The ACC literally 5 yrs behind the curve in media distro. Maybe that will not matter and the league will trudge thru this period. I, for one, am convinced that so long as there is an ACC, UNC will cling to it -- no matter the impact on the institution.

And back to the original topic -- GT is effectively off the market for the next year or two as Bobinski spins up to life at a BCS school.

Something that needs to be added as well is that not every state university is trying to be a research school. You'll often see big dollars following big science and engineering programs. Ole Miss, for instance, isn't a big science and engineering school. Mississippi State has that focus, and you'll find that they have more research dollars than Ole Miss. Ole Miss is more focused on liberal arts and professional programs. You don't need hundreds of millions of dollars in federal research grants to turn out great lawyers, accountants, teachers, doctors, pharmacists, and liberal arts scholars.

Research dollars are great, especially if you're a research-oriented university, but they're not the entire story in higher ed. Other programs that don't attract blockbusting federal research grants can be vitally important to both a university and the state it serves.

FWIW, I think GT is looking. I think they need the money and at least something that helps even the playing field with UGA.

Do you need this explained to you again? lol


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--- BuffaloLion wrote:

Is it in the best interests of your science and medical researchers that bring in 40 times the amount of money your football and basketball team does?

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--- BankerHeel wrote:

BL, iirc, rock is a Texas A&M fan.

The University of NC is not going to go to the Big 10. It is not in the interests of our student athletes.

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Those are important points, Reb.

But I really think GT is done looking for awhile -- at least until the new AD experiences anemic gate from, say, Pitt and Cuse, and then is overrun by UGa fans to end the home slate.

Besides, part of the thinking in going with Bobinski is he'll help the hoops program get back in the tourney and otherwise be relevant again, which in theory relives pressure on football. It never works that way, of course. But they'll try it.

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--- NaturalStateReb wrote:

Something that needs to be added as well is that not every state university is trying to be a research school. You'll often see big dollars following big science and engineering programs. Ole Miss, for instance, isn't a big science and engineering school. Mississippi State has that focus, and you'll find that they have more research dollars than Ole Miss. Ole Miss is more focused on liberal arts and professional programs. You don't need hundreds of millions of dollars in federal research grants to turn out great lawyers, accountants, teachers, doctors, pharmacists, and liberal arts scholars.

Research dollars are great, especially if you're a research-oriented university, but they're not the entire story in higher ed. Other programs that don't attract blockbusting federal research grants can be vitally important to both a university and the state it serves.

FWIW, I think GT is looking. I think they need the money and at least something that helps even the playing field with UGA.

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Hmmmm. Don't you think News Corp would have figured that into the equation when they agreed to pay the Big Ten a guaranteed annually increasing rights fee until 2032?

If you had to place your bet as to who had a better handle on the future of media distribution, would you place your bets with the second largest media group in the World, News Corp? Or with a sports Conference?

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--- unc4life wrote:



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--- expatriateheel wrote:

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Thank you Shadow. We all want the ACC to succeed but if it doesn't we have no moral duty to save a rustbelt conference which offers little new opportunities to Carolina in academics/research and would destroy athletics. The rustbelt conference has bet their future on a technology which will be obsolete within 5 years. They bet the ranch on money derived from extortion for a very inferior product and new technology will kill it. Idiots. We aren't buying it.

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Excellent point. The Big 10 is chasing cable subscriptions and the SEC is actually trying to improve their league. In the end my money is on the SEC in terms of generating long term value for its members.

Your comment about a soon to be obsolete technology with regard to monopolistic cable companies is spot on. Internet TV is just in its infancy and will eventually replace TV as we know it. And all of it will be a la carte instead of the tier setups cable companies have now.

For instance two years ago I just wanted to add ESPN-U but had to buy the Time Warner Cable tier that included the Big 10 network; the Pac-12 network; and Fox Sports to get that one station. That setup will not exist on Internet TV. The Big 10 is betting the ranch and making the revenue projections based on the fact that setup is going to be around forever.

I for one think the ACC is not going anywhere. But if the worst does happen; UNC is going to the SEC.

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First I was a Texas A&M fan. Now I'm MHVer. I guess I must be pretty popular!!

Well, in fairness to whoever they are, no, I'm not an A&M fan although I do LOVE the state of Texas. And I'm not MHVer. But whoever they are, they sound like they might be pretty cool guys!!! : ^ )

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--- WesternStormer wrote:

Its sort of difficult to hide one's writing or posting style, isn't it? LOL

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--- UNCsince53 wrote:

MHVer from the wVU bioard, right? I saw where you quit" again...some things don't change do they?

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--- BuffaloLion wrote:

Virginia is going to the Big 10.

North Carolina is being pulled in two separate directions. Its fans want the SEC, whereas the administration, the faculty, and the accountants want the Big 10.

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--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

GT is trying to get out, Clemson and FSU are leaving, but they don't really want to go to their new home in the Big-12, and they are not going to the SEC.

The school with the most options, UNC, is keeping the cards ( and contacts ) close to the vest, same with the #2 school with options, UVa.

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This is a myth, the part about Bowden being scared of the SEC. Bowden did want the SEC, we were already playing LSU, Auburn, Florida and (then independent) South Carolina virtually every year. And of course Miami back when they were something to fear. Our faculty senate wanted the ACC, and the SEC wanted us to make financial concessions that would harm us vis a vis the rest of the league. The SEC never even offered us an invitation back then. Once the decision to join the ACC was made, the ever diplomatic Bowden said in his folksy way, paraphrashing "I'd rather be a live chicken in the ACC than a dead one in the SEC." Simple-minded SEC fans have taken that statement literally ever since, despite knowing better that he was just showing off his Southern manners. And the SEC folks keep reiterating this myth over and over again.

Truth is FSU has been asking into the SEC time and time again since the '60's. It's you guys that are scared of us apparently. And since the SEC has NEVER offered FSU a bid, it's hard to see how we are running from an opportunity that has never really existed. I concede we probably could have gotten a bid in 1991 when this all went down, but only if we made scheduling and financial concessions that would have really hurt our program. We weren't willing to be extorted to get into the SEC, and the SEC saw that and held the bid.

The other error you make is that we would bring no viewers to the footprint. We are the second most popular school in the country's third most populous state, and have a national cache to boot. A UNC or UVa probably does add more to the SEC because those are flagship schools in large states where there is no SEC presence, but FSU would still be a tremendous asset to the SEC even with Florida already in the league. My guess is CBS and ESPN have already informed Mike Slive of FSU's value, and it is somewhere way north of nothin'.

In the end though, I don't think the ACC is losing any more teams. UNC is the lynchpin, and if they don't leave, the league remains viable and nobody does. FSU would only go to the Big XII if the ACC was truly decimated.

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--- TennesseeVolSEC wrote:

Ha! Whats funny is wishing someone the best is viewed as talking trash??? Better read my post again. You don't like well wishes?

Yes, we are now one of the bottom feeders but at least we are in the SEC. How much you spending to try and better the football team? You think we are afraid of competition? I think Bobby Bowden was afraid of competition and look what shape FSU is in now.

Clemson and FSU are good teams but you can keep them. Would like to have them competition wise but they will bring no viewers to the footprint. FSU had their chance but that ship has sailed away.

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You might want to read this article that was written about what all transpired during that time:

jacksonville.com/tu-online/sto...ol_6160687.html

While FSU didn't have a formal invite, they had an informal one that would've been made formal had FSU wanted it. The SEC only withdrew their informal invitation when it was obvious that the ACC was voting FSU in and that FSU had made up their mind. And you'll have to show me where the SEC asked FSU to make scheduling and financial concessions, because I've never read that in any article I've read. In the end FSU had to choose between the SEC & ACC, and chose the ACC.

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--- NorthStateNole wrote:

This is a myth, the part about Bowden being scared of the SEC. Bowden did want the SEC, we were already playing LSU, Auburn, Florida and (then independent) South Carolina virtually every year. And of course Miami back when they were something to fear. Our faculty senate wanted the ACC, and the SEC wanted us to make financial concessions that would harm us vis a vis the rest of the league. The SEC never even offered us an invitation back then. Once the decision to join the ACC was made, the ever diplomatic Bowden said in his folksy way, paraphrashing "I'd rather be a live chicken in the ACC than a dead one in the SEC." Simple-minded SEC fans have taken that statement literally ever since, despite knowing better that he was just showing off his Southern manners. And the SEC folks keep reiterating this myth over and over again.

Truth is FSU has been asking into the SEC time and time again since the '60's. It's you guys that are scared of us apparently. And since the SEC has NEVER offered FSU a bid, it's hard to see how we are running from an opportunity that has never really existed. I concede we probably could have gotten a bid in 1991 when this all went down, but only if we made scheduling and financial concessions that would have really hurt our program. We weren't willing to be extorted to get into the SEC, and the SEC saw that and held the bid.

The other error you make is that we would bring no viewers to the footprint. We are the second most popular school in the country's third most populous state, and have a national cache to boot. A UNC or UVa probably does add more to the SEC because those are flagship schools in large states where there is no SEC presence, but FSU would still be a tremendous asset to the SEC even with Florida already in the league. My guess is CBS and ESPN have already informed Mike Slive of FSU's value, and it is somewhere way north of nothin'.

In the end though, I don't think the ACC is losing any more teams. UNC is the lynchpin, and if they don't leave, the league remains viable and nobody does. FSU would only go to the Big XII if the ACC was truly decimated.

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--- TennesseeVolSEC wrote:

Ha! Whats funny is wishing someone the best is viewed as talking trash??? Better read my post again. You don't like well wishes?

Yes, we are now one of the bottom feeders but at least we are in the SEC. How much you spending to try and better the football team? You think we are afraid of competition? I think Bobby Bowden was afraid of competition and look what shape FSU is in now.

Clemson and FSU are good teams but you can keep them. Would like to have them competition wise but they will bring no viewers to the footprint. FSU had their chance but that ship has sailed away.

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You answered your own freaking question, regarding the "informal" invite. Why do you think it never became formal? Because the SEC wanted FSU to be a second class citizen and FSU signaled that was unacceptable. Certainly a school already playing Auburn, LSU, Florida and South Carolina would not be scared to add Vandy, Kentucky and Ole Miss to that.

The article even says: "Whether real or merely perceived, the vibes generated from the SEC's presentation didn't sit well with some at FSU". That was because FSU was being told it would have no say in its divisional placement or scheduling, and would have to take partial shares for a number of years. Those are bad vibes I'd say.

And Bowden had to be convinced to go to the ACC. He was being a team player in "affirming" the move. If it were up to him, we'd be in the SEC.

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--- bamatab wrote:

You might want to read this article that was written about what all transpired during that time:

jacksonville.com/tu-online/sto...ol_6160687.html

While FSU didn't have a formal invite, they had an informal one that would've been made formal had FSU wanted it. The SEC only withdrew their informal invitation when it was obvious that the ACC was voting FSU in and that FSU had made up their mind. And you'll have to show me where the SEC asked FSU to make scheduling and financial concessions, because I've never read that in any article I've read. In the end FSU had to choose between the SEC & ACC, and chose the ACC.

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--- NorthStateNole wrote:

This is a myth, the part about Bowden being scared of the SEC. Bowden did want the SEC, we were already playing LSU, Auburn, Florida and (then independent) South Carolina virtually every year. And of course Miami back when they were something to fear. Our faculty senate wanted the ACC, and the SEC wanted us to make financial concessions that would harm us vis a vis the rest of the league. The SEC never even offered us an invitation back then. Once the decision to join the ACC was made, the ever diplomatic Bowden said in his folksy way, paraphrashing "I'd rather be a live chicken in the ACC than a dead one in the SEC." Simple-minded SEC fans have taken that statement literally ever since, despite knowing better that he was just showing off his Southern manners. And the SEC folks keep reiterating this myth over and over again.

Truth is FSU has been asking into the SEC time and time again since the '60's. It's you guys that are scared of us apparently. And since the SEC has NEVER offered FSU a bid, it's hard to see how we are running from an opportunity that has never really existed. I concede we probably could have gotten a bid in 1991 when this all went down, but only if we made scheduling and financial concessions that would have really hurt our program. We weren't willing to be extorted to get into the SEC, and the SEC saw that and held the bid.

The other error you make is that we would bring no viewers to the footprint. We are the second most popular school in the country's third most populous state, and have a national cache to boot. A UNC or UVa probably does add more to the SEC because those are flagship schools in large states where there is no SEC presence, but FSU would still be a tremendous asset to the SEC even with Florida already in the league. My guess is CBS and ESPN have already informed Mike Slive of FSU's value, and it is somewhere way north of nothin'.

In the end though, I don't think the ACC is losing any more teams. UNC is the lynchpin, and if they don't leave, the league remains viable and nobody does. FSU would only go to the Big XII if the ACC was truly decimated.

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--- TennesseeVolSEC wrote:

Ha! Whats funny is wishing someone the best is viewed as talking trash??? Better read my post again. You don't like well wishes?

Yes, we are now one of the bottom feeders but at least we are in the SEC. How much you spending to try and better the football team? You think we are afraid of competition? I think Bobby Bowden was afraid of competition and look what shape FSU is in now.

Clemson and FSU are good teams but you can keep them. Would like to have them competition wise but they will bring no viewers to the footprint. FSU had their chance but that ship has sailed away.

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--- NorthStateNole wrote:

This is a myth, the part about Bowden being scared of the SEC. Bowden did want the SEC, we were already playing LSU, Auburn, Florida and (then independent) South Carolina virtually every year. And of course Miami back when they were something to fear. Our faculty senate wanted the ACC, and the SEC wanted us to make financial concessions that would harm us vis a vis the rest of the league. The SEC never even offered us an invitation back then. Once the decision to join the ACC was made, the ever diplomatic Bowden said in his folksy way, paraphrashing "I'd rather be a live chicken in the ACC than a dead one in the SEC." Simple-minded SEC fans have taken that statement literally ever since, despite knowing better that he was just showing off his Southern manners. And the SEC folks keep reiterating this myth over and over again.

Truth is FSU has been asking into the SEC time and time again since the '60's. It's you guys that are scared of us apparently. And since the SEC has NEVER offered FSU a bid, it's hard to see how we are running from an opportunity that has never really existed. I concede we probably could have gotten a bid in 1991 when this all went down, but only if we made scheduling and financial concessions that would have really hurt our program. We weren't willing to be extorted to get into the SEC, and the SEC saw that and held the bid.

The other error you make is that we would bring no viewers to the footprint. We are the second most popular school in the country's third most populous state, and have a national cache to boot. A UNC or UVa probably does add more to the SEC because those are flagship schools in large states where there is no SEC presence, but FSU would still be a tremendous asset to the SEC even with Florida already in the league. My guess is CBS and ESPN have already informed Mike Slive of FSU's value, and it is somewhere way north of nothin'.

In the end though, I don't think the ACC is losing any more teams. UNC is the lynchpin, and if they don't leave, the league remains viable and nobody does. FSU would only go to the Big XII if the ACC was truly decimated.

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--- TennesseeVolSEC wrote:

Ha! Whats funny is wishing someone the best is viewed as talking trash??? Better read my post again. You don't like well wishes?

Yes, we are now one of the bottom feeders but at least we are in the SEC. How much you spending to try and better the football team? You think we are afraid of competition? I think Bobby Bowden was afraid of competition and look what shape FSU is in now.

Clemson and FSU are good teams but you can keep them. Would like to have them competition wise but they will bring no viewers to the footprint. FSU had their chance but that ship has sailed away.

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I believe NorthStateNole is correct that the ACC will not lose any more teams...

to be able to tell which way the folks in South Building are leaning you only need to look at that first vote on expansion just before Miami, VT, and BC joined up...

UNC voted for no expansion at all, but our partners saw it different so we tried to do our part...

now, having just botched one attempt to upgrade football, and dragged our name through the ncaa mud in the process, you can be sure noone in UNC's Admin is chomping at the bit to chase the almighty buck...

the CIC offers next to nothing we won't do on our own, anyway, so joining another athletic conference isn't likely to happen unless the ACC goes under...

with the answer being one that the PTB have consistently tried to communicate for such a long time, you wonder why the trolls even bother to post this stuff...

and those PTB could care less (but not much), what anyone in B1G or SEC country is doing or talking about...

if they decide in South Building that the ACC is where we belong, it ain't changin' until we no longer have a choice...

it's just that simple...

You were not being called an A&M fan. I was pointing out that rock is an A&M fan because you were referring to him as a UNC fan.
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--- BuffaloLion wrote:

First I was a Texas A&M fan. Now I'm MHVer. I guess I must be pretty popular!!

Well, in fairness to whoever they Tare, no, I'm not an A&M fan although I do LOVE the state of Texas. And I'm not MHVer. But whoever they are, they sound like they might be pretty cool guys!!! : ^ )

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--- WesternStormer wrote:

Its sort of difficult to hide one's writing or posting style, isn't it? LOL

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--- UNCsince53 wrote:

MHVer from the wVU bioard, right? I saw where you quit" again...some things don't change do they?

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--- BuffaloLioPn wrote:

Virginia is going to the Big 10.

North Carolina is being pulled in two separate directions. Its fans want the SEC, whereas the administration, the faculty, and the accountants want the Big 10.

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--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

GT is trying to get out, Clemson and FSU are leaving, but they don't really want to go to their new home in the Big-12, and they are not going to the SEC.

The school with the most options, UNC, is keeping the cards ( and contacts ) close to the vest, same with the #2 school with options, UVa.

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So you're saying that FSU didn't want to be in the Eastern division with UF & UGA? Because that is where they would've ended up since Arkansas was the other team that was joining. And again, you'll have to show me something that even hints that FSU would've had to take partial share, because neither USCe or Arkansas had to take partial shares when they joined.

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--- NorthStateNole wrote:

You answered your own freaking question, regarding the "informal" invite. Why do you think it never became formal? Because the SEC wanted FSU to be a second class citizen and FSU signaled that was unacceptable. Certainly a school already playing Auburn, LSU, Florida and South Carolina would not be scared to add Vandy, Kentucky and Ole Miss to that.

The article even says: "Whether real or merely perceived, the vibes generated from the SEC's presentation didn't sit well with some at FSU". That was because FSU was being told it would have no say in its divisional placement or scheduling, and would have to take partial shares for a number of years. Those are bad vibes I'd say.

And Bowden had to be convinced to go to the ACC. He was being a team player in "affirming" the move. If it were up to him, we'd be in the SEC.

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--- bamatab wrote:

You might want to read this article that was written about what all transpired during that time:

jacksonville.com/tu-online/sto...ol_6160687.html

While FSU didn't have a formal invite, they had an informal one that would've been made formal had FSU wanted it. The SEC only withdrew their informal invitation when it was obvious that the ACC was voting FSU in and that FSU had made up their mind. And you'll have to show me where the SEC asked FSU to make scheduling and financial concessions, because I've never read that in any article I've read. In the end FSU had to choose between the SEC & ACC, and chose the ACC.

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--- NorthStateNole wrote:

This is a myth, the part about Bowden being scared of the SEC. Bowden did want the SEC, we were already playing LSU, Auburn, Florida and (then independent) South Carolina virtually every year. And of course Miami back when they were something to fear. Our faculty senate wanted the ACC, and the SEC wanted us to make financial concessions that would harm us vis a vis the rest of the league. The SEC never even offered us an invitation back then. Once the decision to join the ACC was made, the ever diplomatic Bowden said in his folksy way, paraphrashing "I'd rather be a live chicken in the ACC than a dead one in the SEC." Simple-minded SEC fans have taken that statement literally ever since, despite knowing better that he was just showing off his Southern manners. And the SEC folks keep reiterating this myth over and over again.

Truth is FSU has been asking into the SEC time and time again since the '60's. It's you guys that are scared of us apparently. And since the SEC has NEVER offered FSU a bid, it's hard to see how we are running from an opportunity that has never really existed. I concede we probably could have gotten a bid in 1991 when this all went down, but only if we made scheduling and financial concessions that would have really hurt our program. We weren't willing to be extorted to get into the SEC, and the SEC saw that and held the bid.

The other error you make is that we would bring no viewers to the footprint. We are the second most popular school in the country's third most populous state, and have a national cache to boot. A UNC or UVa probably does add more to the SEC because those are flagship schools in large states where there is no SEC presence, but FSU would still be a tremendous asset to the SEC even with Florida already in the league. My guess is CBS and ESPN have already informed Mike Slive of FSU's value, and it is somewhere way north of nothin'.

In the end though, I don't think the ACC is losing any more teams. UNC is the lynchpin, and if they don't leave, the league remains viable and nobody does. FSU would only go to the Big XII if the ACC was truly decimated.

---------------------------------------------
--- TennesseeVolSEC wrote:

Ha! Whats funny is wishing someone the best is viewed as talking trash??? Better read my post again. You don't like well wishes?

Yes, we are now one of the bottom feeders but at least we are in the SEC. How much you spending to try and better the football team? You think we are afraid of competition? I think Bobby Bowden was afraid of competition and look what shape FSU is in now.

Clemson and FSU are good teams but you can keep them. Would like to have them competition wise but they will bring no viewers to the footprint. FSU had their chance but that ship has sailed away.

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FSU was going to be placed in the Western division. Do you have a link they were going to be placed in the Eastern division, or do you have a link that USC and Arky received full shares initially?

I did a quick google search and found articles mentioning that FSU did receive an invitation and turned it down, that FSU did not receive an invitation, that FSU had a soft invite but the SEC withdrew it out of spite when it got wind of FSU talking with the ACC. I even found an article that said Bowden wanted the ACC, and Alabama's president said we were never invited nor did the SEC want us to begin with (which sort of works against both of our arguments... I've linked that one below).

articles.baltimoresun.com/1990...-acc-conference

Suffice it to say, as is often the case when negotiations break down, there are two sides to the story, and in this case, it seems there are many. I don't think links to articles can clear things up because the stories I have found conflict with one another, including as to Bowden's preferences as well as whether FSU was ever really invited (I mean, according to Bama's president at the time, we were never even wanted in the first place).

But it's not like 1990 was the only occassion FSU expressed interest in joining the SEC. We were trying to get in for many years. I don't think you will find any unassailable version of what went down, but the bottom line is I am convinced that FSU was not running from anybody, many factors were involved in the decision to join the ACC.


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--- bamatab wrote:

So you're saying that FSU didn't want to be in the Eastern division with UF & UGA? Because that is where they would've ended up since Arkansas was the other team that was joining. And again, you'll have to show me something that even hints that FSU would've had to take partial share, because neither USCe or Arkansas had to take partial shares when they joined.

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--- NorthStateNole wrote:

You answered your own freaking question, regarding the "informal" invite. Why do you think it never became formal? Because the SEC wanted FSU to be a second class citizen and FSU signaled that was unacceptable. Certainly a school already playing Auburn, LSU, Florida and South Carolina would not be scared to add Vandy, Kentucky and Ole Miss to that.

The article even says: "Whether real or merely perceived, the vibes generated from the SEC's presentation didn't sit well with some at FSU". That was because FSU was being told it would have no say in its divisional placement or scheduling, and would have to take partial shares for a number of years. Those are bad vibes I'd say.

And Bowden had to be convinced to go to the ACC. He was being a team player in "affirming" the move. If it were up to him, we'd be in the SEC.

---------------------------------------------
--- bamatab wrote:

You might want to read this article that was written about what all transpired during that time:

jacksonville.com/tu-online/sto...ol_6160687.html

While FSU didn't have a formal invite, they had an informal one that would've been made formal had FSU wanted it. The SEC only withdrew their informal invitation when it was obvious that the ACC was voting FSU in and that FSU had made up their mind. And you'll have to show me where the SEC asked FSU to make scheduling and financial concessions, because I've never read that in any article I've read. In the end FSU had to choose between the SEC & ACC, and chose the ACC.

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--- NorthStateNole wrote:

This is a myth, the part about Bowden being scared of the SEC. Bowden did want the SEC, we were already playing LSU, Auburn, Florida and (then independent) South Carolina virtually every year. And of course Miami back when they were something to fear. Our faculty senate wanted the ACC, and the SEC wanted us to make financial concessions that would harm us vis a vis the rest of the league. The SEC never even offered us an invitation back then. Once the decision to join the ACC was made, the ever diplomatic Bowden said in his folksy way, paraphrashing "I'd rather be a live chicken in the ACC than a dead one in the SEC." Simple-minded SEC fans have taken that statement literally ever since, despite knowing better that he was just showing off his Southern manners. And the SEC folks keep reiterating this myth over and over again.

Truth is FSU has been asking into the SEC time and time again since the '60's. It's you guys that are scared of us apparently. And since the SEC has NEVER offered FSU a bid, it's hard to see how we are running from an opportunity that has never really existed. I concede we probably could have gotten a bid in 1991 when this all went down, but only if we made scheduling and financial concessions that would have really hurt our program. We weren't willing to be extorted to get into the SEC, and the SEC saw that and held the bid.

The other error you make is that we would bring no viewers to the footprint. We are the second most popular school in the country's third most populous state, and have a national cache to boot. A UNC or UVa probably does add more to the SEC because those are flagship schools in large states where there is no SEC presence, but FSU would still be a tremendous asset to the SEC even with Florida already in the league. My guess is CBS and ESPN have already informed Mike Slive of FSU's value, and it is somewhere way north of nothin'.

In the end though, I don't think the ACC is losing any more teams. UNC is the lynchpin, and if they don't leave, the league remains viable and nobody does. FSU would only go to the Big XII if the ACC was truly decimated.

---------------------------------------------
--- TennesseeVolSEC wrote:

Ha! Whats funny is wishing someone the best is viewed as talking trash??? Better read my post again. You don't like well wishes?

Yes, we are now one of the bottom feeders but at least we are in the SEC. How much you spending to try and better the football team? You think we are afraid of competition? I think Bobby Bowden was afraid of competition and look what shape FSU is in now.

Clemson and FSU are good teams but you can keep them. Would like to have them competition wise but they will bring no viewers to the footprint. FSU had their chance but that ship has sailed away.

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absolutely NJ blows away all those SEC destinations.

Rutgers is about an hour from NYC, Philly, and Atlantic City, where you can take in a broadway show, visit a multitude of museums casinos, and restaurants, or just chill out and relax at a number of high quality spas.

You can take in a Rutgers game, then go to NYC to Peter Lugars, Sparks, or Smith and Wollenskys steakhouse, or maybe goto to Newarks ironbound section and enjoy delicious Portugese food, or stay in New Brunswick itself, and dine at a number of fine restaurants.

What advantage does Gainesville have, the local Cracker Barrel and Dennys? Alabama has great ribs but not much else. The rest are nice college towns, but ultimately BORING, compared the pizzaz of NYC.

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--- unc4life wrote:

Yes those road trips to places like Iowa, Minnesota, Chicago, New Jersey, College Park and Illinois will blow away road trips to Gainsville Fl., Knoxville Tn., Athens Ga, Oxford Miss, and Alabama.

Nice try.

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--- Rutgersal wrote:

If you're looking at this issue, solely from the football perspective, quality of female talent at away venues, and ease of travelling (driveability), its hard to want anything but the SEC. I get all that from some UNCs football fans perspective.

But if UNC wants to associate with like-minded academic, mostly non-cheating institutions, than the B1G is a much better fit, and changes can be minimized:

- You would still play GT and Md in conference and could play Duke and State OOC
- You could play Rutgers, PSU and a number of B1G schools for your in conference games
- Things could be organized so that you have two driveable and two not so driveable road games; this would be a change from your current situation where nearly every road game is driveable. If y'all were to join the SEC, you would probably have a few SEC games which were non driveable anyways.

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I see you are still smoking the rock.

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--- Rutgersal wrote:

absolutely NJ blows away all those SEC destinations.

Rutgers is about an hour from NYC, Philly, and Atlantic City, where you can take in a broadway show, visit a multitude of museums casinos, and restaurants, or just chill out and relax at a number of high quality spas.

You can take in a Rutgers game, then go to NYC to Peter Lugars, Sparks, or Smith and Wollenskys steakhouse, or maybe goto to Newarks ironbound section and enjoy delicious Portugese food, or stay in New Brunswick itself, and dine at a number of fine restaurants.

What advantage does Gainesville have, the local Cracker Barrel and Dennys? Alabama has great ribs but not much else. The rest are nice college towns, but ultimately BORING, compared the pizzaz of NYC.

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--- unc4life wrote:

Yes those road trips to places like Iowa, Minnesota, Chicago, New Jersey, College Park and Illinois will blow away road trips to Gainsville Fl., Knoxville Tn., Athens Ga, Oxford Miss, and Alabama.

Nice try.

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--- Rutgersal wrote:

If you're looking at this issue, solely from the football perspective, quality of female talent at away venues, and ease of travelling (driveability), its hard to want anything but the SEC. I get all that from some UNCs football fans perspective.

But if UNC wants to associate with like-minded academic, mostly non-cheating institutions, than the B1G is a much better fit, and changes can be minimized:

- You would still play GT and Md in conference and could play Duke and State OOC
- You could play Rutgers, PSU and a number of B1G schools for your in conference games
- Things could be organized so that you have two driveable and two not so driveable road games; this would be a change from your current situation where nearly every road game is driveable. If y'all were to join the SEC, you would probably have a few SEC games which were non driveable anyways.

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hilarious

most people, when they make college football destinations, go for the fall Saturdays that can ONLY be created on those days, & only in those particular destinations. Can New York create a fall Saturday in Bryant-Denny, how bout Death Valley, the Swamp? Not just no but hell no.

If you want a NorthEast vacation then go in the spring/summer, it's always there, all year round....

Personally I take a SEC Saturday over a Broadway play all day, any day....



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--- Rutgersal wrote:

absolutely NJ blows away all those SEC destinations.

Rutgers is about an hour from NYC, Philly, and Atlantic City, where you can take in a broadway show, visit a multitude of museums casinos, and restaurants, or just chill out and relax at a number of high quality spas.

You can take in a Rutgers game, then go to NYC to Peter Lugars, Sparks, or Smith and Wollenskys steakhouse, or maybe goto to Newarks ironbound section and enjoy delicious Portugese food, or stay in New Brunswick itself, and dine at a number of fine restaurants.

What advantage does Gainesville have, the local Cracker Barrel and Dennys? Alabama has great ribs but not much else. The rest are nice college towns, but ultimately BORING, compared the pizzaz of NYC.

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--- unc4life wrote:

Yes those road trips to places like Iowa, Minnesota, Chicago, New Jersey, College Park and Illinois will blow away road trips to Gainsville Fl., Knoxville Tn., Athens Ga, Oxford Miss, and Alabama.

Nice try.

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--- Rutgersal wrote:

If you're looking at this issue, solely from the football perspective, quality of female talent at away venues, and ease of travelling (driveability), its hard to want anything but the SEC. I get all that from some UNCs football fans perspective.

But if UNC wants to associate with like-minded academic, mostly non-cheating institutions, than the B1G is a much better fit, and changes can be minimized:

- You would still play GT and Md in conference and could play Duke and State OOC
- You could play Rutgers, PSU and a number of B1G schools for your in conference games
- Things could be organized so that you have two driveable and two not so driveable road games; this would be a change from your current situation where nearly every road game is driveable. If y'all were to join the SEC, you would probably have a few SEC games which were non driveable anyways.

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Adding FSU to West? Huh? That seems crazy considering they were adding Arkansas at same time. Do you have a link?

Also considering Mizzou and A&M were given full rights and revenue shares from the start, it seems very unlikely FSU be offered anything less. That was a big attraction for Mizzou since the B1G was only offering minor memberships to new schools. I was following the whole process as a Mizzou fan very closely and Slive and company made it pretty clear that this was the way the SEC has always done business.

And no exit fee for leaving either. Although once the SEC Network gets going in a couple years this may no longer be the case. I assume each school will need to sign over their tier 3 stuff for a number of years.

Anyway, they have little chance of being considered for the SEC today with the frenzy over cable network dollars. They just don't add that much since the SEC already has the biggest brand in the state. But things could change rapidly. Who knows what conferences will be trying to maximize 10 years from now.

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--- NorthStateNole wrote:

FSU was going to be placed in the Western division. Do you have a link they were going to be placed in the Eastern division, or do you have a link that USC and Arky received full shares initially?

I did a quick google search and found articles mentioning that FSU did receive an invitation and turned it down, that FSU did not receive an invitation, that FSU had a soft invite but the SEC withdrew it out of spite when it got wind of FSU talking with the ACC. I even found an article that said Bowden wanted the ACC, and Alabama's president said we were never invited nor did the SEC want us to begin with (which sort of works against both of our arguments... I've linked that one below).

articles.baltimoresun.com/1990...-acc-conference

Suffice it to say, as is often the case when negotiations break down, there are two sides to the story, and in this case, it seems there are many. I don't think links to articles can clear things up because the stories I have found conflict with one another, including as to Bowden's preferences as well as whether FSU was ever really invited (I mean, according to Bama's president at the time, we were never even wanted in the first place).

But it's not like 1990 was the only occassion FSU expressed interest in joining the SEC. We were trying to get in for many years. I don't think you will find any unassailable version of what went down, but the bottom line is I am convinced that FSU was not running from anybody, many factors were involved in the decision to join the ACC.


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--- bamatab wrote:

So you're saying that FSU didn't want to be in the Eastern division with UF & UGA? Because that is where they would've ended up since Arkansas was the other team that was joining. And again, you'll have to show me something that even hints that FSU would've had to take partial share, because neither USCe or Arkansas had to take partial shares when they joined.

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--- NorthStateNole wrote:

You answered your own freaking question, regarding the "informal" invite. Why do you think it never became formal? Because the SEC wanted FSU to be a second class citizen and FSU signaled that was unacceptable. Certainly a school already playing Auburn, LSU, Florida and South Carolina would not be scared to add Vandy, Kentucky and Ole Miss to that.

The article even says: "Whether real or merely perceived, the vibes generated from the SEC's presentation didn't sit well with some at FSU". That was because FSU was being told it would have no say in its divisional placement or scheduling, and would have to take partial shares for a number of years. Those are bad vibes I'd say.

This sounds appealing to my wife, but not to any travelling football fan I know.



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--- Rutgersal wrote:

absolutely NJ blows away all those SEC destinations.

Rutgers is about an hour from NYC, Philly, and Atlantic City, where you can take in a broadway show, visit a multitude of museums casinos, and restaurants, or just chill out and relax at a number of high quality spas.

You can take in a Rutgers game, then go to NYC to Peter Lugars, Sparks, or Smith and Wollenskys steakhouse, or maybe goto to Newarks ironbound section and enjoy delicious Portugese food, or stay in New Brunswick itself, and dine at a number of fine restaurants.

What advantage does Gainesville have, the local Cracker Barrel and Dennys? Alabama has great ribs but not much else. The rest are nice college towns, but ultimately BORING, compared the pizzaz of NYC.

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--- unc4life wrote:

Yes those road trips to places like Iowa, Minnesota, Chicago, New Jersey, College Park and Illinois will blow away road trips to Gainsville Fl., Knoxville Tn., Athens Ga, Oxford Miss, and Alabama.

Nice try.

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--- Rutgersal wrote:

If you're looking at this issue, solely from the football perspective, quality of female talent at away venues, and ease of travelling (driveability), its hard to want anything but the SEC. I get all that from some UNCs football fans perspective.

But if UNC wants to associate with like-minded academic, mostly non-cheating institutions, than the B1G is a much better fit, and changes can be minimized:

- You would still play GT and Md in conference and could play Duke and State OOC
- You could play Rutgers, PSU and a number of B1G schools for your in conference games
- Things could be organized so that you have two driveable and two not so driveable road games; this would be a change from your current situation where nearly every road game is driveable. If y'all were to join the SEC, you would probably have a few SEC games which were non driveable anyways.

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Most fans traveling to away games go for the football experience at the stadium and univiersity/town. They don't go to go sight seeing. Thus a school like Clemson has a great gameday experience even though it's in the middle of nowhere.

Have you been to the Grove in Oxford MS? Best overall football atmosphere/tailgaiting I've ever experienced.

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--- Rutgersal wrote:

absolutely NJ blows away all those SEC destinations.

Rutgers is about an hour from NYC, Philly, and Atlantic City, where you can take in a broadway show, visit a multitude of museums casinos, and restaurants, or just chill out and relax at a number of high quality spas.

You can take in a Rutgers game, then go to NYC to Peter Lugars, Sparks, or Smith and Wollenskys steakhouse, or maybe goto to Newarks ironbound section and enjoy delicious Portugese food, or stay in New Brunswick itself, and dine at a number of fine restaurants.

What advantage does Gainesville have, the local Cracker Barrel and Dennys? Alabama has great ribs but not much else. The rest are nice college towns, but ultimately BORING, compared the pizzaz of NYC.

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--- unc4life wrote:

Yes those road trips to places like Iowa, Minnesota, Chicago, New Jersey, College Park and Illinois will blow away road trips to Gainsville Fl., Knoxville Tn., Athens Ga, Oxford Miss, and Alabama.

Nice try.

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--- Rutgersal wrote:

If you're looking at this issue, solely from the football perspective, quality of female talent at away venues, and ease of travelling (driveability), its hard to want anything but the SEC. I get all that from some UNCs football fans perspective.

But if UNC wants to associate with like-minded academic, mostly non-cheating institutions, than the B1G is a much better fit, and changes can be minimized:

- You would still play GT and Md in conference and could play Duke and State OOC
- You could play Rutgers, PSU and a number of B1G schools for your in conference games
- Things could be organized so that you have two driveable and two not so driveable road games; this would be a change from your current situation where nearly every road game is driveable. If y'all were to join the SEC, you would probably have a few SEC games which were non driveable anyways.

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You cannot assume the divisions as they exist now were the template for the divisions which didn't exist in 1990. There was a lot of fighting over the alignment at that time, and the only way they could agree to a split was if every team got two permanent cross-over rivals (that went down to one after about a decade). FSU was told they would have no say of where they would be placed. It wasn't just one thing that pushed FSU to the ACC, but scheduling was a factor.

Of course we were never offered, and according to Alabama's president at the time, we weren't ever wanted in the first place. We didn't and couldn't run from an invitation we never received.

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--- medloh wrote:

Adding FSU to West? Huh? That seems crazy considering they were adding Arkansas at same time. Do you have a link?

Also considering Mizzou and A&M were given full rights and revenue shares from the start, it seems very unlikely FSU be offered anything less. That was a big attraction for Mizzou since the B1G was only offering minor memberships to new schools. I was following the whole process as a Mizzou fan very closely and Slive and company made it pretty clear that this was the way the SEC has always done business.

And no exit fee for leaving either. Although once the SEC Network gets going in a couple years this may no longer be the case. I assume each school will need to sign over their tier 3 stuff for a number of years.

Anyway, they have little chance of being considered for the SEC today with the frenzy over cable network dollars. They just don't add that much since the SEC already has the biggest brand in the state. But things could change rapidly. Who knows what conferences will be trying to maximize 10 years from now.

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--- NorthStateNole wrote:

FSU was going to be placed in the Western division. Do you have a link they were going to be placed in the Eastern division, or do you have a link that USC and Arky received full shares initially?

I did a quick google search and found articles mentioning that FSU did receive an invitation and turned it down, that FSU did not receive an invitation, that FSU had a soft invite but the SEC withdrew it out of spite when it got wind of FSU talking with the ACC. I even found an article that said Bowden wanted the ACC, and Alabama's president said we were never invited nor did the SEC want us to begin with (which sort of works against both of our arguments... I've linked that one below).

articles.baltimoresun.com/1990...-acc-conference

Suffice it to say, as is often the case when negotiations break down, there are two sides to the story, and in this case, it seems there are many. I don't think links to articles can clear things up because the stories I have found conflict with one another, including as to Bowden's preferences as well as whether FSU was ever really invited (I mean, according to Bama's president at the time, we were never even wanted in the first place).

But it's not like 1990 was the only occassion FSU expressed interest in joining the SEC. We were trying to get in for many years. I don't think you will find any unassailable version of what went down, but the bottom line is I am convinced that FSU was not running from anybody, many factors were involved in the decision to join the ACC.


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--- bamatab wrote:

So you're saying that FSU didn't want to be in the Eastern division with UF & UGA? Because that is where they would've ended up since Arkansas was the other team that was joining. And again, you'll have to show me something that even hints that FSU would've had to take partial share, because neither USCe or Arkansas had to take partial shares when they joined.

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--- NorthStateNole wrote:

You answered your own freaking question, regarding the "informal" invite. Why do you think it never became formal? Because the SEC wanted FSU to be a second class citizen and FSU signaled that was unacceptable. Certainly a school already playing Auburn, LSU, Florida and South Carolina would not be scared to add Vandy, Kentucky and Ole Miss to that.

The article even says: "Whether real or merely perceived, the vibes generated from the SEC's presentation didn't sit well with some at FSU". That was because FSU was being told it would have no say in its divisional placement or scheduling, and would have to take partial shares for a number of years. Those are bad vibes I'd say.

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Like it or Not, and I do not, what happens to NCSU & Va Tech have more to do with what happens to UNC & UVa than we want to admit. In SC or Ga Md not as much a factor because only one big state school in ACC. Fla who knows. Legislatures control, even if informally much more than we we know. And as the elected representatives of the citizens of these states, they should. The rulers of these state schools are too independent of the citizens already but that is a discussion for another day.

If the research revenue associated with the CIC is as significant as indicated, why did Notre Dame reject it out of hand? If you want to discuss like minded academic institutions, ND is a mid-western university of high regard that rejected a mid-western athletic conference for the ACC. Maybe, just maybe, it's really about athletics after all.

Most fans have to eat and sleep when they visit said universities and towns and the hotels/restaurants of NY and NJ are second to none.

Same for the football experiences at Penn State, Ohio State, Ann Arbor, and Rutgers. Rutgers has fewer people than the aforementioned, but we still have a great atmosphere.

I haven't been to the Grove, but I have been to FL more times than I can remember, so I think they're a pretty good representative of the best that the SEC offers. Now the Grove might have more female talent than most B1G schools, but for a lot of fans, that isn't as important a consideration.

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--- dlc83 wrote:

Most fans traveling to away games go for the football experience at the stadium and univiersity/town. They don't go to go sight seeing. Thus a school like Clemson has a great gameday experience even though it's in the middle of nowhere.

Have you been to the Grove in Oxford MS? Best overall football atmosphere/tailgaiting I've ever experienced.

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--- Rutgersal wrote:

absolutely NJ blows away all those SEC destinations.

Rutgers is about an hour from NYC, Philly, and Atlantic City, where you can take in a broadway show, visit a multitude of museums casinos, and restaurants, or just chill out and relax at a number of high quality spas.

You can take in a Rutgers game, then go to NYC to Peter Lugars, Sparks, or Smith and Wollenskys steakhouse, or maybe goto to Newarks ironbound section and enjoy delicious Portugese food, or stay in New Brunswick itself, and dine at a number of fine restaurants.

What advantage does Gainesville have, the local Cracker Barrel and Dennys? Alabama has great ribs but not much else. The rest are nice college towns, but ultimately BORING, compared the pizzaz of NYC.

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--- unc4life wrote:

Yes those road trips to places like Iowa, Minnesota, Chicago, New Jersey, College Park and Illinois will blow away road trips to Gainsville Fl., Knoxville Tn., Athens Ga, Oxford Miss, and Alabama.

Nice try.

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--- Rutgersal wrote:

If you're looking at this issue, solely from the football perspective, quality of female talent at away venues, and ease of travelling (driveability), its hard to want anything but the SEC. I get all that from some UNCs football fans perspective.

But if UNC wants to associate with like-minded academic, mostly non-cheating institutions, than the B1G is a much better fit, and changes can be minimized:

- You would still play GT and Md in conference and could play Duke and State OOC
- You could play Rutgers, PSU and a number of B1G schools for your in conference games
- Things could be organized so that you have two driveable and two not so driveable road games; this would be a change from your current situation where nearly every road game is driveable. If y'all were to join the SEC, you would probably have a few SEC games which were non driveable anyways.

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I'm no CIC expert but I believe it is not as attractive to ND because although they are a fine university, they don't get a lot of federal research dollars, or do much post graduate research compared to other schools. Their religious affiliation does not allow them to do several types of research projects like Stem Cell research.

But I agree it is mostly about athletics and TV dollars.

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--- joeheel wrote:

If the research revenue associated with the CIC is as significant as indicated, why did Notre Dame reject it out of hand? If you want to discuss like minded academic institutions, ND is a mid-western university of high regard that rejected a mid-western athletic conference for the ACC. Maybe, just maybe, it's really about athletics after all.

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