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Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE

Posted: 10/21/2012 8:12 AM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 


Butler only scored 45 points!  what happened????

I thought they was a scoring machine; going to run up the scores on everybody for the sake of the Polls?

what happened?
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Posted: 10/21/2012 7:00 PM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 



JayhawkAlumni wrote: 

what happened?
butler beat coffeyville for the 22nd consecutive time.  

i can't believe you're actually going to hang your hat on "well, they didn't beat us by 70, so there!"  

that should be a sobering reality of where this season and team is at.
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  • bandrat
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Posted: 10/21/2012 7:32 PM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 


Coffeyville by point spread is the 2nd best team Butler has played this season. Only Blinn lost by less points to Butler. Coffeyville coaches took last years leftovers and a late start in recruiting date and have only lost to 3 top-ten ranked teams. For their first year in rebuilding mode they haven't done bad.
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Posted: 10/21/2012 7:58 PM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 


I think that bandrat is right. This team gave Butler the best game it had from our conference all year long.
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Posted: 10/21/2012 9:37 PM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 



68camaro wrote: I think that bandrat is right. This team gave Butler the best game it had from our conference all year long.
Butler is their rival and CV has multiple coaches with knowledge of Butler and experience coaching there - on both sides of the ball.  I hope they could play up for this game even if they lost.

The 7-3 win against Highland is highly alarming.  They got stomped by Hutch in much the way they did by Butler (except with more offense against Hutch).  They got by AFP by only 6 points.  FS took them to double-OT, but CV was lucky enough to win.  Those games are some red flags.  

They look to be the 3rd/4th team in the conference this year, but their traditional place in the last couple of decades is second.  If a few things didn't go their way so far they could easily be sitting 5th or 6th.  

Next year will show more of what this new staff has in place and what they are capable of, but I still don't see them overtaking Hutch as #2 in the near future.

Looking forward to their game next week against GC.  If it wasn't for Butler playing Hutch for the regular season conference title, I'd say it was the matchup of the week.

The playoffs have effectively begun, although this first round (next week) isn't elimination, it just determines who plays who in week 1 of the official playoffs.  

Winner of Buco/Hutch gets the loser of GC/CV.  Loser of Butler/Hutch gets winner of GC/CV.

My prediction is that Butler wins and gets CV in round one of the playoffs for a chance at 23 in a row.  Don't think CV has the defense to contain GC's Marshall nor the offense to keep up.
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  • bandrat
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Posted: 10/21/2012 11:09 PM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 


Butler beat:

Blinn by 18
Coffeyville by 32
AFP by 43
Ft. Scott by 46
Dodge by 60
Highland by 61
Garden by 71
Indy by 73

The fact remains that Coffeyville gave Butler it's toughest game to date in the conference and the Ravens are rebuilding and not even ranked nationally.  It is what it is.
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Posted: 10/22/2012 7:31 AM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 



bandrat wrote: Butler beat:

Blinn by 18
Coffeyville by 32
AFP by 43
Ft. Scott by 46
Dodge by 60
Highland by 61
Garden by 71
Indy by 73

The fact remains that Coffeyville gave Butler it's toughest game to date in the conference and the Ravens are rebuilding and not even ranked nationally.  It is what it is.
With all due respect, a score from a single game is hardly indicative of the body of work.  Irish pointed out the disturbing number of close calls against bad teams that CV survived, only to be blown out by every good team it played.  CV has a ways to go.  I haven't decided about this week's pick 'em, but I'm leaning toward GC over CV.  Should be a good game, though, regardless of outcome.

As for the 45 points, that could easily have been several TD's higher.  Butler had the ball inside the 5 yard line a few times when it didn't score, and it had a TD called back by a procedural penalty.  The fact is that Butler was moving the ball at will most of the night and simply flubbed some goal line opportunities.  CV should get appropriate credit for getting the job done in those situations, but don't delude yourself into believing that it would be the norm.  If Butler and CV play again, I think the margin of victory will be bigger. 

I would also note that Butler was noticeably less effective running the ball after Dreamius Smith was injured early in the game.  Our backup RBs are good, but not as dynamic as Smith.  Smith is, without question, the best RB in the conference.  He is a big play guy, and he breaks a lot of big-gainers (30 yard TD run on the opening drive, for example).  Would the score have been a little different if Smith had been in the game, as he was against all the other opponents that you are comparing CV to?  Probably.  The stats on Butler's website show that Smith had 2 runs for 51 yards for an average of 25.5 ypc (I thought he had more carries than that, but maybe not).  His backup avereaged only 3.6 ypc.  While Smith would not have averaged 25.5 for the whole game, he likely would have averaged 5-7 ypc, which could have made a huge difference, especially considering that Butler was a few goal line yards away from making this a 66-13 annihilation. 

Speaking of Smith, it looked like he had a pretty nasty hamstring pull.  Hopefully, it's not a tear.  I don't expect him to be back before our bowl game, but I am open to being pleasantly surprised.
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Posted: 10/22/2012 7:48 AM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 



bandrat wrote: the Ravens are rebuilding and not even ranked nationally.  It is what it is.
How many years does it take to go from a rebuilding process to - this is the status quo?  2005 was the last time they finished in the top 10, and they did that limping to a #9 ranking after a bowl loss from GA Mil.  

They have been 3/4 in the conference for quite some time.  It's been since about '06 that they were really a threat to Butler - the last time they finished 2nd in the conference.  

Saying that they've given Butler their best conference game this year isn't really saying anything... the Grizzlies haven't played Hutch yet.  So, presumably Hutch gives Butler a better game than CV did, so that puts the Ravens right in their spot, 3rd place, perhaps 4th if they lose to GC.  

There has not been progress yet.  It's too early into the new staff's career there to assess if there's been progress.  This year is all about changing mentality - especially with problem guys they've had there recently.  Recruiting and implementing their system will be put to the test in the next two years... can they climb back into their #2 role in the conference and take down Hutch?  They have to do that first before having any aspirations of climbing to the top of the hill.
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Posted: 10/22/2012 7:51 AM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 



Butler79 wrote:
Speaking of Smith, it looked like he had a pretty nasty hamstring pull.  Hopefully, it's not a tear.  I don't expect him to be back before our bowl game, but I am open to being pleasantly surprised.
Is there any update or word on this?  That injury concerns me greatly as Smith was not just one of the best backs in the conference, but perhaps in the nation this year.  I feel like it noticeably hurt our rushing attack for the remainder of the game - and wasn't Thomas still nursing that sore heel that kept him out for a couple games, so even he wasn't 100%?
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Posted: 10/22/2012 8:11 AM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 



Irish2009 wrote:
Butler79 wrote:
Speaking of Smith, it looked like he had a pretty nasty hamstring pull.  Hopefully, it's not a tear.  I don't expect him to be back before our bowl game, but I am open to being pleasantly surprised.
Is there any update or word on this?  That injury concerns me greatly as Smith was not just one of the best backs in the conference, but perhaps in the nation this year.  I feel like it noticeably hurt our rushing attack for the remainder of the game - and wasn't Thomas still nursing that sore heel that kept him out for a couple games, so even he wasn't 100%?
I haven't heard anything about Smith.  I was happy to see him lose the icepack and spend some time on the bike in the second half.  Still, I have had a moderate leg muscle pull before, and it took about a month before I could run on it full speed.  Of course, I didn't have a training staff to help me, either.

All the same, I don't think we will see Smith this week, and I would guess he's 50/50 at best for the playoffs.  I would think he would be available for our bowl game in 6 weeks, but those hamstring pulls can be a PITA.  We shouldn't need Smith to win out in the conference, so I hope the coaching staff leaves him out to ensure a full recovery.  We will probably need him more for the bowl game. 

I didn't even know that Thomas had a heel injury.  He ran hard Saturday night, but he just wasn't as explosive as Smith -- not even close.  I thought Suggs played well, though.  In fact, I think he has played well all season (albeit in mop up duty for the most part).  And he's our punter, which makes plays like the 50 yd fake punt possible.  Not bad for an in-state kid.
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  • bandrat
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Posted: 10/22/2012 8:49 AM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 


Nothing changes the fact that lowly Coffeyville gave Butler it's closest conference game to date.
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Posted: 10/22/2012 9:07 AM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 



bandrat wrote: Nothing changes the fact that lowly Coffeyville gave Butler it's closest conference game to date.

I don't think anyone was challenging the fact that this was Butler's smallest margin of victory over a conference team.  However, your implication that the smallest margin of victory makes Coffeyville the second best team that Butler has played requires some qualification and explanation -- which is provided above.

I mean, if you're solely relying on one-time matchup scores, Garden City fares as the second worst team that Butler has played, even though Garden City destroyed most of Butler's other opponents.  Going stricly by single game score comparisons, GC should have lost to a slew of other teams (like Dodge City, Highland, FS, etc.).  It didn't.  In fact, GC beat the crap out of two of those teams (beating Highland by only 11). 
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  • bandrat
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Posted: 10/22/2012 9:20 AM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 


The bottom line is that Butler needed a blowout to be assured of playing for a national championship. They didn't get it. Their last chance is to stomp Hutch and that won't be easy.
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Posted: 10/22/2012 9:30 AM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 



bandrat wrote: The bottom line is that Butler needed a blowout to be assured of playing for a national championship. They didn't get it. Their last chance is to stomp Hutch and that won't be easy.
Last chance?  No, they have 3 more games, all left against opponents with winning records.  Hutch, then the two rounds of the playoffs.  

I though your argument was about Coffeyville improving - now it's about Butler's chances getting into the NC game?  Win out - that's all they can do.
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Posted: 10/22/2012 12:15 PM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 



bandrat wrote: The bottom line is that Butler needed a blowout to be assured of playing for a national championship. They didn't get it. Their last chance is to stomp Hutch and that won't be easy.

Um, so Coffeyville's standard for being blown out is MORE than 32 points?

Yikes! 

I'll be the first to admit that I wanted the score to be more lopsided to make a statement to the pollsters.  But, frankly, either the pollsters watched EMCC play NWCC and were unimpressed enough to change their votes -- or they weren't.  I don't think beating CV by another 10 or 20 points was going to be the difference.  EMCC's poor defense, on the other hand, might be. 

Irish is right, too.  We still have 3 more games against relatively good opponents.  Hopefully, we'll win big in all of those games and convince a couple of pollsters to move their votes around.  Even if not, our computer rankings should continue to climb.  So, we'll see.
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Posted: 10/22/2012 12:48 PM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 


Irish:
It was said in a earlier post that losing your(Butlers) running back impacted the outcome. Well Coffeyvilles' game against Highland was played with 4 key players not playing. Would that impact that outcome if 4 players were gone? 

Butler beat Coffeyville I am sure we can all agree on that.
Butler has a better quality players than Coffeyville. I am sure we can agree on that.
Butler did not beat them by as much as they/you would have liked. I am sure we can agree on that to.

To bring up lost opportunities in a game is silly. How about the first play of the game??? If the receiver could have put a little more on that pass that was a TD. How about if the Ville would have stayed at home on that punt play that would have took away a TD. You were punting on 4th down you know.

Explain this....If Butler was not desperate to get the score up why did Butler leave Cosh in the game the whole night. The season is almost over. Surely he wasnt out there to work on something. Coffeyville even pulled our QB for the last couple possessions.
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Posted: 10/22/2012 1:38 PM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 



68camaro wrote: Irish:
It was said in a earlier post that losing your(Butlers) running back impacted the outcome. Well Coffeyvilles' game against Highland was played with 4 key players not playing. Would that impact that outcome if 4 players were gone? 

Butler beat Coffeyville I am sure we can all agree on that.
Butler has a better quality players than Coffeyville. I am sure we can agree on that.
Butler did not beat them by as much as they/you would have liked. I am sure we can agree on that to.

To bring up lost opportunities in a game is silly. How about the first play of the game??? If the receiver could have put a little more on that pass that was a TD. How about if the Ville would have stayed at home on that punt play that would have took away a TD. You were punting on 4th down you know.

Explain this....If Butler was not desperate to get the score up why did Butler leave Cosh in the game the whole night. The season is almost over. Surely he wasnt out there to work on something. Coffeyville even pulled our QB for the last couple possessions.
I think your comments are too narrow. 

I don't think anyone meant to say that if only a play or two had gone differently, the score would have been different.  That's obvious for any game.  What I meant (and I assume anyone else who made similar comments meant), was that Butler was moving the ball at will, especially when Smith was playing.  That Smith was injured and Butler missed out on some scoring opportunities happened, but likely wouldn't happen in a rematch.  I just meant that the flow of the game indicated to me that Butler could (and probably would if they meet again) beaten CV considerably worse.

The Highland game is a good comparison.  I don't think anyone on these boards thinks that CV is only 4 points better than Highland.  If those teams played 10 times, CV would probably win all 10, and by more points than 4.

The same is true of this game, IMO.  If Butler and CV played 10 more times, I think Butler would win every time, and I think most of the scores would be more lopsided than this one.  Why do I think that?   Because Butler was dangerously close to scoring several more times and was moving the ball at will.  CV, OTOH, never really even threatened to score after it's two early scoring drives.  Hell, even those drives were aided multiple times by drive-saving penalties.  Without even considering the propriety of the penalties, how many games do you think you're going to get multiple drive-saving penalties to assist in scoring drives against Butler?  Probably not many.
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  • bandrat
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Posted: 10/22/2012 10:15 PM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 


I love this stuff, don't you?  I always hate it when the season is over and we have to wait 8 or 9 months for the next season to get here.  I like you guys up at Butler.  I think you have a first class operation up there and I always look forward to playing you .  For a long time we dominated the conference and won a few national championships in the process.  But, things change and good fortune is a fleeting commodity.  I do think with our current ex-Butler coaching staff, and the solid backing of our college administration,  we will improve in the next couple of years and once again be a contender.  

I wish I could come and see your game with Hutch.  It ought to be a good one.
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Posted: 10/23/2012 6:05 AM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 



bandrat wrote: I love this stuff, don't you?  I always hate it when the season is over and we have to wait 8 or 9 months for the next season to get here.  I like you guys up at Butler.  I think you have a first class operation up there and I always look forward to playing you .  For a long time we dominated the conference and won a few national championships in the process.  But, things change and good fortune is a fleeting commodity.  I do think with our current ex-Butler coaching staff, and the solid backing of our college administration,  we will improve in the next couple of years and once again be a contender.  

I wish I could come and see your game with Hutch.  It ought to be a good one.
^ This.  X 1000.
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Posted: 10/23/2012 8:33 AM

Re: BUTLER vs COFFEYVILLE 


I am confused by something. If Coffeyville is so bad and barely beat Highland, Ft Scott and AFP what does this say about Butler if they had a harder time with Coffeyville than any other Jayhawk team season to date? Is Butler not that good? Is Coffeyville better than they get credit for? I do not know the answer but I am sure someone will set me straight.
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