The Run-n-shoot was a very affective offens that took us to the playoffs and other teams to Superbowls.  Why did it die and what happened to it?

scottallen222 wrote:

The Run-n-shoot was a very affective offens that took us to the playoffs and other teams to Superbowls.  Why did it die and what happened to it?

IMO the run-n-shoot didnt die totally. It died as far as a team running 100% of the time like the Oilers and Lions did in the early 90's, but the run-n-shoot princibles are present throughout football with the 4 and 5 WR sets and the read routes that the WR and QB both have to see.

Two things really:

1-You have to be able to run effectively in the NFL to win.  The infamous collapse of the Oilers vs. the Bills in the playoffs was the prime example of that.

2-Running a pure passing offense will get your QB killed.

Five reasons:

1) Opposing teams figured it out (as they usually do).

2) QBs got killed as d-coordinators learned how vulnerable it was to the blitz.

3) No ball control component meant no ability whatsoever to chew time off the clock when owning a lead.

4) No ball control meant no time of possession, which fatigued the crap out of the defense (Wayne Fontes used to complain about "scoring too fast").

5) Forget about goal line or short-yardage offense with no TEs, FBs or lead blockers.

JoshKitna wrote:

 

Five reasons:

 

 

1) Opposing teams figured it out (as they usually do).

 

2) QBs got killed as d-coordinators learned how vulnerable it was to the blitz.

 

3) No ball control component meant no ability whatsoever to chew time off the clock when owning a lead.

 

4) No ball control meant no time of possession, which fatigued the crap out of the defense (Wayne Fontes used to complain about "scoring too fast").

 

5) Forget about goal line or short-yardage offense with no TEs, FBs or lead blockers.

1. They didn't figured it out.  They couldn't stop the offense because it is designed to defeat what the defense put out on the field.  No matter what kind of coverage do you run, the QB and WRs make the proper read and go to the weak spot of the coverage.

2. You're probably right but the run and shoot have evolved to the point where RB are a valuable reciever.  It is a counter to the blitz.

3. Run and shoot can be a ball control offense with quick passes.

4. Scoring is the main goal so Wayne Fontes' reasoning is kind of idiotic.  After all the goal of the offense is to put points on the board.

5. That may be a valid concern.

Point #2 and #5 may be the reason why.  The biggest reason why it died in the NFL is it takes a lot of pracitce and reps for the QB and WRs to really understand the offense.  It is a very complex offense that requires everybody to be on the same page or it will look very bad.  Coaches just don't have the time or patience to run the run and shoot.  If run and shoot is implented in the NFL, it would be very effective offense.  NE and Saints ran a variation of run and shoot.  The option routes first originated from run and shoot and is now a staple for most NFL offense.

I love run and shoot because when run properly, no defense can't stop the offense.

There were recently a couple articles, i think it was when they talked about the 3-4 being in vogue now, where Gunther Cunningham said that it was just a phase in the NFL just like the Run 'N Shoot was.  Gunther talked about how a lot of teams went to that offense until defensive coordinators figured out how to break down the offensive line consistenly and then it was just a race to take the QB apart.  Thats what killed the RnS offense.

Its a cause and effect league.  R n S offense, countered by 3-4 defense.  West Coast offense, countered by Tampa 2 defense.  Now Tampa 2 defenses are archaic, as most teams have shifted offenses again. 

Found the article

http://www.detnews.com/article...vers-in-3-4-fad

Gunther on the 3-4

"I think it's an evolutionary, copycat thing -- it's inevitable," said Lions defensive coordinator Gunther Cunningham, in his 28th season as an NFL coach. "I remember when the run-and-shoot (offense) came in and everybody was trying to run it -- and then they lost all their quarterbacks (to injuries). The 3-4 is the same thing: There are some holes in it if you know how to attack it. ... Some teams are doing it and getting hammered."

Some are, some aren't. In fact, the two other teams to make the offseason switch to a 3-4 -- Denver and Kansas City -- are at opposite ends of the statistical rankings. The Broncos rank first in scoring defense, while the Chiefs rank last in total defense.

A tight end is needed in the NFL.

I was wondering why we don't see the Lions line-up with 4 wide on 1st down and run a little bit of a run-n-shoot to open-up the defense.  I wouldn't want them to do it as the main staple of their offense but why not open things up a bit?

Do we ever run 4 wide anymore?....I can't recall seeing it if we did.  Let's mix things up a bit and keep the defense guessing.  Defenses wouldn't know what the heck to do if we came-out with 4 WR's on 1st down.

I think the "fad" now is like Indy is doing and going 4 wide with a TE in the slot.

QB getting killed was the biggest issue.

scottallen222 wrote:

I was wondering why we don't see the Lions line-up with 4 wide on 1st down and run a little bit of a run-n-shoot to open-up the defense.  I wouldn't want them to do it as the main staple of their offense but why not open things up a bit?

 

Do we ever run 4 wide anymore?....I can't recall seeing it if we did.  Let's mix things up a bit and keep the defense guessing.  Defenses wouldn't know what the heck to do if we came-out with 4 WR's on 1st down.

 

I think the "fad" now is like Indy is doing and going 4 wide with a TE in the slot.

We don't have 4 receivers to put on the field that are worth a lick.

lionking299 wrote:

 

scottallen222 wrote:

The Run-n-shoot was a very affective offens that took us to the playoffs and other teams to Superbowls.  Why did it die and what happened to it?

IMO the run-n-shoot didnt die totally. It died as far as a team running 100% of the time like the Oilers and Lions did in the early 90's, but the run-n-shoot princibles are present throughout football with the 4 and 5 WR sets and the read routes that the WR and QB both have to see.

 

 

IMO this is true.

In the NFL today you have to be able to run a huge variety of offensive sets and the true "run and shoot" was fairly limited in what it could do.

There isn't really THAT many offensive schemes in the NFL anymore.  At least it doesn't seem like it.  It seems like every NFL team runs a variety of everything.

lionsbloodNW wrote:

 

scottallen222 wrote:

I was wondering why we don't see the Lions line-up with 4 wide on 1st down and run a little bit of a run-n-shoot to open-up the defense.  I wouldn't want them to do it as the main staple of their offense but why not open things up a bit?

 

Do we ever run 4 wide anymore?....I can't recall seeing it if we did.  Let's mix things up a bit and keep the defense guessing.  Defenses wouldn't know what the heck to do if we came-out with 4 WR's on 1st down.

 

I think the "fad" now is like Indy is doing and going 4 wide with a TE in the slot.

We don't have 4 receivers to put on the field that are worth a lick.

You must have secret powers to read minds because I was thinking the same thing!!!!

The Run-n-shoot didn't die, it simply went off to college, and changed it's name to the spread/ read option.

It seems to me as though most every college team is playing some variation of the Run-n-shoot, and calling it a variety of names. Mouse Davis sure would be proud.

They can get away with it in college because they aren't paying their QB's millions of dollars, and if they get hurt, oh well.

It is also very hard on your defense for a couple of reasons. First, if you do score, it usually doesn't take long which puts the D back on the field. Second, if you don't score, it usually doesn't take long which puts the D back on the field.

It is also very hard to protect a lead with the Run-n-shoot, as it isn't really a ball control/time of possession type offense.

It is very exciting for fans, but has it's obvious drawbacks.

lioninbearland wrote:

The Run-n-shoot didn't die, it simply went off to college, and changed it's name to the spread/ read option.

It seems to me as though most every college team is playing some variation of the Run-n-shoot, and calling it a variety of names. Mouse Davis sure would be proud.

They can get away with it in college because they aren't paying their QB's millions of dollars, and if they get hurt, oh well.

It is also very hard on your defense for a couple of reasons. First, if you do score, it usually doesn't take long which puts the D back on the field. Second, if you don't score, it usually doesn't take long which puts the D back on the field.

It is also very hard to protect a lead with the Run-n-shoot, as it isn't really a ball control/time of possession type offense.

It is very exciting for fans, but has it's obvious drawbacks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know that the spread requires the reads that the run-n-shoot did by it's receivers.

I thought the run-n-shoot kind of died because a lot of teams were using it and while it many teams to the playoffs that's usually when they lost to the more traditional offensive teams and it was believed that it couldn't win Superbowls....but Buffalo sure did get there a lot with it and maybe if Norwood could've made a FG it might have lived a little longer.

scottallen222 wrote:

 

lioninbearland wrote:

The Run-n-shoot didn't die, it simply went off to college, and changed it's name to the spread/ read option.

It seems to me as though most every college team is playing some variation of the Run-n-shoot, and calling it a variety of names. Mouse Davis sure would be proud.

They can get away with it in college because they aren't paying their QB's millions of dollars, and if they get hurt, oh well.

It is also very hard on your defense for a couple of reasons. First, if you do score, it usually doesn't take long which puts the D back on the field. Second, if you don't score, it usually doesn't take long which puts the D back on the field.

It is also very hard to protect a lead with the Run-n-shoot, as it isn't really a ball control/time of possession type offense.

It is very exciting for fans, but has it's obvious drawbacks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know that the spread requires the reads that the run-n-shoot did by it's receivers.

 

I thought the run-n-shoot kind of died because a lot of teams were using it and while it many teams to the playoffs that's usually when they lost to the more traditional offensive teams and it was believed that it couldn't win Superbowls....but Buffalo sure did get there a lot with it and maybe if Norwood could've made a FG it might have lived a little longer.

The spread does not necessarily requires the QBs and WRs to make reads.

As for Lioninbearland, he's wrong to assert that the run and shoot is spread/read offense.  There are a lot of spread offense in college but they don't require WRs to make reads.

Run and shoot can lead teams into the Super Bowl as long as the coach believes in his philosophy.  It's not neccessarily about the scheme, it's more about the coaches' belief and execution level from the players.  Of course, it helps that you have talents.

I think what happened in the LIONS case is that the D was on the field too much cuz the O was scoring too quick.

The zone blitz killed the run-n-shoot..  With the zone blitz your able to still blitz the QB and cover the WR's once that defense hit the NFL the run-n-shoot was done..  Before the zone blitz teams would usually give up blitzing the run-n-shoot with man coverage after about the first quarter because TD's would be falling from the sky..

But alot of you are right the the run-n-shoot isn't totally dead there are a couple teams out there that use pieces from that offense..