickin Afghanistan. Because the first rule of crowd control for US soldiers in a war zone is to recognize that the very presence of military can inflame the situation, so don't do anything to START a riot like some kind of idiot. 

These are people with a bunch of expensive military equipment and very little training, who get their rocks off playing soldier in a suburban town of 21,000 American civilians. Somebody who knows what the eff they're doing needs to be in charge, and it looks like that's finally the case.

Almost every riot has started off peacefully.  I stand behind my statement 100% that only a fool would bring out kids to something like that with tensions running so high, especially as it only takes one bad move by one person on either side for it to go south.  Seriously, would you bring your kids to something like that after what had happened to that point?

I guess my point is that these are not combat troops in Afghanistan.  In general, the military is not trained, equipped or designed to do crowd control, and even if you get training, by definition you never have experience.  That's why in disasters, riots and such, it always seems like such a cluster.  There's only so much you can do to prep for it.

 

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Posted: 8/14/2014 7:52 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



REMRebound wrote: I know very little about the original shooting, and I can't say whether it was justifiable or not. I know that a bunch of cops dressed up in paramilitary gear were training loaded rifles on 11-year-old girls line-dancing as part of a protest, arresting credentialed reporters who were recording events, and firing tear gas at TV news crews.

I also know that nobody wants to come out publicly and claim to be in command of the situation. When you see scenes from a small town in Missouri that look identical to war zones in Egypt and Ukraine, somebody needs to calm the eff down.
I get that, but there were reports of Molotov cocktails being thrown.  Probably not by 11 year old girls, but there is no such thing as a Molotov cocktail at a peaceful protest either.  IMO no B&E's, vandalizing, looting and firebombs and no such response by LE.  JMHO. noidea  490 or so black on black murders per day and no riots.  Perhaps it's not only the LE that needs to calm the eff down, or at least refocus some of the outrage.

Let me guess.  You aren't here for the Alcohol or Tobacco...
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Posted: 8/14/2014 7:59 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


View image on Twitter

@abumuqawama its a pic so who knows but why have your weapons pointed at a guy like that? Mil tactic would be to stay low ready



As someone who studies policing in conflict, what's going on Ferguson isn't just immoral and probably unconstitutional, it's ineffective.

In the USAF, we did crowd control and riot training every year. Lesson 1: Your mere presence has the potential to escalate the situation.

A few people have pointed it out, but our ROE regarding who we could point weapons at in Afghanistan was more restrictive than cops in MO.

10:03 PM - 13 Aug 2014


View image on Twitter

Postures tell story of perceived threat. L: aggressive security during Al Jazeera camera dismantling. R: patrolling in Iraq.




I don't know how it was in IRQ and AFG, but in Bosnia we had less firepower while on patrol than the cops in #Ferguson


FWIW I led foot patrols in downtown Baquba, #Iraq in 2005-06 w/less firepower than #Ferguson PD (excl fire spt) @CaptainAwwsum @AthertonKD



View image on Twitter

The gentleman on the left has more personal body armor and weaponry than I did while invading Iraq.


@AdamWeinstein Also, we contained riots in Baghdad next to mosques with less violence than the police are employing.


@inteldump @CaptainAwwsum @AthertonKD those mraps are a hell of alot more advanced then we had in 06-07 OR 09-10


A lot of vets, me included, would go to Ferguson and gladly teach some classes on crowd control and patrolling You are ******* it up.

10:03 PM - 13 Aug 2014



I leveled my weapon twice overseas. Leveled. Not fired. I had legit threats and went through proper EOF. Stop ******* up, Ferguson PD.


It wouldn't matter if it was with the most altruistic of intentions. People see armed men in riot gear / death-stronaut gear and they react.


@RaiderFan42 @PatrickOsgood police legitimately needing a SWAT does not mean all police should be kitted up and armed like a Ranger platoon.

7:50 PM - 13 Aug 2014


@RaiderFan42 @PatrickOsgood well, the first thing they told us when we got to Afghanistan was 'wearing your gear makes you look hostile'


@chaydenphoto @Bro_Pair in Afghanistan c. '09 they at least kept the long guns on the base and gave M4s to guys leaving the wire.


@CommandSM and even in that BN, we could only get M4s to line squads. When I saw the Ferguson photos, I thought "They're better armed."


View image on Twitter

People really worried about getting shot do not sit exposed on top of armored cars. @PaulSzoldra @BmoreConetta




View image on Twitter

You wear body armor/helmets when you're worried about getting shot. Remind me, who's been shooting whom in #Furgeson?


4 years in the Army, including 2 spent staring down N. Korea and I never had as much sweet gear as the cops in Ferguson, Mo. pop. 21,000



"The business of progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."

--GK Chesterton
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Posted: 8/14/2014 8:04 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



sid11 wrote:
 In general, the military is not trained, equipped or designed to do crowd control, and even if you get training, by definition you never have experience.  That's why in disasters, riots and such, it always seems like such a cluster.  There's only so much you can do to prep for it.
In case you didn't browse through the stuff I just posted, here is the Army's 132-page manual on controlling a civil disturbance. In a friggin war zone. 

http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/atp3_39x33.pdf

The idea that there is no proper training or approach to do this effectively is ridiculous. You just have to have some small interest in doing it--as opposed to strapping on a rifle and rolling out into a suburban town of 21k in an armored vehicle ready to show a bunch of civilians how big your dick is.


"The business of progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."

--GK Chesterton
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Posted: 8/14/2014 8:22 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



weaselpuppy wrote:
Flee1 wrote: What I want to know, and NO ONE has explained, is why the cop felt a need to confront them in the first place? What did he see? The witness (who no one has talked to) claims the confrontation began when the cop drove by and told them to "get the f__k on the sidewalk!" if that's true, jaywalking is hardly worth a physical confrontation. 

If this officer had a valid reason to stop and confront these kids, why are they not saying it in front of every camera they can find? If the kids were in the wrong why was Mike Brown's friend never arrested? Unlike the cop he's not hiding, he's out there telling his story to anyone who will listen? 

Who looks more wrong, the teen that called the police and the media to offer his account or the PD that has refused to share what they know?
The small detail that has been glossed over that is the most damning to me is that when the officer confronted them, he made a point to drive past them to get in front, then back up. No front facing dash camera footage that way....

he knew exactly what he was doing and this was not his first rodeo with that tactic. The whole PD there looks like it needs to get a huge enema. I understand now that the entire PD has been pulled and replaced by the Governor.

If things turn out like has been reported, the cop needs to be prosecuted for murder.
DAMN Weas, I never thought of that....!

I wish ignorance was painful.

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Posted: 8/14/2014 8:27 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



REMRebound wrote:
sid11 wrote:
 In general, the military is not trained, equipped or designed to do crowd control, and even if you get training, by definition you never have experience.  That's why in disasters, riots and such, it always seems like such a cluster.  There's only so much you can do to prep for it.
In case you didn't browse through the stuff I just posted, here is the Army's 132-page manual on controlling a civil disturbance. In a friggin war zone. 

http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/atp3_39x33.pdf

The idea that there is no proper training or approach to do this effectively is ridiculous. You just have to have some small interest in doing it--as opposed to strapping on a rifle and rolling out into a suburban town of 21k in an armored vehicle ready to show a bunch of civilians how big your dick is.
OK, so where is the breakdown??  Have these guys been trained?  Where's their officers, and what are their orders?  These are cops, right??  Not the national guard?  What I don't get is why you are holding cops to a military standard?

And like I said, having a manual is one thing.  Actually controlling a riot situation is something else.  I'll point out again that they had a manual at abu graib, and apparently no one read that one either.  And you really can't train for a riot.  It's basically impossible.  I find the comments of a bunch of ex-mil guys on the net commenting on this about as compelling as I do a bunch of couch 'taters commenting on how they can run a team better than professional coaches.  How many of them actually  had to control a real riot?

Here's an example of why the comments don't impress me much.   "You wear body armor/helmets when you're worried about getting shot. Remind me, who's been shooting whom in"   Is this idiot really suggesting that cops rolling into a potential riot situation don't dress for it UNTIL someone starts shooting?   Sorry, not impressed.  Cops wear body armor every day.

 

Last edited 8/14/2014 8:30 PM by sid11

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Posted: 8/14/2014 8:35 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



3RDRGR wrote:
REMRebound wrote: I know very little about the original shooting, and I can't say whether it was justifiable or not. I know that a bunch of cops dressed up in paramilitary gear were training loaded rifles on 11-year-old girls line-dancing as part of a protest, arresting credentialed reporters who were recording events, and firing tear gas at TV news crews.

I also know that nobody wants to come out publicly and claim to be in command of the situation. When you see scenes from a small town in Missouri that look identical to war zones in Egypt and Ukraine, somebody needs to calm the eff down.
I get that, but there were reports of Molotov cocktails being thrown.  Probably not by 11 year old girls, but there is no such thing as a Molotov cocktail at a peaceful protest either.  IMO no B&E's, vandalizing, looting and firebombs and no such response by LE.  JMHO. noidea  490 or so black on black murders per day and no riots.  Perhaps it's not only the LE that needs to calm the eff down, or at least refocus some of the outrage.
Lester Holt, who does as good a job of not offering his opinion when reporting the news stated that the gathering was peaceful last night, the the crowd was dispersing. He said it seemed that they were not leaving fast enough for the PD and their efforts to move them along faster escalated when the tear gas started flying. 

Now did that happen because someone threw a rock or cocktail? Who knows, but I don't think it rose to the level of tear gassing the crowd and reporters. The PD has been trying to keep everyone from seeing how they handled this from moment one. That's why the got the FAA to issue a no fly order. For a few hours the other day nothing could fly over the city below 3000 feet.....it didn't last long.

I wish ignorance was painful.

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Posted: 8/14/2014 8:53 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 




If the cops are going to play dress-up as military in a war zone, complete with military equipment and arms, they damn well better be trained, or at least led by somebody who knows what they're doing. This is the problem.


---------------------------------------------
--- sid11 wrote:


REMRebound wrote:
sid11 wrote:
 In general, the military is not trained, equipped or designed to do crowd control, and even if you get training, by definition you never have experience.  That's why in disasters, riots and such, it always seems like such a cluster.  There's only so much you can do to prep for it.
In case you didn't browse through the stuff I just posted, here is the Army's 132-page manual on controlling a civil disturbance. In a friggin war zone. 

armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_.../atp3_39x33.pdf

The idea that there is no proper training or approach to do this effectively is ridiculous. You just have to have some small interest in doing it--as opposed to strapping on a rifle and rolling out into a suburban town of 21k in an armored vehicle ready to show a bunch of civilians how big your dick is.
OK, so where is the breakdown??  Have these guys been trained?  Where's their officers, and what are their orders?  These are cops, right??  Not the national guard?  What I don't get is why you are holding cops to a military standard?

And like I said, having a manual is one thing.  Actually controlling a riot situation is something else.  I'll point out again that they had a manual at abu graib, and apparently no one read that one either.  And you really can't train for a riot.  It's basically impossible.  I find the comments of a bunch of ex-mil guys on the net commenting on this about as compelling as I do a bunch of couch 'taters commenting on how they can run a team better than professional coaches.  How many of them actually  had to control a real riot?

Here's an example of why the comments don't impress me much.   "You wear body armor/helmets when you're worried about getting shot. Remind me, who's been shooting whom in"   Is this idiot really suggesting that cops rolling into a potential riot situation don't dress for it UNTIL someone starts shooting?   Sorry, not impressed.  Cops wear body armor every day.

---------------------------------------------


"The business of progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."

--GK Chesterton
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Posted: 8/14/2014 9:12 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



sid11 wrote:
weaselpuppy wrote:
sid11 wrote: Like it or not, there's not many police forces that look good trying to control a riot. Especially if you're not a major city like NY or LA. And hell, remember the king riots in LA? It's not exactly like each one is the same or you get any kind of practice. That said, things like busting the reporters is indeed idiotic. But as far as pointing rifles at kids, who the F brings kids to someplace when you know there's going to be a riot?

I think the two big details here are why he stopped them, and just if he was injured. Note that the friend says they never touched the cop, but the police say he was treated at the hospital for a swollen face. There's no doubt that cops have rousted guys in the past, but there's also no doubt that kids with bad attitudes have gone overboard too. Frankly, the kid's story lacks credibility. IF he would have said the cop stopped them for something petty, rousted his friend, who then got pissed and they fought, it would be believable. But this guy says a cop basically jumped out and executed his friend. That really doesn't pass the smell test.

You guys see this? www.facebook.com/johnathan.gentry.14 Go down to his video on the shooting, about 4 posts down.
from an point of reference based on actual observations, when I have seen the friend give interviews, based on the interrogation training I have about people being evasive or making **** up or lying, his body language, eye movements and other physical factors are extremely consistent, confident and show no indication of falsehood or deception.....

Hey, I didn't say it was impossible.  But I think you'd have to agree at face value, the friends story is WAY the hell out there.  Like I said, this may tip on what the ER doctors say about his face, especially if they have pictures.
nope, I don't agree. It's not impossible, but everything so far from the actions of trooper (especially my above point about backing in), the witnesses, the actions of the PD, the lack of info/video released makes me think the  trooper was incredibly out of line.

I listen to many stories from my best buddy (Axman who used to post here) about his times as a Dallas PD officer and more than once being in fights with perps that went for his gun (once when it was knocked out of his hand and if the other guy gets it his wife is a widow), massive brawls, people that resisted arrest...and none of them involved shooting the perp....many involved use of a heavy ass mag-lite or baton and ended up in a ****-ton of stitches for the perp...but none involved shooting...and this was the #1 PD for firing your weapon in the line of duty in the USA at that time....

You can't make up a scenario where a perp, who was by both sides accounts partially inside the cruiser, ends up shot multiple  times in the front of torso and at least once in the face many yards from the car that involves self defense. The officer couldn't have shot him in the front without facing him, yes? Even if it were in the back of the head (not counting the other 2-4 hits), a cop shooting an unarmed fleeing suspect in the middle of the street is gonna get fired.

Everything on this one smells. big time.



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Posted: 8/15/2014 7:06 AM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



weaselpuppy wrote:
sid11 wrote:
weaselpuppy wrote:
sid11 wrote: Like it or not, there's not many police forces that look good trying to control a riot. Especially if you're not a major city like NY or LA. And hell, remember the king riots in LA? It's not exactly like each one is the same or you get any kind of practice. That said, things like busting the reporters is indeed idiotic. But as far as pointing rifles at kids, who the F brings kids to someplace when you know there's going to be a riot?

I think the two big details here are why he stopped them, and just if he was injured. Note that the friend says they never touched the cop, but the police say he was treated at the hospital for a swollen face. There's no doubt that cops have rousted guys in the past, but there's also no doubt that kids with bad attitudes have gone overboard too. Frankly, the kid's story lacks credibility. IF he would have said the cop stopped them for something petty, rousted his friend, who then got pissed and they fought, it would be believable. But this guy says a cop basically jumped out and executed his friend. That really doesn't pass the smell test.

You guys see this? www.facebook.com/johnathan.gentry.14 Go down to his video on the shooting, about 4 posts down.
from an point of reference based on actual observations, when I have seen the friend give interviews, based on the interrogation training I have about people being evasive or making **** up or lying, his body language, eye movements and other physical factors are extremely consistent, confident and show no indication of falsehood or deception.....

Hey, I didn't say it was impossible.  But I think you'd have to agree at face value, the friends story is WAY the hell out there.  Like I said, this may tip on what the ER doctors say about his face, especially if they have pictures.
nope, I don't agree. It's not impossible, but everything so far from the actions of trooper (especially my above point about backing in), the witnesses, the actions of the PD, the lack of info/video released makes me think the  trooper was incredibly out of line.

I listen to many stories from my best buddy (Axman who used to post here) about his times as a Dallas PD officer and more than once being in fights with perps that went for his gun (once when it was knocked out of his hand and if the other guy gets it his wife is a widow), massive brawls, people that resisted arrest...and none of them involved shooting the perp....many involved use of a heavy ass mag-lite or baton and ended up in a ****-ton of stitches for the perp...but none involved shooting...and this was the #1 PD for firing your weapon in the line of duty in the USA at that time....

You can't make up a scenario where a perp, who was by both sides accounts partially inside the cruiser, ends up shot multiple  times in the front of torso and at least once in the face many yards from the car that involves self defense. The officer couldn't have shot him in the front without facing him, yes? Even if it were in the back of the head (not counting the other 2-4 hits), a cop shooting an unarmed fleeing suspect in the middle of the street is gonna get fired.

Everything on this one smells. big time.

Agree to most of that weas, but it's also not what I said.  My main point was that the friends story of they were just walking along and the cop opens up on them simply has no credibility.  Ochams razor suggests that the cop probably didn't act properly, but that the kids probably didn't act right either.  That goes back to the report of injuries to the cop, which if true, make the friend a liar and discredit his whole story.

 

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Posted: 8/15/2014 7:12 AM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



REMRebound wrote:

If the cops are going to play dress-up as military in a war zone, complete with military equipment and arms, they damn well better be trained, or at least led by somebody who knows what they're doing. This is the problem.



Totally moot.   "military" has nothing to do with it.  Keep them in police uniform with sidearms, cars, batons and shotguns and nothing changes.  And while I agree that any officer needs training, I think the fact of the matter that no one has addressed is that no department outside of the biggest that can have a dedicated core unit is ever going to be trained properly.  This isn't like self-defense training.  You can't REALLY prepare for things like a riot of a major natural disaster, which is why in most of them, the response always seems to be a cluster-f.

Part of the problem with "training" is that there is not way to train a guy to stand in there in a situation where he's outnumbered many time to one by an angry mob, throwing objects at them and looting areas and not have someone lose it.

 

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Posted: 8/15/2014 9:13 AM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


The Day Ferguson Cops Were Caught in a Bloody Lie

Sounds like the entire PD needs fixing, from the top down.

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

Formerly AzLionsFan, formerly TheRealWags
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Posted: 8/15/2014 9:29 AM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


Rand Paul seems to get it:
Rand Paul: We Must Demilitarize the Police Sen. Rand Paul @SenRandPaul Aug. 14, 2014

Anyone who thinks race does not skew the application of criminal justice in this country is just not paying close enough attention, Sen. Rand Paul writes for TIME, amid violence in Ferguson, Mo. over the police shooting death of Michael Brown

The shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown is an awful tragedy that continues to send shockwaves through the community of Ferguson, Missouri and across the nation.

If I had been told to get out of the street as a teenager, there would have been a distinct possibility that I might have smarted off. But, I wouldn’t have expected to be shot.

The outrage in Ferguson is understandable—though there is never an excuse for rioting or looting. There is a legitimate role for the police to keep the peace, but there should be a difference between a police response and a military response.

The images and scenes we continue to see in Ferguson resemble war more than traditional police action.

Glenn Reynolds, in Popular Mechanics, recognized the increasing militarization of the police five years ago. In 2009 he wrote:
Soldiers and police are supposed to be different. … Police look inward. They’re supposed to protect their fellow citizens from criminals, and to maintain order with a minimum of force.

It’s the difference between Audie Murphy and Andy Griffith. But nowadays, police are looking, and acting, more like soldiers than cops, with bad consequences. And those who suffer the consequences are usually innocent civilians.
The Cato Institute’s Walter Olson observed this week how the rising militarization of law enforcement is currently playing out in Ferguson:
Why armored vehicles in a Midwestern inner suburb? Why would cops wear camouflage gear against a terrain patterned by convenience stores and beauty parlors? Why are the authorities in Ferguson, Mo. so given to quasi-martial crowd control methods (such as bans on walking on the street) and, per the reporting of Riverfront Times, the firing of tear gas at people in their own yards? (“‘This my property!’ he shouted, prompting police to fire a tear gas canister directly at his face.”) Why would someone identifying himself as an 82nd Airborne Army veteran, observing the Ferguson police scene, comment that “We rolled lighter than that in an actual warzone”?
Olson added, “the dominant visual aspect of the story, however, has been the sight of overpowering police forces confronting unarmed protesters who are seen waving signs or just their hands.”

How did this happen?

Most police officers are good cops and good people. It is an unquestionably difficult job, especially in the current circumstances.

There is a systemic problem with today’s law enforcement.

Not surprisingly, big government has been at the heart of the problem. Washington has incentivized the militarization of local police precincts by using federal dollars to help municipal governments build what are essentially small armies—where police departments compete to acquire military gear that goes far beyond what most of Americans think of as law enforcement.

This is usually done in the name of fighting the war on drugs or terrorism. The Heritage Foundation’s Evan Bernick wrote in 2013 that, “the Department of Homeland Security has handed out anti-terrorism grants to cities and towns across the country, enabling them to buy armored vehicles, guns, armor, aircraft, and other equipment.”

Bernick continued, “federal agencies of all stripes, as well as local police departments in towns with populations less than 14,000, come equipped with SWAT teams and heavy artillery.”

Bernick noted the cartoonish imbalance between the equipment some police departments possess and the constituents they serve, “today, Bossier Parish, Louisiana, has a .50 caliber gun mounted on an armored vehicle. The Pentagon gives away millions of pieces of military equipment to police departments across the country—tanks included.”

When you couple this militarization of law enforcement with an erosion of civil liberties and due process that allows the police to become judge and jury—national security letters, no-knock searches, broad general warrants, pre-conviction forfeiture—we begin to have a very serious problem on our hands. Given these developments, it is almost impossible for many Americans not to feel like their government is targeting them.

Given the racial disparities in our criminal justice system, it is impossible for African-Americans not to feel like their government is particularly targeting them.

This is part of the anguish we are seeing in the tragic events outside of St. Louis, Missouri. It is what the citizens of Ferguson feel when there is an unfortunate and heartbreaking shooting like the incident with Michael Brown.

Anyone who thinks that race does not still, even if inadvertently, skew the application of criminal justice in this country is just not paying close enough attention. Our prisons are full of black and brown men and women who are serving inappropriately long and harsh sentences for non-violent mistakes in their youth.

The militarization of our law enforcement is due to an unprecedented expansion of government power in this realm. It is one thing for federal officials to work in conjunction with local authorities to reduce or solve crime. It is quite another for them to subsidize it.

Americans must never sacrifice their liberty for an illusive and dangerous, or false, security. This has been a cause I have championed for years, and one that is at a near-crisis point in our country.

Let us continue to pray for Michael Brown’s family, the people of Ferguson, police, and citizens alike.

Paul is the junior U.S. Senator for Kentucky.

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

Formerly AzLionsFan, formerly TheRealWags
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Posted: 8/15/2014 9:43 AM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


Sad thing is, Paul doesn't get it. What is painfully obvious is that he learned how to be a bomb-throwing douchebag from his douche of a father.

First off, the most painful thing, especially coming from a US senator of all places is that you don't draw conclusions on what did or did not happen until the actual facts are out there. How f*cking simple is that to understand? Not a single one of us has any REAL knowledge of what happened from the time the cop first rolled up until the kid hit the ground, so ignorant comments from people in power only looking to draw attention to themselves is part of the reason you have the public so worked up. It's lazy, it's stupid, and it's not what a true leader does.

As far as the military thing goes, it again only shows ignorance. Was the cop in a tank, in cammo or carrying a rifle when the kid was shot? No. Asshats like Paul are looking at appearance and trying to make something out of it. How DARE they wear camo!!!! What a jackass. So he somehow believes if they response would have been exactly the same, but all of the paramilitary was gone, he'd feel better about it? What a fool.

 

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Posted: 8/15/2014 11:32 AM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 


When is it ever--EVER--appropriate to have armored police training sniper rifles on unarmed civilians? That one photo is literally all you need to know to understand that these goobers don't know what the eff they're doing, and that this department needs a top-to-bottom housecleaning.


"The business of progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."

--GK Chesterton
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Posted: 8/15/2014 12:46 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



REMRebound wrote: When is it ever--EVER--appropriate to have armored police training sniper rifles on unarmed civilians? That one photo is literally all you need to know to understand that these goobers don't know what the eff they're doing, and that this department needs a top-to-bottom housecleaning.

Would you feel better if they were unarmored and only had pistols or shotgun trained on them?

See, that's what I find so incredibly dishonest about the whole thing.  I'm perfectly willing to accept that the cops could be screwed up.  But the arguments being made to support it are total BS.  Them wearing cammo or a vest, or being in a HUMVEE doesn't mean anything.  I'm tired of hearing all of this crap that's all about symbolism and not about the substance of the matter.

 

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Posted: 8/15/2014 1:04 PM

Re: Ferguson--some damn heads are gonna roll there 



sid11 wrote:
REMRebound wrote: When is it ever--EVER--appropriate to have armored police training sniper rifles on unarmed civilians? That one photo is literally all you need to know to understand that these goobers don't know what the eff they're doing, and that this department needs a top-to-bottom housecleaning.

Would you feel better if they were unarmored and only had pistols or shotgun trained on them?
Why is it appropriate to have any weapon trained on them? Especially considering you're only supposed to aim at what you intend to shoot, or does that not apply to 'peace officers'?

Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right....

Formerly AzLionsFan, formerly TheRealWags
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