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It's Suh's Fault

Posted: 6/8/2014 12:16 PM

It's Suh's Fault 


I think most of us rush to judgement when there is an issue between our team and one of our players. I'm not happy that we don't have a deal in place for Suh, and I am a little po'd that he changed agents at a fairly late date and at this point we have no deal. But, I also know that he did what he had to do to renegotiate his contract when asked to make room to get the players/team that we now have. There is nothing in his previous actions that would indicate that he isn't a "team" guy. We all want this over with, but I think it's fair to consider that this organization has created this situation and we are where we are because of how we kicked the can down the road. In the end, I'm sure he's going to get paid, but as always the details are killer for this organization. We need him not just this year, we need him to be part of the future of this team. While it's great to see the new Nick show up in camp, we need ALL of our players to make it to the next level. It's getting too close to "go time", and we could use some FA dough just in case. I quit holding my breath on this, I'd just like it done one way or another like everyone else. Hopefully both sides can find some common ground soon.
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Posted: 6/8/2014 4:27 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


I suspect Suh will be resigned but I think he will make the decision based on where he thinks the team is headed. I believe he may be waiting to see the methods and abilities of the current staff before he commits to his second contract. My hope would be a deal prior to training camp but there is no incentive to drive Ndamukong to rush into anything. Loyalty to a club is a thing of the past; it is what it is. There is no leverage for Detroit. If I'm Suh, I'm not rushing into anything and frankly he would be silly to do so.

I hope a deal is reached soon but the "can" has been kicked into Suh's corner and he may very well take it to another town. He may choose to stay; but that is the issue here- he has to choose to stay. I know the deal offered him will be fair. Will he view it as good enough? IDK
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Posted: 6/8/2014 7:09 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


I think it's Lewands fault.  We have overpaid so badly that it really hurts this team.  The Fairley thing was a breath of fresh air because the Lion thing to do would have been to extend him for 5 years.  Lewand should be fired.  No way this team should have the cap trouble it does.  We're not that good.  Only his incompetence has got us here.
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Posted: 6/8/2014 7:26 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 



socko wrote: I think it's Lewands fault.  We have overpaid so badly that it really hurts this team.  The Fairley thing was a breath of fresh air because the Lion thing to do would have been to extend him for 5 years.  Lewand should be fired.  No way this team should have the cap trouble it does.  We're not that good.  Only his incompetence has got us here.
Um, this basically has zero to do with Lewand.  CJ is CJ.  Stafford was a #1 overall pick at the height of the rookie insanity, with Suh as a #2 right after. 

Trying to flesh out the rest of the roster with decent talent is a challenge given the above, and nobody is happy with the results as it pertains to wins and losses, but the fact that Lewand was asked by Mayhew to rework whatever deals he has thus far has nothing to do with incompetence on the part of Lewand.
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Posted: 6/8/2014 8:00 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


Neither CJ nor Matt are on their rookie contracts anymore.  This is getting as old as blaming it on Matt Millen.  We're maxed out against the cap and we've 1 playoff win ever.  And it wasn't with these guys.  That's the cold hard facts.  They're grossly overpaid.

Last edited 6/8/2014 8:00 PM by socko

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Posted: 6/8/2014 9:56 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


Matt is grossly overpaid. CJ I wouldn't say so.



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Posted: 6/9/2014 9:48 AM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


Not Matt's fault. This team "should have" had been close to where it is NOW when Stafford joined. because had Matt joined a team with it's s#!7 together to begin with , and you wouldn't be setting here saying "Matt is grossly overpaid."

problem is Stafford pretty much was screwed out the gate...injured his first two seasons, joined a incomplete -constanly rebuilding team that was scraped out of the gutter after going 0-16.

THANK GOD we had Calvin - because we had nobody else Offensively for Matt to rely on. team was full of holes. we still have holes and question marks.
Matt started rough, but began playing well (2011) and kind of hid his issues, problems with mechanics, footwork, accuracy, decision making and that....it wasn't until 2013 when you heard Schwartz and them say anything about "getting him help" and they did nothing....NOW Caldwell and them are supposed to be getting him that help this offseason.

but WHO makes the final decision that oh "I'm going to pay Stafford silly money" and actually pays him that eye opening amount? somebody on the staff does....

but my point is: IF Matt had a nice 2-3 man receiver unit, and a nice RB unit,and a nice O line and Defense BEFORE like in 2010 for example, you wouldn't really say he was overpaid because he would have kicked more ass INSTEAD, we were a mess.
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Posted: 6/9/2014 10:09 AM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


According to this PFF article, the Lions are really overpaid much at all. 

https://www.profootballfocus.c...-detroit-lions/
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Posted: 6/9/2014 10:49 AM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


It's mindblowing to me how quickly everyone forgets that Suh redid his deal multiple times to create room for the Lions.

It's not Suh's fault.  It's the Lion's fault.  They kicked the can down the road...now they are dealing with it.

Let me see if I can help the fans that are mad at Suh...

Your employer offers you $1,000,000 to work for them over 5 years @ $200,000 a year.  You're excited about the deal.  You take it.

  • Year 1 - They pay you $200,000.  Sweet!!!
  • Year 2 - They pay you $200,000.  Awesome!!
  • Year 3 - Your boss approaches you and says..."Yeah...we're having some money problems.  Can we give you $100,000 this year and $300,000 next year?"  - You're a team player, so you say, "Sure.  Count me in."
  • Year 4 - Your boss approaches you and says "Yeah...that $300,000 we owe you.  Is it cool if we give you $100,000 again this year and $400,000 next year?"  Again, you are a team player and agree to the change.
  • Year 5 - You've done great work for the company.  You're excited about your $400,000 payout this year and the prospect of being able to stay with or leave the company next year for another one.  Word is, several other companies out there are willing to pay you even more than this one!


Do you say "Eh, no big deal.  I'll take less money to stay with this company that keeps changing my deal so they can afford their other employees."  Or, do you say "Pay me my $400,000 and we'll talk about what is next" since you have other prospects.

I'm with Suh on his decision making, 100%.  This cap issue they are experiencing is the fault of the organization...and maybe the NFL's for letting the rookie contracts get so out of control in the 1st place.

Anyone blaming this on Suh just doesn't get it.  He's not a bad guy.  He's owed compensation for his work that was previously agreed upon.  He's moved his # several times in the past to help the team out and is no longer in a position where he can do so other than saying "Yeah, it's cool if you pay me less money than I could get elsewhere."  Why would anyone in their right mind do that?  Why does this make him the bad guy?

Because Mike Valenti or some hoot out there said so?  Guess so...

Baaaaah
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Posted: 6/9/2014 10:50 AM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


Why is everyone blaming SUH?

I'll start with him changing agents ..... It doesn't matter and has zero effect on him getting a deal done. Every rookie we have had to get an agent and negotiate a deal. Inhedigbo did not have an agent and we got him done right after he signed one. It takes one day to sit down and hammer out a deal. The Lions have pushed SUH off at every turn. Did you know he wanted to meet with Mayhew at the combine to get a deal done. Mayhew refused. Told him to take his time at getting the right agent and they would get the deal done after.

The Lions never wanted to get Suhs deal done early. I think because of three reasons.

1) "cap strategy" They really did not need to get him done early and by getting him done early they wouldn't know how much they would need after free agents and the draft. The Lions chose to sit back and wait that way they can pay SUH as much as possible This year and stop the pushing off of contract money.

2) "leverage" No NFL player wants to play on a one year deal because of fear of injury. SUH wants to get paid. He wants his gaurrenteed money. By holding off as long as possible the Lions increase their Leverage. Urgency due to fear of injury starts when training camp starts. SUH is going to be more willing to work with the Lions once he know the Lions do not "have to" restructure him this year. He doesn't want to play on his final year and be in fear of the franchise tag.

3) "3-4" is it possible the Lions plan to leave the option open to go to a 3-4 if they want too after this season. Wit Fairleys option not exercised and SUH not getting his big contract. I have to wonder if the lions are contemplating a possible switch in the near future?

My point is I think the reason SUH is not sign is because the Lions don't want him sign just yet. When and if they want him sign he will be. As of right now they have made no efforts.

So please stop blaming SUH.
"When I die I want the Detroit Lions to be my pallbearer's so they can let me down one last time." "I hope they sing the song Another One Bites the Dust for me."
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Posted: 6/9/2014 11:31 AM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 





---------------------------------------------
--- DiehardWisdom wrote:

It's mindblowing to me how quickly everyone forgets that Suh redid his deal multiple times to create room for the Lions.

It's not Suh's fault.  It's the Lion's fault.  They kicked the can down the road...now they are dealing with it.

Let me see if I can help the fans that are mad at Suh...

Your employer offers you $1,000,000 to work for them over 5 years @ $200,000 a year.  You're excited about the deal.  You take it.

  • Year 1 - They pay you $200,000.  Sweet!!!
  • Year 2 - They pay you $200,000.  Awesome!!
  • Year 3 - Your boss approaches you and says..."Yeah...we're having some money problems.  Can we give you $100,000 this year and $300,000 next year?"  - You're a team player, so you say, "Sure.  Count me in."
  • Year 4 - Your boss approaches you and says "Yeah...that $300,000 we owe you.  Is it cool if we give you $100,000 again this year and $400,000 next year?"  Again, you are a team player and agree to the change.
  • Year 5 - You've done great work for the company.  You're excited about your $400,000 payout this year and the prospect of being able to stay with or leave the company next year for another one.  Word is, several other companies out there are willing to pay you even more than this one!


Do you say "Eh, no big deal.  I'll take less money to stay with this company that keeps changing my deal so they can afford their other employees."  Or, do you say "Pay me my $400,000 and we'll talk about what is next" since you have other prospects.

I'm with Suh on his decision making, 100%.  This cap issue they are experiencing is the fault of the organization...and maybe the NFL's for letting the rookie contracts get so out of control in the 1st place.

Anyone blaming this on Suh just doesn't get it.  He's not a bad guy.  He's owed compensation for his work that was previously agreed upon.  He's moved his # several times in the past to help the team out and is no longer in a position where he can do so other than saying "Yeah, it's cool if you pay me less money than I could get elsewhere."  Why would anyone in their right mind do that?  Why does this make him the bad guy?

Because Mike Valenti or some hoot out there said so?  Guess so...

Baaaaah

---------------------------------------------
Sorry. You are sadly mistaken on what Suh did when he "restructured". Basically, it appears you are under the assumption that he gets each year what his cap number is that year, which is not the case. In other words, the Lions are NOT paying Suh 22 million dollars this season --- that's his cap number this year, but NOT what they owe him.

When he restructured, it was more like:
Your company gives you a million dollar contract over 4 years, but only $200,000 is guaranteed just for signing the contract. Then, your salary is $200,000 a year for 4 years, but they can fire you at any point and not give you that money. Then, each year to make their books work, they go ahead and give you some of next years salary as guaranteed signing bonus --- up front cash like that initial payment they gave you.

What that does for them is --- money labelled as "signing bonus" can be spread out against the cap evenly throughout the duration of the contract, even though it's all already been paid. So, Suh had no reason NOT to restructure. He got his money up front that way.

I'm not saying Suh did anything wrong. Just that he didn't do anything charitable either. He did what every player would OBVIOUSLY do if asked too --- take your money up front and that way the team can call it "guaranteed signing bonus" and spread it out against the cap.

So, again, the Lions do NOT still owe Suh a 22 million dollar check to play this year.

Landon
The draft will tell a lot about who we are going to draft. - lionking299

I think we're going to draft guys that we can use, starters or backups depending on how fast they develop. - wiseacres
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Posted: 6/9/2014 11:50 AM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 



Landon wrote:


---------------------------------------------
--- DiehardWisdom wrote:

It's mindblowing to me how quickly everyone forgets that Suh redid his deal multiple times to create room for the Lions.

It's not Suh's fault.  It's the Lion's fault.  They kicked the can down the road...now they are dealing with it.

Let me see if I can help the fans that are mad at Suh...

Your employer offers you $1,000,000 to work for them over 5 years @ $200,000 a year.  You're excited about the deal.  You take it.

  • Year 1 - They pay you $200,000.  Sweet!!!
  • Year 2 - They pay you $200,000.  Awesome!!
  • Year 3 - Your boss approaches you and says..."Yeah...we're having some money problems.  Can we give you $100,000 this year and $300,000 next year?"  - You're a team player, so you say, "Sure.  Count me in."
  • Year 4 - Your boss approaches you and says "Yeah...that $300,000 we owe you.  Is it cool if we give you $100,000 again this year and $400,000 next year?"  Again, you are a team player and agree to the change.
  • Year 5 - You've done great work for the company.  You're excited about your $400,000 payout this year and the prospect of being able to stay with or leave the company next year for another one.  Word is, several other companies out there are willing to pay you even more than this one!


Do you say "Eh, no big deal.  I'll take less money to stay with this company that keeps changing my deal so they can afford their other employees."  Or, do you say "Pay me my $400,000 and we'll talk about what is next" since you have other prospects.

I'm with Suh on his decision making, 100%.  This cap issue they are experiencing is the fault of the organization...and maybe the NFL's for letting the rookie contracts get so out of control in the 1st place.

Anyone blaming this on Suh just doesn't get it.  He's not a bad guy.  He's owed compensation for his work that was previously agreed upon.  He's moved his # several times in the past to help the team out and is no longer in a position where he can do so other than saying "Yeah, it's cool if you pay me less money than I could get elsewhere."  Why would anyone in their right mind do that?  Why does this make him the bad guy?

Because Mike Valenti or some hoot out there said so?  Guess so...

Baaaaah

---------------------------------------------
Sorry. You are sadly mistaken on what Suh did when he "restructured". Basically, it appears you are under the assumption that he gets each year what his cap number is that year, which is not the case. In other words, the Lions are NOT paying Suh 22 million dollars this season --- that's his cap number this year, but NOT what they owe him.

When he restructured, it was more like:
Your company gives you a million dollar contract over 4 years, but only $200,000 is guaranteed just for signing the contract. Then, your salary is $200,000 a year for 4 years, but they can fire you at any point and not give you that money. Then, each year to make their books work, they go ahead and give you some of next years salary as guaranteed signing bonus --- up front cash like that initial payment they gave you.

What that does for them is --- money labelled as "signing bonus" can be spread out against the cap evenly throughout the duration of the contract, even though it's all already been paid. So, Suh had no reason NOT to restructure. He got his money up front that way.

I'm not saying Suh did anything wrong. Just that he didn't do anything charitable either. He did what every player would OBVIOUSLY do if asked too --- take your money up front and that way the team can call it "guaranteed signing bonus" and spread it out against the cap.

So, again, the Lions do NOT still owe Suh a 22 million dollar check to play this year.

Landon

First of all, I wouldn't say I'm "sadly mistaken".  I am aware of the intricacies...just trying to paint it in a picture that makes sense.  It's not 100% accurate...but it's hard to do that when comparing an NFL player's contract with a "normal" job's pay structure.  My mistake was probably trying to do so in the 1st place.

I still believe Suh DID do something "charitable" because what he did allowed the Lions to afford their players.  He did something to help the organization.  Yes, it had no negative impact on him, but he still allowed the organization to fiddle with his contract and #'s to allow the team to afford their players.  He could have declined.

Any way you slice it, the organization put themselves in this situation, right?
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Posted: 6/9/2014 2:23 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


Well your both slightly incorrect on what transpired or how it transpired.

Let's look at Suhs history

$13.755M initially guaranteed (2010-12 base + 2010 roster bonus)
$24.545M more guaranteed in 2011
2010 Roster Bonus: $2.78 million
2011 Escalator: $1 million (from $405,000)
2011 Roster Bonus: $7.195 million
2011 Option Bonus: $17.35 million
2011 Suspension Adjustment: -$165,294
2012 Restructure Bonus: $9.71 million
2012-14 Workout Bonus: $125,000
NLTBE Incentives: $8 million
2013 Restructure: $11.52 million / 3 years
2013: Fined $100,000

Suh restructured in 2011, and 2013.

Each time he restructured he turned base salary to Garrenteed money that deferred moneys to the latter part of his contract.

That gaurrenteed money was paid to him up front each year but was allocated to future years.

The problem started with Suhs rookie contract. It had crazy bonuses that were believed unattainable. However he hit those bonuses that the Lions never thought he would. Starting a snow ball effect ....

Keep in mind in past years the incentive for Suh to restructure was so the Lions could sign free agents by allocating money too a later date. The Lions knew they would eventually have to pay the piper. I believe the Lions have chosen to pay that piper now. That's why Suhs not getting reworked. The Lions do not want to get themselves into the same vicious cycle. This is the year their going to say "stop enough"...

The Lions are going to pay Suh as much money as they possibly can this year.... It woudnt shock me if we let him play out his final year even.
"When I die I want the Detroit Lions to be my pallbearer's so they can let me down one last time." "I hope they sing the song Another One Bites the Dust for me."
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Posted: 6/9/2014 2:33 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 



DiehardWisdom wrote:
 

First of all, I wouldn't say I'm "sadly mistaken".  I am aware of the intricacies...just trying to paint it in a picture that makes sense.  It's not 100% accurate...but it's hard to do that when comparing an NFL player's contract with a "normal" job's pay structure.  My mistake was probably trying to do so in the 1st place.

I still believe Suh DID do something "charitable" because what he did allowed the Lions to afford their players.  He did something to help the organization.  Yes, it had no negative impact on him, but he still allowed the organization to fiddle with his contract and #'s to allow the team to afford their players.  He could have declined.

Any way you slice it, the organization put themselves in this situation, right?
Diehard,

I agree that its hard to draw direct parallels between sports and real world jobs.  However, you did such a good job of being clear and concise explaining it, that it showed that you are missing something fundamental regarding the Suh deal.  I'll explain, with a copy and paste from your post, changing the details to what actually applies:


Your employer offers you $1,000,000 to work for them over 5 years @ $200,000 a year.  You're excited about the deal.  You take it.
  • Year 1 - They pay you $200,000.  Sweet!!!
  • Year 2 - They pay you $200,000.  Awesome!!
  • Year 3 - Your boss approaches you and says..."Yeah...we're having some money problems.  Can we give you $150,000 or your salary right now in a lumpsum bonus payment, instead of in your weekly paycheck?"  - You ask "what's the catch?"  Your boss says "no catch.  If we pay you $150,000 of your salary in an upfront lumpsum payment, we get to carry the accounting of it into future years, that's all.  You will still get paid a total of $200,000 for the year, and $50,000 will still be given over weekly paychecks."  This is a no brainer, you do it.  You made $200,000 but it looked to accounting like you only made $100,000.
  • Year 4 - Your boss approaches you and says "Yeah...we have some acquisitions we'd really like to make.  Can we give you $150,000 in a lumpsum payment again?  You'll still make a total of $200,000 as promised, but we need to play with the accounting part of it."  Once again, its a no brainer, so you do it.  For accounting, it looks like you made $125,000 this year.
  • Year 5 - You've done great work for the company.  You're excited about your $200,000 payout this year and the prospect of being able to stay with or leave the company next year for another one.  Word is, several other companies out there are willing to pay you even more than this one!  But the company is still in money trouble, and want to make some more acquisitions.  People not familiar with the past look at the list of salaries and see yours at $325,000.  Now they are firing mad.  How can you make nearly twice what you are "worth" at $200,000?  Man, you could get two of you for that price!  You are dumbfounded at the hate, because you are still going to make the same $200,000 you were always scheduled to make.  You are not making $325,000 this year, its old compensation that was pushed forward for accounting purposes.


Can you see the fundamental difference in what I just wrote and what you wrote?  In Suh's case, he is making $12M this year, and the books make it look like he is getting paid $22M.  He got paid the $10M difference, but it was money he was already contracted to make.  The team simply flipped it into a bonus and spread accounting of the money out...but not the real money.  This is also why its so easy to get someone like CJ or Stafford to do the same thing if we really wanted to free up some money.  Remember, players get paid in game checks.  So someone like CJ is a couple of months away from collecting money again.  So do you think he'd really turn it down if we walked up to him and said "hey, can I give you $5M right now, instead of giving it to you slowly over 17 weeks?"  No brainer for him.  The newest contracts (such as Jay Cutler's) don't even require permission to do it.  The team can execute the restructure without permission of the agent or the player.  I could see how we wouldn't want to kick the can further down the road, but there really isn't a dire need to rush a Suh deal.  He's making $12M this year, and his new deal would pay him roughly the same amount anyways...so what would the savings be?  His $10M dead money is there no matter what.
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Posted: 6/9/2014 2:43 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


Air,

We are trying to keep it simple here! LOL
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Posted: 6/9/2014 2:54 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 





---------------------------------------------
--- Air2theThrown wrote:

Well your both slightly incorrect on what transpired or how it transpired.

Let's look at Suhs history

$13.755M initially guaranteed (2010-12 base + 2010 roster bonus)
$24.545M more guaranteed in 2011
2010 Roster Bonus: $2.78 million
2011 Escalator: $1 million (from $405,000)
2011 Roster Bonus: $7.195 million
2011 Option Bonus: $17.35 million
2011 Suspension Adjustment: -$165,294
2012 Restructure Bonus: $9.71 million
2012-14 Workout Bonus: $125,000
NLTBE Incentives: $8 million
2013 Restructure: $11.52 million / 3 years
2013: Fined $100,000

Suh restructured in 2011, and 2013.

Each time he restructured he turned base salary to Garrenteed money that deferred moneys to the latter part of his contract.

That gaurrenteed money was paid to him up front each year but was allocated to future years.

---------------------------------------------

That's exactly what I said. I was not wrong at all.
The draft will tell a lot about who we are going to draft. - lionking299

I think we're going to draft guys that we can use, starters or backups depending on how fast they develop. - wiseacres
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Posted: 6/9/2014 3:52 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 



You are correct after I reread your statement I now realize you was saying basically the same thing.

---------------------------------------------
--- Landon wrote:




---------------------------------------------
--- Air2theThrown wrote:

Well your both slightly incorrect on what transpired or how it transpired.

Let's look at Suhs history

$13.755M initially guaranteed (2010-12 base + 2010 roster bonus)
$24.545M more guaranteed in 2011
2010 Roster Bonus: $2.78 million
2011 Escalator: $1 million (from $405,000)
2011 Roster Bonus: $7.195 million
2011 Option Bonus: $17.35 million
2011 Suspension Adjustment: -$165,294
2012 Restructure Bonus: $9.71 million
2012-14 Workout Bonus: $125,000
NLTBE Incentives: $8 million
2013 Restructure: $11.52 million / 3 years
2013: Fined $100,000

Suh restructured in 2011, and 2013.

Each time he restructured he turned base salary to Garrenteed money that deferred moneys to the latter part of his contract.

That gaurrenteed money was paid to him up front each year but was allocated to future years.

---------------------------------------------

That's exactly what I said. I was not wrong at all.

---------------------------------------------
"When I die I want the Detroit Lions to be my pallbearer's so they can let me down one last time." "I hope they sing the song Another One Bites the Dust for me."
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Posted: 6/9/2014 3:55 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


Sorry Wes I have a tendency to clutter all the nonsense with logic .... lol

Or at least what sounds like logic in my head......

I sometimes wonder if I'm worthy to be a Lions fan.
---------------------------------------------
--- wesleysh21 wrote:

Air,

We are trying to keep it simple here! LOL

---------------------------------------------
"When I die I want the Detroit Lions to be my pallbearer's so they can let me down one last time." "I hope they sing the song Another One Bites the Dust for me."
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Posted: 6/9/2014 6:40 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 



redwing777 wrote: According to this PFF article, the Lions are really overpaid much at all. 

https://www.profootballfocus.c...-detroit-lions/
Interesting.  I completely disagree with their findings but interesting.  Thanks for sharing.
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Posted: 6/9/2014 7:37 PM

Re: It's Suh's Fault 


If Suh is going for the money, he won't be playing for a good team.   His situation is very similar to Mario Williams and Buffalo is the kind of team he will be playing for.
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