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Stafford

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Posted: 8/1/2014 12:17 AM

Stafford 


I admit fully and formost I am a Bears fan.  I am not trying to troll or antagonize.  My question is pretty simple.  Where would you guys see Matthew Stafford without having the best reciever in the NFL to throw to?  Forget standings or records the past years.  I am just curious if you all think he is an elite QB without CJ.

 

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Posted: 8/1/2014 12:30 AM

Re: Stafford 


NO. Not yet anyway. He's not even an elite QB with CJ. Right now, he's a middle of the road QB, ranked about 16th or so by many. He's gotta up his game and be more accurate and make fewer bad decisions IMHO. Many people think he's got the potential to be really good, but at some point potential has to be realized, and Stafford is about at that point.
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Posted: 8/1/2014 12:35 AM

Re: Stafford 



ghostd00d wrote: I admit fully and formost I am a Bears fan.  I am not trying to troll or antagonize.  My question is pretty simple.  Where would you guys see Matthew Stafford without having the best reciever in the NFL to throw to?  Forget standings or records the past years.  I am just curious if you all think he is an elite QB without CJ.
Elite? Yikes, since when has Stafford ever been elite?

Franchise QB, certainly(glad to finally have one, been about 50 years since the Lions have). Elite, not even close...
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Posted: 8/1/2014 12:46 AM

Re: Stafford 


Most teams have a #1WR. If we didn't have CJ we'd still have a #1WR on the team. Yes CJ is IMHO the best WR in history, but Stafford is a legit NFL starter that would start for the vast majority of teams in the NFL. We've led the NFL in drops two years straight and didn't have a running game until last season. He's had one legit #2WR and that was Titus Young. Before he went crazy, which was 2011 Stafford had one of the best seasons an NFL QB has ever had in the history of the NFL. I'm not ready to give him the "elite" label, but there are only a handful of QB's in the league I'd trade him for. Certainly not 15.

Let me guess.  You aren't here for the Alcohol or Tobacco...
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Posted: 8/1/2014 12:56 AM

Re: Stafford 


To the OP. I think much of the same thing could be asked about Cutler. Neither are elite at this very juncture, and both have to elevate their game to the next level.

I mean who is it elite really when you think about it? There's only 4 guys (Rodgers, Brady, P.Manning & Brees)... and then there's just everybody else.

I tend to lump Stafford with Cutler in the sense that both have been under-achievers. I'll say this though. I was a huge Trestman fan and really wanted the Lions to can Schwartz a year earlier to pursue Trestman, before you guys snagged him up. And if there's anyone that can help Cutler lock it in?.. it's Trestman.




*Suh,Megatron,Best,Broyles*

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Posted: 8/1/2014 1:07 AM

Re: Stafford 



LionsSlashWings wrote: To the OP. I think much of the same thing could be asked about Cutler. Neither are elite at this very juncture, and both have to elevate their game to the next level.

I mean who is it elite really when you think about it? There's only 4 guys (Rodgers, Brady, P.Manning & Brees)... and then there's just everybody else.

I tend to lump Stafford with Cutler in the sense that both have been under-achievers. I'll say this though. I was a huge Trestman fan and really wanted the Lions to can Schwartz a year earlier to pursue Trestman, before you guys snagged him up. And if there's anyone that can help Cutler lock it in?.. it's Trestman.
Ahhhh....but am not asking about Cutler.....it just muddies the waters.......I am just curious where you see your QB at this time in his career. And your opinion is very close to my own.

 

Last edited 8/1/2014 1:08 AM by ghostd00d

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Posted: 8/1/2014 1:07 AM

Re: Stafford 


I am going to echo a theme here, to make sure its clear...Lions fans do not think Stafford is "elite."  Within any group, you may find a few nutjob outliers, the same who would try to argue that Cutler is elite and every bit the QB Brady, Rodgers, Manning and Brees are.  Overall, Lions fans feel Stafford is in a group of QBs that includes Cutler, Tony Romo, etc.  The only difference is Stafford is significantly younger, so we are allowed to hold out more hope.  He is younger than Colin Kaepernick, and only a few months older than Russell Wilson...for instance.  For discussion purposes, lets take "elite" off of the table, because it is going to frame an argument that doesn't exist.  We don't buy into the idea that he is elite simply because he threw the 9th most TDs in a single season in NFL history, or is in rare company with his career high in yardage in a single season or yardage over a 2-3 year span.

Where would Stafford be without CJ?  Well, without CJ last year @ Green Bay he was 62.5% for 262 yards 1 TD and 0 INT.  Without CJ @ Minny he was 66% for 217 yards 1 TD and 0 INT.  World beater?  Nope.  Acceptable?  I think so.

The thing to remember about Stafford "without CJ" is he hasn't had a lot of weapons around him other than CJ.  He's had an older Nate Burleson who spent half of his time missing the game due to injuries.  The rest of his receiving core has been a Boise State WR that had mental problems (Titus Young) an Oklahoma kid that can't stay on the field more than a few games at a time (Ryan Broyles) and then a bunch of "street trash."  Sure, Tom Brady gets a lot of credit because he had a bunch of young receivers that he didn't have a lot of time to work with.  Stafford had it worse, he was throwing to guys that weren't even part of the team to begin the season.  We picked up a kid off the street a few seasons ago that was supposed to be our 4th or 5th WR (Kris Durham), and he spent two games as our #1 WR and most of the other games as our #2 or #3 receiver.  Another receiver (Jeremy Ross) was picked up during the season as street trash released by the Packers.  Another receiver (Kevin Ogltree) was street trash we picked up during the season after he was released by the Bucs.  Ross and Ogletree have talent, but its tough when you have zero training camp time with the guys and they are supposed to be "main targets."  And as any Lion fan knows, Stafford doesn't get to practice with CJ during the week because CJ is always being rested.

The main thing I wanted for Stafford.to gain was receivers he starts training camp with being on the roster in the regular season.  Every team deals with receivers moving up "above their pay grade," but its frustrating to see a guy like Durham jump as many slots as he did with street free agents that Stafford hasn't worked with backing him up.

My 2 cents.
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Posted: 8/1/2014 1:12 AM

Re: Stafford 



wesleysh21 wrote: I am going to echo a theme here, to make sure its clear...Lions fans do not think Stafford is "elite."  Within any group, you may find a few nutjob outliers, the same who would try to argue that Cutler is elite and every bit the QB Brady, Rodgers, Manning and Brees are.  Overall, Lions fans feel Stafford is in a group of QBs that includes Cutler, Tony Romo, etc.  The only difference is Stafford is significantly younger, so we are allowed to hold out more hope.  He is younger than Colin Kaepernick, and only a few months older than Russell Wilson...for instance.  For discussion purposes, lets take "elite" off of the table, because it is going to frame an argument that doesn't exist.  We don't buy into the idea that he is elite simply because he threw the 9th most TDs in a single season in NFL history, or is in rare company with his career high in yardage in a single season or yardage over a 2-3 year span.

Where would Stafford be without CJ?  Well, without CJ last year @ Green Bay he was 62.5% for 262 yards 1 TD and 0 INT.  Without CJ @ Minny he was 66% for 217 yards 1 TD and 0 INT.  World beater?  Nope.  Acceptable?  I think so.

The thing to remember about Stafford "without CJ" is he hasn't had a lot of weapons around him other than CJ.  He's had an older Nate Burleson who spent half of his time missing the game due to injuries.  The rest of his receiving core has been a Boise State WR that had mental problems (Titus Young) an Oklahoma kid that can't stay on the field more than a few games at a time (Ryan Broyles) and then a bunch of "street trash."  Sure, Tom Brady gets a lot of credit because he had a bunch of young receivers that he didn't have a lot of time to work with.  Stafford had it worse, he was throwing to guys that weren't even part of the team to begin the season.  We picked up a kid off the street a few seasons ago that was supposed to be our 4th or 5th WR (Kris Durham), and he spent two games as our #1 WR and most of the other games as our #2 or #3 receiver.  Another receiver (Jeremy Ross) was picked up during the season as street trash released by the Packers.  Another receiver (Kevin Ogltree) was street trash we picked up during the season after he was released by the Bucs.  Ross and Ogletree have talent, but its tough when you have zero training camp time with the guys and they are supposed to be "main targets."  And as any Lion fan knows, Stafford doesn't get to practice with CJ during the week because CJ is always being rested.

The main thing I wanted for Stafford.to gain was receivers he starts training camp with being on the roster in the regular season.  Every team deals with receivers moving up "above their pay grade," but its frustrating to see a guy like Durham jump as many slots as he did with street free agents that Stafford hasn't worked with backing him up.

My 2 cents.
Very interesting perspective........so has your new HC changed things or is the Stafford to CJ just the same ole thing?

 

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Posted: 8/1/2014 1:17 AM

Re: Stafford 



ghostd00d wrote:
LionsSlashWings wrote: To the OP. I think much of the same thing could be asked about Cutler. Neither are elite at this very juncture, and both have to elevate their game to the next level.

I mean who is it elite really when you think about it? There's only 4 guys (Rodgers, Brady, P.Manning & Brees)... and then there's just everybody else.

I tend to lump Stafford with Cutler in the sense that both have been under-achievers. I'll say this though. I was a huge Trestman fan and really wanted the Lions to can Schwartz a year earlier to pursue Trestman, before you guys snagged him up. And if there's anyone that can help Cutler lock it in?.. it's Trestman.
Ahhhh....but am not asking about Cutler.....it just muddies the waters.......I am just curious where you see your QB at this time in his career. And your opinion is very close to my own.
Ahhhh but the point is that *most* QBs are as good as their receivers.   jay cutler has two better than avg big receivers in jeffrey and someone he's played with for many years in marshall.  he's got a nice safety valve in forte.  so the comparison is valid because it helps to make a valid point :)

i haven't seen matt or jay make avg receivers look good or even great so i'd say they're not elite yet.   i'd say that jay has had a better supporting receiver cast  than matt up until now.   perhaps with an OC that intends to mix things up a bit, use every weapon at his disposal and get more creative vs linehan plus some decent receivers other than calvin and you may see matt take that next step.  stafford will likely have more audible leeway this year too.

manning, brady, brees and rodgers are guys that can take serviceable dudes and turn them into legit weapons within a scheme and shifting cast of supporting characters year in and year out.    i'd classify them as elite.
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Posted: 8/1/2014 1:28 AM

Re: Stafford 



ArgentBlue wrote:
ghostd00d wrote:
LionsSlashWings wrote: To the OP. I think much of the same thing could be asked about Cutler. Neither are elite at this very juncture, and both have to elevate their game to the next level.

I mean who is it elite really when you think about it? There's only 4 guys (Rodgers, Brady, P.Manning & Brees)... and then there's just everybody else.

I tend to lump Stafford with Cutler in the sense that both have been under-achievers. I'll say this though. I was a huge Trestman fan and really wanted the Lions to can Schwartz a year earlier to pursue Trestman, before you guys snagged him up. And if there's anyone that can help Cutler lock it in?.. it's Trestman.
Ahhhh....but am not asking about Cutler.....it just muddies the waters.......I am just curious where you see your QB at this time in his career. And your opinion is very close to my own.
Ahhhh but the point is that *most* QBs are as good as their receivers.   jay cutler has two better than avg big receivers in jeffrey and someone he's played with for many years in marshall.  he's got a nice safety valve in forte.  so the comparison is valid because it helps to make a valid point :)

i haven't seen matt or jay make avg receivers look good or even great so i'd say they're not elite yet.   i'd say that jay has had a better supporting receiver cast  than matt up until now.   perhaps with an OC that intends to mix things up a bit, use every weapon at his disposal and get more creative vs linehan plus some decent receivers other than calvin and you may see matt take that next step.  stafford will likely have more audible leeway this year too.

manning, brady, brees and rodgers are guys that can take serviceable dudes and turn them into legit weapons within a scheme and shifting cast of supporting characters year in and year out.    i'd classify them as elite.

Again...your opinion comes very close to mine.  This season should determine once and for all where these QB'S rate in NFL history.  Without a doubt the NFC North has 3 top tier QB's.  Rodgers, Stafford, and Cutler.  Either time to step up or step out.  Personally I hope that all 3 prove they are the best in the NFL.  Time to put Manning and Brady out to pasture

 

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Posted: 8/1/2014 2:48 AM

Re: Stafford 


yeah ghost I was one of Matthew Stafford's biggest supporters, but he really couldn't mask his mistakes in 2013 and they bit him square in the @$$.

they say Caldwell & Lombardi and the QB trainer have Matt working on those issues, but we won't know a damn thing until we watch him play about 5-6 games....and see if he's still making the same errors.

I mean hell we lay fans could spot these problems years ago, but nobody "tried" to help him then, or I suspect by now he would look much better.

IMO he's nowhere close to the other QB's BUT then we have been constantly rebuilding after the infamous 0-16, he didn't have a run game til sometime in 2013 when the paired Reggie Bush with Joique Bell.

( so, 1 season.) and largely...all we had was Calvin @ WR...the only one that was good, could stay pretty healthy, could routinely catch.

and the Lions have had like 28/29 HC's...and some of them were real Gems- lol.

but yeah this whole season is a big test for Stafford and the team.....if we took that next step.

I'm not seeing many wins, one day you hear the guys we drafted are doing well, the next time their not....so that's camp and rookies for ya.
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Posted: 8/1/2014 3:10 AM

Re: Stafford 


I am going to withold judgement. I think the Lions, Packers, and Bears have all improved this offseason. In my opinion the Bears the most. But none of us will have any idea until the first reports, cuts, etc take place. Preseason will be fun I will root for my Bears of course...but I am also pragmatic....the Packers employ the best QB in the NFL and the Vikings employ the best RB in the NFL. Can the Bears circumvent this? Good luck fans....:)

 

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Posted: 8/1/2014 6:26 AM

Re: Stafford 


nice to have a bears fan come one without the intent to antagonize or troll.  i think there's two thoughts on stafford.  one is that he is gifted and elite and has been held back by the failings of those around him.  the other is that he's good but not great and that we are over investing assets trying to "make" him great.

personally i'm in the latter camp.  i like him as a person and a player.  i think he is tough and has guts and has the respect of his coaches and teammates.  he plays hurt and does not play scared.  and he has an elite arm.

however, something is missing.  he is erratic and at times careless and does not have the ability to develop the receivers around him.  in fact, i think his inconsistency, whether due to footwork or throwing motion or just throwing too hard, might be part of the problem in getting receivers to develop.

i think the lions organization, and lions fan base, overall overestimates stafford.  we have gone "all in" trying to put playmakers around him on offense.  i think he's good, not great.  and i think we'd be better off recognizing that and trying to build a strong team around him (think differ and the ravens) rather than the greatest show on turf.
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Posted: 8/1/2014 7:29 AM

Re: Stafford 


Think of Jay Cutler without the mobility.  The guy is very inaccurate-his completion percentage and QB rating have always been awful (except one fluke season).  If the Lions lose Johnson last year, they finish with 4 wins-they lose Stafford, they are the same.
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Posted: 8/1/2014 8:02 AM

Re: Stafford 



Wiseacres wrote: NO. Not yet anyway. He's not even an elite QB with CJ. Right now, he's a middle of the road QB, ranked about 16th or so by many. He's gotta up his game and be more accurate and make fewer bad decisions IMHO. Many people think he's got the potential to be really good, but at some point potential has to be realized, and Stafford is about at that point.
Sums it up perfectly
#NONEpride

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Posted: 8/1/2014 8:10 AM

Re: Stafford 


Talent wise, he's a top 10 qb. Btw the ears, he drops quite a bit. He's smart, but makes a lot of dumb throws. Also lacks that tenacious leadership you see Brady and manning show during the duration of a game.. Matt kind of only turns that switch when it's necessary and is in cruise control the rest of the time... Need more killer instinct
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Posted: 8/1/2014 8:14 AM

Re: Stafford 


Like many have stated, Stafford has been a good NFL quarterback.  I think we forget he is still pretty young and has the potential and tools to be great if not elite.  But he has a lot of work to get there and I don't know if he will improve beyond good.  I believe that the next two years are going to be the years that define Stafford as a qb.
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Posted: 8/1/2014 8:49 AM

Re: Stafford 


he isn't quite elite with CJ, but possibly good enough with the right pieces on both sides of the ball and ST.... I don't think there would be much drop off for Stafford without CJ because he's the highest paid WR in the league im pretty sure we could get a couple really good WRs in place of CJs salary.

 

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Posted: 8/1/2014 9:23 AM

Re: Stafford 


In short

Skill=Potential
level of execution=level of success

or

Stafford is extremely skilled, but he has to execute better.  Can he be elite, I believe so.  He chooses the correct reciever in most ocassions, has the ability to make every throw, yada yada blah blah

He just hasn't.  Why?

Similar to Verlander, I think he needs to mature.  Stop throwing the uber heater erverytime.  Sometimes a little touch on the ball would be nice.  When he gets that, he will be elite.  untill then he's an amped up Juggs machine.
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Posted: 8/1/2014 10:06 AM

Re: Stafford 


While I believe that Stafford has it within him to be Elite, he has not crossed that line yet. I am hoping that with the new Coaching staff and the expertise that they bring we will finally get a chance to see him cross that line.
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