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Lions best and worst contracts...

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Posted: 7/8/2014 3:22 PM

Lions best and worst contracts... 


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Posted: 7/8/2014 3:53 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 


That article isn't exactly fun to read about our cap management.

For cap gurus what other options were there to do for the Suh contract and the salary cap I wonder. There should be a Deadstroke signal for an article like this.
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Posted: 7/8/2014 4:15 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 


I don't see any other option here....

Suh can't be forced to re do his deal
The lions kicked the can down the road

In a nutshell, this could be avoided if.....

A. We didn't kick the can
B. Suh re did his deal

In the end, we have to pay the piper now and we are stuck with a toxic contract we got to keep. Sucks, but what else do we do?
"He was the backup last year. He was a backup the year before that.He's been a back up his whole career. I don't think anybody would be surprised if I thought he was a backup".

Martin Mayhew on Dan Orlovsky. Detroit Free Press, 2.21.09
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Posted: 7/8/2014 4:22 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 



Replace your so called cap guru.. Having to use FA dollars to replace busted draft picks doesn't help either..

---------------------------------------------
--- VinceLombardisGhost wrote:

I don't see any other option here....

Suh can't be forced to re do his deal
The lions kicked the can down the road

In a nutshell, this could be avoided if.....

A. We didn't kick the can
B. Suh re did his deal

In the end, we have to pay the piper now and we are stuck with a toxic contract we got to keep. Sucks, but what else do we do?

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 7/8/2014 5:33 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 


It happens in the NFL.

If it were as simple as taking safe picks and having them become all pros, there would be no dominant teams in the NFL.

While I don't think they deserve relief, the Lions were indeed victims of the old salary scale for rookies. Suh is, with any luck, the last of that.

However it's an issue we are facing. And would likely be in a number of other cities.


---------------------------------------------
--- MotorCityManiac wrote:


Replace your so called cap guru.. Having to use FA dollars to replace busted draft picks doesn't help either..

---------------------------------------------
--- VinceLombardisGhost wrote:

I don't see any other option here....

Suh can't be forced to re do his deal
The lions kicked the can down the road

In a nutshell, this could be avoided if.....

A. We didn't kick the can
B. Suh re did his deal

In the end, we have to pay the piper now and we are stuck with a toxic contract we got to keep. Sucks, but what else do we do?

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
"He was the backup last year. He was a backup the year before that.He's been a back up his whole career. I don't think anybody would be surprised if I thought he was a backup".

Martin Mayhew on Dan Orlovsky. Detroit Free Press, 2.21.09
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Posted: 7/8/2014 6:49 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 


I understand busts happen but to me looking at the big picture, we are a mediocre team that is busting at the seams when it comes to the cap.. It's not like we are the only team in the league that has 3 high priced players..


---------------------------------------------
--- VinceLombardisGhost wrote:

It happens in the NFL.

If it were as simple as taking safe picks and having them become all pros, there would be no dominant teams in the NFL.

While I don't think they deserve relief, the Lions were indeed victims of the old salary scale for rookies. Suh is, with any luck, the last of that.

However it's an issue we are facing. And would likely be in a number of other cities.


---------------------------------------------
--- MotorCityManiac wrote:


Replace your so called cap guru.. Having to use FA dollars to replace busted draft picks doesn't help either..

---------------------------------------------
--- VinceLombardisGhost wrote:

I don't see any other option here....

Suh can't be forced to re do his deal
The lions kicked the can down the road

In a nutshell, this could be avoided if.....

A. We didn't kick the can
B. Suh re did his deal

In the end, we have to pay the piper now and we are stuck with a toxic contract we got to keep. Sucks, but what else do we do?

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 7/8/2014 7:06 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 



MotorCityManiac wrote: I understand busts happen but to me looking at the big picture, we are a mediocre team that is busting at the seams when it comes to the cap.. It's not like we are the only team in the league that has 3 high priced players..



Indeed you do.

I love being back with .gif avatars....



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Posted: 7/8/2014 7:15 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 



As long as they don't happen premature everything is good.. lol

---------------------------------------------
--- weaselpuppy wrote:


MotorCityManiac wrote: I understand busts happen but to me looking at the big picture, we are a mediocre team that is busting at the seams when it comes to the cap.. It's not like we are the only team in the league that has 3 high priced players..



Indeed you do.

I love being back with .gif avatars....

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 7/8/2014 10:16 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 



VinceLombardisGhost wrote: Sucks, but what else do we do?

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
I would start by firing Tom Lewand today.  He must have pictures or something.
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Posted: 7/8/2014 10:20 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 


Everyone loved Suh and Mayhew when Suh reworked his deal to push the money to later.

Mayhew was a "cap wizard" for getting the extra cap space in previous seasons with Suh reworks.


People seem to have very short memories.
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Posted: 7/8/2014 11:02 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 



VinceLombardisGhost wrote:

While I don't think they deserve relief, the Lions were indeed victims of the old salary scale for rookies. Suh is, with any luck, the last of that.

We are victims and blessed by it at the same time.  The salaries of those guys helped to mold how we approached our roster, and we don't have to make a big decision simply because they are due a payday.  Look at Suh.  How much more is he going to make vs his rookie contract?  Not much, which is saying a lot when its this many years later and you've got this much more cap to work with.  When we sign our big time players (CJ, Stafford and soon Suh) we don't have to blow up the roster like some other teams do.  They were already amongst the leagues highest paid players.  Even Pettigrew's contract was a small increase over what he was already making.

I disagree with the premise the writer had that somehow our contracts are so unbelievably terrible that it was hard to find a good one.  Pat Kirwan said when he was GM, he would turn over every rock to find an undrafted free agent to make the final roster...because there was simply no player cheaper than an UDFA and he would help offset some other contract.  He said he even forced a few UDFA's onto the roster knowing they weren't as good as some more expensive vets, but he needed the money savings.  We had two UDFA's that not only made the roster but contributed...Fauria and Waddle.  Our all star level OG was a 3rd round pick with a super cheap salary.  Our starting LT on a decent offensive line had a total cap hit of $1.8M and has cap hits the next two seasons of $2.1M and $2.5M.  DeAndre Levy played at a pro bowl caliber level and had a $2M cap hit, with just over $3M for 2014.  Joique Bell?  $630k.  Glover Quin played for $2M last year, which is less than Delmas is making this upcoming season.  He only gets into the $4M range for this season, and levels off in that area. 

Sorry, I've seen the Lions mismanage cap space before, and this is not it.  The Suh contract restructure lost of leverage we never had to begin with.  What it did was create enough cap space to sign deals with guys like Bush and Quin.  I'm all for restructuring players you know will be on the roster and contributing, because the increase in the cap makes the point moot.  Go get your free agents now, and the cap increase in the future will pay for it.  The alternative is not signing guys now, then signing guys like them in the future for more money than you would have because its a few years later.

Oh, and to one of the main premise of calling the drafting of Suh a bad pick because DT's aren't worth it.  There are only a handful of players Bill Belicheck has chosen to keep around to resign with hefty salaries.  One was Tom Brady, and two of the others were DT's.  There was a third DT who recorded 1 assisted tackle in a Super Bowl as his only stat line (Ted Washington), that Belicheck later said he considered the MVP of the game.  I've said it before...DTs are one of the most valuable assets you can have.  We happen to have the best one in the league.  But as I have made the analogy before, they are like great ground ball pitchers.  They can't help it if they shortstop can't turn a double play.
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Posted: 7/8/2014 11:51 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 


Good post, Wes.

I think forgotten in this is the number of lower round or undrafted guys we found who actually have contributed to our core that DO help offset the price we are paying for Suh. Are we paying more than usual? Sure, but are we also paying him a salary for, like you said, the addition of higher priced guys who should have (in theory) helped this team last year? (again, we had a very strong team until the Pittsburgh game when the wheels fell off and NOBODY was complaining)

I really like this notion.
"He was the backup last year. He was a backup the year before that.He's been a back up his whole career. I don't think anybody would be surprised if I thought he was a backup".

Martin Mayhew on Dan Orlovsky. Detroit Free Press, 2.21.09
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Posted: 7/9/2014 12:31 AM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 



VinceLombardisGhost wrote: I don't see any other option here....

Suh can't be forced to re do his deal
The lions kicked the can down the road

In a nutshell, this could be avoided if.....

A. We didn't kick the can
B. Suh re did his deal

In the end, we have to pay the piper now and we are stuck with a toxic contract we got to keep. Sucks, but what else do we do?
It does suck, bad decisions on the GM/money guy's part can destroy a franchise.   In my opinion, this should have been easily foreseen if not for ego/gambling.  Making contract decisions thinking you are in a win now mode rather than just very close can derail a team faster than Josh Gordon pounding/snorting/shooting/sniffing/slamming/parac huting/huffing/ingesting/blowing ...beers/coke/heroin/glue/speed/benzos/spray paint/weed brownies/homeless guys

Last edited 7/9/2014 12:32 AM by trump32

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Posted: 7/9/2014 1:16 AM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 



wesleysh21 wrote:
VinceLombardisGhost wrote:

While I don't think they deserve relief, the Lions were indeed victims of the old salary scale for rookies. Suh is, with any luck, the last of that.

We are victims and blessed by it at the same time.  The salaries of those guys helped to mold how we approached our roster, and we don't have to make a big decision simply because they are due a payday.  Look at Suh.  How much more is he going to make vs his rookie contract?  Not much, which is saying a lot when its this many years later and you've got this much more cap to work with.  When we sign our big time players (CJ, Stafford and soon Suh) we don't have to blow up the roster like some other teams do.  They were already amongst the leagues highest paid players.  Even Pettigrew's contract was a small increase over what he was already making.

I disagree with the premise the writer had that somehow our contracts are so unbelievably terrible that it was hard to find a good one.  Pat Kirwan said when he was GM, he would turn over every rock to find an undrafted free agent to make the final roster...because there was simply no player cheaper than an UDFA and he would help offset some other contract.  He said he even forced a few UDFA's onto the roster knowing they weren't as good as some more expensive vets, but he needed the money savings.  We had two UDFA's that not only made the roster but contributed...Fauria and Waddle.  Our all star level OG was a 3rd round pick with a super cheap salary.  Our starting LT on a decent offensive line had a total cap hit of $1.8M and has cap hits the next two seasons of $2.1M and $2.5M.  DeAndre Levy played at a pro bowl caliber level and had a $2M cap hit, with just over $3M for 2014.  Joique Bell?  $630k.  Glover Quin played for $2M last year, which is less than Delmas is making this upcoming season.  He only gets into the $4M range for this season, and levels off in that area. 

Sorry, I've seen the Lions mismanage cap space before, and this is not it.  The Suh contract restructure lost of leverage we never had to begin with.  What it did was create enough cap space to sign deals with guys like Bush and Quin.  I'm all for restructuring players you know will be on the roster and contributing, because the increase in the cap makes the point moot.  Go get your free agents now, and the cap increase in the future will pay for it.  The alternative is not signing guys now, then signing guys like them in the future for more money than you would have because its a few years later.

Oh, and to one of the main premise of calling the drafting of Suh a bad pick because DT's aren't worth it.  There are only a handful of players Bill Belicheck has chosen to keep around to resign with hefty salaries.  One was Tom Brady, and two of the others were DT's.  There was a third DT who recorded 1 assisted tackle in a Super Bowl as his only stat line (Ted Washington), that Belicheck later said he considered the MVP of the game.  I've said it before...DTs are one of the most valuable assets you can have.  We happen to have the best one in the league.  But as I have made the analogy before, they are like great ground ball pitchers.  They can't help it if they shortstop can't turn a double play.

EXCELLENT POINTS, makes me wish you were a Bears fan.  On Scout Bears fans are pretty great, but elsewhere they are incapable of rational discussion.  The Packers fans chiming in with nothing more than "WE PWNZ YOUR TEAM" don't help either.  It's refreshing to see a poster that can think to another level.
 
Every team has to deal with the cap situation.  The ones that can consistently stay ahead of the curve are more successful than those that cannot.  Right now the GM that will preside over the next dynasty is not thinking of using the upcoming cap increase as a solution to current contract problems, but is taking advantage of the current, team-friendly FA marketplace to lure FAs in long-term at reduced prices to create draft flexibility..  Once they can draft as they want, the next step is to sign the ONE FA that will take you to the Superbowl and win it.
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Posted: 7/9/2014 7:27 AM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 


Great post above Wes. Really well done.

I think the author could have also included Rob Sim's contract as well. A guy who is an average and solid starter making very reasonable money.

Starting CB R. Mathis also is cheap on a one year deal. Seems to me LBer S. Tulloch is also signed to a very reasonable deal as well. And D. Levy (after his really good 2013) is also signed at a reasonable price as well.

Yep, Suh's contract number is crazy. But we all understand how and why this happened.
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Posted: 7/9/2014 10:14 AM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 


That's because everyone assumed the Lions would have done what other teams do and locked Suh up with a long term contract before he hit the last yr of a balloon payment.. We are a mediocre team that is in cap hell, you don't get that way unless you have a $hitty cap guy that doesn't have a plan..


---------------------------------------------
--- WestCoastLionsFan wrote:

Everyone loved Suh and Mayhew when Suh reworked his deal to push the money to later.

Mayhew was a "cap wizard" for getting the extra cap space in previous seasons with Suh reworks.


People seem to have very short memories.

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 7/9/2014 2:09 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 


We have more talent position by position than any Lions team I can remember. We are saddled with one bad contract, we all know why. If we trade Suh to a team in the playoff hunt after week 8 they can franchise him for @ $12 million next year and franchise him the next for @ $15 million. Not a bad deal, getting a probowl DT for 2 1/2 seasons for $27 million. We get a player and draft pick, minimum. Beats the hell out of getting a 3rd round pick. People are under the impression that Suh gets a jackpot whether we keep him or not. Well, he doesn't if we trade him, and that is the nuclear option. Denver, Cincy, New England, I could see several scenarios where we could trade Suh and get something decent in return as well as having him for the first half of the year. This is hardly Tom's fault, they tell him who they want and he has to figure out how to make it work. He did his job, everyone knew what was coming with the Suh contract.
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Posted: 7/9/2014 6:13 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 



wesleysh21 wrote:
VinceLombardisGhost wrote:

While I don't think they deserve relief, the Lions were indeed victims of the old salary scale for rookies. Suh is, with any luck, the last of that.

We are victims and blessed by it at the same time.  The salaries of those guys helped to mold how we approached our roster, and we don't have to make a big decision simply because they are due a payday.  Look at Suh.  How much more is he going to make vs his rookie contract?  Not much, which is saying a lot when its this many years later and you've got this much more cap to work with.  When we sign our big time players (CJ, Stafford and soon Suh) we don't have to blow up the roster like some other teams do.  They were already amongst the leagues highest paid players.  Even Pettigrew's contract was a small increase over what he was already making.

I disagree with the premise the writer had that somehow our contracts are so unbelievably terrible that it was hard to find a good one.  Pat Kirwan said when he was GM, he would turn over every rock to find an undrafted free agent to make the final roster...because there was simply no player cheaper than an UDFA and he would help offset some other contract.  He said he even forced a few UDFA's onto the roster knowing they weren't as good as some more expensive vets, but he needed the money savings.  We had two UDFA's that not only made the roster but contributed...Fauria and Waddle.  Our all star level OG was a 3rd round pick with a super cheap salary.  Our starting LT on a decent offensive line had a total cap hit of $1.8M and has cap hits the next two seasons of $2.1M and $2.5M.  DeAndre Levy played at a pro bowl caliber level and had a $2M cap hit, with just over $3M for 2014.  Joique Bell?  $630k.  Glover Quin played for $2M last year, which is less than Delmas is making this upcoming season.  He only gets into the $4M range for this season, and levels off in that area. 

Sorry, I've seen the Lions mismanage cap space before, and this is not it.  The Suh contract restructure lost of leverage we never had to begin with.  What it did was create enough cap space to sign deals with guys like Bush and Quin.  I'm all for restructuring players you know will be on the roster and contributing, because the increase in the cap makes the point moot.  Go get your free agents now, and the cap increase in the future will pay for it.  The alternative is not signing guys now, then signing guys like them in the future for more money than you would have because its a few years later.

Oh, and to one of the main premise of calling the drafting of Suh a bad pick because DT's aren't worth it.  There are only a handful of players Bill Belicheck has chosen to keep around to resign with hefty salaries.  One was Tom Brady, and two of the others were DT's.  There was a third DT who recorded 1 assisted tackle in a Super Bowl as his only stat line (Ted Washington), that Belicheck later said he considered the MVP of the game.  I've said it before...DTs are one of the most valuable assets you can have.  We happen to have the best one in the league.  But as I have made the analogy before, they are like great ground ball pitchers.  They can't help it if they shortstop can't turn a double play.
This is a good post Wes as others have pointed out.  Most of the props belong to Mayhew though.  It's his undrafted free agents, his 3rd round pick.  I"m not advocating firing Mayew.  Tom Lewand, on the other hand, is doing a terrible job.  And deserves to be fired.  He's only here now because the Ford family values friendships over winning.
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Posted: 7/9/2014 8:49 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 



socko wrote:
VinceLombardisGhost wrote: Sucks, but what else do we do?

I would start by firing Tom Lewand today.  He must have pictures or something.

Pisses me off -- I remember we had a thread where people here were calling Lewand a genius, a guru -- which at the time I said was complete nonsense (not sure anyone agreed with me).  Any half-assed accountant can blunder the salary cap like Lewand has.

Unless you are primed to make a serious run at the SB (cliche one FA away), I see no wisdom in restructuring players.
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Posted: 7/9/2014 8:50 PM

Re: Lions best and worst contracts... 



WestCoastLionsFan wrote: Everyone loved Suh and Mayhew when Suh reworked his deal to push the money to later.

Mayhew was a "cap wizard" for getting the extra cap space in previous seasons with Suh reworks.


People seem to have very short memories.
Not me man -- I remember it well.
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