Is the 2013 class our second year of scholarship reductions, or just first? I can't remember how many we signed last year. I sure hope we only have one more year of this crap.

We could start reducing them last year if we chose to do so. I'm not sure how many scholarship athletes we had on the roster at year end, so I can't say what was done for sure. You technically could do it all in 1 year versus 3, but you'd strip your team to the point of it being useless.

Could someone answer the OP's question? What exactly is the reduction required, and over how many years does it last? Where are we after only 17 in 2013? Thanks.

2013 is the second year. We have one more to go in 2014.
We lost 5 per year -can only sign 20 max instead of 25.

But we also can have no more than 80 total on scholarship in any of those years rather than the usual 85. So we have to stay under the 80 limit as well as the 20 per year. We have met those restrictions.

The NCAA is counting Roy Smith, a track scholarship guy who played FB last fall as a scholarship player against the total. So even though we signed only 17, he makes it 18. And we are still at 81 total before next fall, so we will lose one before school starts in August. That's when the count has to be at 80. Probably thru medical hardship or early graduation.

AND if only the seniors for next year graduate, we will have only 10 scholarships to give in order to stay under the 80 for next year (2014), the last year of the sanctions. Unless players graduate early or have medical hardships etc.

Thanks ccheel. I wasn't sure how many we signed last year. I was thinking that we had a lot of commitments before the sanctions were officially announced, and wasn't sure if we possibly had more than 20 commits and honored all of those. But it sounds like you are saying that we didn't sign more than 20 last year (2012). Or, I guess it would have been possible to have signed more than 20 in 2012, but have some of them not qualify. Regardless, it sounds like you are confident that the 2014 class will be the last one with restrictions.

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--- ccheel1 wrote:

2013 is the second year. We have one more to go in 2014.
We lost 5 per year -can only sign 20 max instead of 25.

But we also can have no more than 80 total on scholarship in any of those years rather than the usual 85. So we have to stay under the 80 limit as well as the 20 per year. We have met those restrictions.

The NCAA is counting Roy Smith, a track scholarship guy who played FB last fall as a scholarship player against the total. So even though we signed only 17, he makes it 18. And we are still at 81 total before next fall, so we will lose one before school starts in August. That's when the count has to be at 80. Probably thru medical hardship or early graduation.

AND if only the seniors for next year graduate, we will have only 10 scholarships to give in order to stay under the 80 for next year (2014), the last year of the sanctions. Unless players graduate early or have medical hardships etc.

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We did send James Summers and Monte Taylor to Hargrave when they didn't qualify, so I think we did sign 22. We made sure to have 2012 count as the first year. And since those 2 still didn't qualify, they weren't included in the count.

wait, i thought the sanctions didn't come down until this summer, which is why we were ineligible for the bowl this year, whereas we went to the "Withers Bowl" at the end of the 2011 season. I know Butch was already gone and 2011 was the most tumultuous season, but I thought that we were under the cloud that whole year and the sanctions finally got announced later.

If that is correct, then I think the scholarship reduction years are 2013, 2014, 2015.

But, I may be losing my mind . . .now I am remembering something getting announced before NSD in 2012 . . .so maybe that was the first year of reductions and cc is right. Frankly, it was such a mess that i've tried to put most of it out of my mind.

ah . . so 2012 did count. ignore my previous post, which took me so long to type that i had missed this follow up.

ok. good. just one more year.

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--- ccheel1 wrote:

We did send James Summers and Monte Taylor to Hargrave when they didn't qualify, so I think we did sign 22. We made sure to have 2012 count as the first year. And since those 2 still didn't qualify, they weren't included in the count.

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Important distintion: we can sign as many as we want. However, the NCAA sanctions apply to the # who enroll. IOW, we can't have more than 20 early counters for each class over the 2012, 2013, and 2014 classes. As another poster mentioned, Roy Davis is being counted as a scholarship last year for the year and as a new counter for the class of 2012 which means we actually played at 81 and 21, respectively. The NCAA, being the logical and streamlined organization that it is, has been "gracious" enough to allow us to make up for it this year and play at 79 and restrict the number of new counters to 19. Korrin Wiggins' switch to Clemson will help manage this. In fact, as it sits now, even if all 17 kids quality, we obviously will be below 19 new counters and I think we will only need attrition of one to get down to 79.

So what you're saying is that you can't sign more than 25 in a normal year right? If that's so, then how does a team like Texas A&M sign 30+ or Alabama sign 26? Is this because they will stay under the allowed 85 scholarship roster? Thanks in advance.

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--- ccheel1 wrote:

2013 is the second year. We have one more to go in 2014.
We lost 5 per year -can only sign 20 max instead of 25.

But we also can have no more than 80 total on scholarship in any of those years rather than the usual 85. So we have to stay under the 80 limit as well as the 20 per year. We have met those restrictions.

The NCAA is counting Roy Smith, a track scholarship guy who played FB last fall as a scholarship player against the total. So even though we signed only 17, he makes it 18. And we are still at 81 total before next fall, so we will lose one before school starts in August. That's when the count has to be at 80. Probably thru medical hardship or early graduation.

AND if only the seniors for next year graduate, we will have only 10 scholarships to give in order to stay under the 80 for next year (2014), the last year of the sanctions. Unless players graduate early or have medical hardships etc.

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--- Heelboi wrote:

So what you're saying is that you can't sign more than 25 in a normal year right? If that's so, then how does a team like Texas A&M sign 30+ or Alabama sign 26? Is this because they will stay under the allowed 85 scholarship roster? Thanks in advance.

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As was noted above, it's not the number you sign, it's the number of new signees enrolled for the Fall. aTm can sign 33, but as long as only 25 enroll on scholarship in the Fall and as long as they only have 85 total on scholarship in the fall, they're okay.

When teams oversign, they usually have a plan for the overage. Some don't qualify and go to prep or JUCO. Some "greyshirt" or enroll after the first semester and count on the NEXT years total.

Just have to meet the 25/85 counters at the BEGINNING of the school year in Aug/Sept. Some schools have a lot of attrition for many reasons. Grades, PT, early graduations, medical hardships, NFL, coaching changes, etc.

I don't know how the numbers will work out, maybe there will be some attrition besides the seniors leaving, but if we can only take 10 next year, seems like that could put us in a serious bind for the following years. I realize that we can take 25 after the sanctions are lifted, but if we can only take 10 next year, AND we happen to have 20 or so guys depart through graduation or other attrition the following year, that could leave us pretty thin and inexperienced. As I said, I know we could take 25 to offset a large number leaving, but we would be trading experienced players for 25 freshmen.

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--- ccheel1 wrote:
AND if only the seniors for next year graduate, we will have only 10 scholarships to give in order to stay under the 80 for next year (2014), the last year of the sanctions. Unless players graduate early or have medical hardships etc.

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In addition to the ten, we also have 2 spots we can give to early enrollees. I guess while recruiting you need to make sure you target enough people with potential to come early... i have no idea how they implement that targetting though.

But i think in general it will probably make the team a tiny bit younger than usual at some point out for a few yrs. Of the 17 incoming for 2013, some will redshirt, some get hurt, flunk out, transfer, then they'll also end up being a small graduating senior class, and the junior class below will probably a few smaller than usual since we only brought in 20 last yr.

So you become a tiny bit less senior-laden (unless you don't redshirt anyone) and of course you aren't able to award your walk-ons with scholarships cause you just don't have any to give out.

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--- Heel4evr wrote:

I don't know how the numbers will work out, maybe there will be some attrition besides the seniors leaving, but if we can only take 10 next year, seems like that could put us in a serious bind for the following years. I realize that we can take 25 after the sanctions are lifted, but if we can only take 10 next year, AND we happen to have 20 or so guys depart through graduation or other attrition the following year, that could leave us pretty thin and inexperienced. As I said, I know we could take 25 to offset a large number leaving, but we would be trading experienced players for 25 freshmen.

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I think you also have to take into account the walk-ons who earned scholarships. Those ships are given on a yearly basis so we could have a few guys who dont receive them this year. Not sure how many guys were awarded ships this past year but we could be looking at 2 or 3 extra scholarships if they dont get them this year.

The numbers will make your head explode if you put much effort into trying to understand how we will get down to 20/80 18 MONTHS prior to it really mattering. My point was that UNC can SIGN as many as they want right now--the ACC has no rule against oversigning. There is no NCAA limitation on that in terms of our sanctions either. The only limit is that only 20 new counters can enroll each season and we can't exceed 80 total scholarships at any time.

So the number appears to project as 12 TODAY (10 seniors running out of eligibility and if all in this class qualify, we'll be at 78 total for the 2013 season)--and that is looking at it today and assuming no attrition between now and August 2014. And anyone who has followed this knows that there is NO WAY that that 12 number will not increase in the next 18 months. And in fact, it actually could increase PAST 20 if we stay 1t 17/78 and assign two early enrollees to the class of 2013. We could have a class of 22 in this next class...

Relax and have a homebrew. If you knew the details of other schools' scholarship situations, they would all be very similar to ours. No one has 25 seniors running out of eligibility this season. It doesn't work that way.

No think it is 12,13 &14, should have sit out the bowl season 2011 since we didnt show anyways and gotten blown out by Mizz and did not really have a coach.

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--- MythofSisyphus wrote:

wait, i thought the sanctions didn't come down until this summer, which is why we were ineligible for the bowl this year, whereas we went to the "Withers Bowl" at the end of the 2011 season. I know Butch was already gone and 2011 was the most tumultuous season, but I thought that we were under the cloud that whole year and the sanctions finally got announced later.

If that is correct, then I think the scholarship reduction years are 2013, 2014, 2015.

But, I may be losing my mind . . .now I am remembering something getting announced before NSD in 2012 . . .so maybe that was the first year of reductions and cc is right. Frankly, it was such a mess that i've tried to put most of it out of my mind.

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