Jay Smiths buddy, Lloyd Kramer disputes minutes of meeting. Academics did not discuss concerns ....and also upset that Governor Martin didn't talk with him. Ya know, there's something going on with Smith and Kramer...they are obliviously trying to shift blame for lack of action away from themselves to somewhere else. Honestly, no one is blaming them not not taking action....there is no true liability on their part. What gives.. What are Smith and Kramer hiding ?



Blah blah blah..I'm paraphrasing the article below by kandy.
Paper says Martin misrepresents what happened, UNC history chairman says..

As chairman of UNC-Chapel Hill’s Department of History, Lloyd Kramer knows the importance of creating an official record. At Friday’s Faculty Council meeting, he sought for that record to include his assertion that he was never warned about lecture classes that didn’t meet and suspicious independent studies within the Department of African and Afro-American Studies.

Blah....

He said athletics officials and academic support staff knew about the academic irregularities but continued to help athletes enroll in the classes because the Faculty Committee on Athletics in 2002 and 2006 told them not to worry about how a professor taught a class.
Blah blah blah....

Warning disputed

Kramer was on the committee during those times, and he said he remembers independent studies being discussed, but not as a problem or concern.

“I think this misrepresents what happened,” Kramer said of Martin’s report.

He and others at the meeting also criticized Martin for not contacting Kramer and other faculty on the committee to find out what they recalled. Martin has admitted he based his finding on interviews with four officials who have ties to the athletics department, plus committee minutes that show only independent studies were discussed. He absolved the athletics department and academic support program of wrongdoing as a result.

Debate continues. Blah blah blah

The debate over who said what and when about the academic fraud is the latest wrinkle in a case that has now hit its 17th month. Martin’s report, done with the assistance of the Baker Tilly management consulting firm, found more than 200 no-show classes over a 14-year period in which the only assignment was a term paper that was given a good grade without it likely being read. Many independent studies lacked an instructor as well, and several hundred grade changes lacked proper authorization.

Martin and UNC officials blame the fraud on long-time department chairman Julius Nyang’oro, who was forced into retirement in July, and former department manager Deborah Crowder, who retired in 2009. But other evidence shows academic support staff knew the classes weren’t challenging, and used them to keep athletes eligible to play sports.

Enrollment records show many classes were heavily populated with athletes, including football and men’s basketball players.

NCAA only watching...this gripe kandy.

The academic fraud appears to be one of the worst cases to hit an American university (can you cite that for me kandy), and it has prompted numerous university reforms. The NCAA has not investigated, and its president has said only that officials there are monitoring the case for possible sanctions. UNC-CH Athletics Director Bubba Cunningham said he has not heard anything from the NCAA since the Martin report’s release.

Kramer asked Faculty Council Chairman Jan Boxill to enter his dispute with the report into the record. Boxill suggested to Kramer that he and the others on the athletics committee, who also said they recall no such warning, may just not remember what happened. She has called the Martin report a “thorough investigation” and has urged the university to move forward.

Blah blah blah

But after the meeting, Boxill, a former academic support counselor, agreed that Martin should have interviewed the committee members before issuing a finding that accuses them of dropping the ball.

She said she would work with Kramer and others to create a document that reflects that and other concerns for the council to take up at a later meeting.

Kane knows he is one day closer to being out of a job.....

(with apologies to Robert Earl Keen)

The witch hunt goes on forever and the sniping never ends...

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--- kirksdad66 wrote:

Kane knows he is one day closer to being out of a job.....

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"What a day, glorious day that will be..."

Another effort to try to recover from looking so stupid. Another effort that did not work.

My question is "so what?" After all this are we down to what was said at meetings in 2002 and 2006? If so, then I say "case closed." Candy, if this is all you got, you got nothing.

What a hack.

It's turned into a "he said, she said'. That's progress. No proof.
Just decade old memories. Which vary widely. Vs minutes which document the report's findings. Jan Boxill has the right idea. Let's move forward.

Looks like ole Jay is getting his Daddy to fight a fight he picked but could not win.

Wish all students would boycott his classes.

Simple. Check the minutes of the subsequent committee meeting after the one in question. Did Kramer vote to approve the written minutes of the prior meeting?

I bet he did.

Bingo
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--- roanmtnman wrote:

Simple. Check the minutes of the subsequent committee meeting after the one in question. Did Kramer vote to approve the written minutes of the prior meeting?

I bet he did.

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Does anybody know the number of articles that the N&O has written on this subject? Or how many articles they average per week on this subject?

Also, where is the link to the minutes?

Maybe the professors should read the minutes of the meeting in order to prove their literacy and/or intellectual honesty. As for Kane and his employers, they aren't bound by any constraints beyond the limits of their agenda and the opportunity to sell more copies of their rag.

I think it's ironic that when this story first broke the Jay Smiths of the world were licking their chops thinking finally they could expose the fraud that was college athletics and end its influence on campus. As it turns out, all they succeeded in doing is exposing the academic fraud THEY created to accommodate minority students, students from rural areas, artists and dancers and yes, even a couple of athletes, that are admitted to UNC but who may not be as strong academically as a lot of their peers and for whom these courses are created so that they can graduate too.

Very ironic if you think about it.

Yes, ironic, and now they are getting very defensive about it.

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--- Heel1963 wrote:

I think it's ironic that when this story first broke the Jay Smiths of the world were licking their chops thinking finally they could expose the fraud that was college athletics and end its influence on campus. As it turns out, all they succeeded in doing is exposing the academic fraud THEY created to accommodate minority students, students from rural areas, artists and dancers and yes, even a couple of athletes, that are admitted to UNC but who may not be as strong academically as a lot of their peers and for whom these courses are created so that they can graduate too.

Very ironic if you think about it.

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What a tired story. Kane should just cut his losses and move on, but like the Wuffies he will refuse to accept reality.

This is so true...and I want to know where the article is addressing this very issue. I've been waiting for it ever since the "academic scandal" story first came out. I guess it wouldn't be "PC" thus no writer is going to touch it.

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--- Heel1963 wrote:

I think it's ironic that when this story first broke the Jay Smiths of the world were licking their chops thinking finally they could expose the fraud that was college athletics and end its influence on campus. As it turns out, all they succeeded in doing is exposing the academic fraud THEY created to accommodate minority students, students from rural areas, artists and dancers and yes, even a couple of athletes, that are admitted to UNC but who may not be as strong academically as a lot of their peers and for whom these courses are created so that they can graduate too.

Very ironic if you think about it.

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Wow, Kane is busting out the heavy artillery now. I expect the NCAA to arrive on campus any second now to shut the doors.

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--- unc722 wrote:

Yes, ironic, and now they are getting very defensive about it.

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--- Heel1963 wrote:

I think it's ironic that when this story first broke the Jay Smiths of the world were licking their chops thinking finally they could expose the fraud that was college athletics and end its influence on campus. As it turns out, all they succeeded in doing is exposing the academic fraud THEY created to accommodate minority students, students from rural areas, artists and dancers and yes, even a couple of athletes, that are admitted to UNC but who may not be as strong academically as a lot of their peers and for whom these courses are created so that they can graduate too.

Very ironic if you think about it.

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the main argument about massive academic fraud has been relegated to the dust bin of history, while they watched...

now, they have not only failed completely to acknowledge that they were wrong about that main point, they are trying to shift the focus to a collateral argument, about what topics a faculty committee addressed years ago, in a clumsy attempt to pretend they were somehow right all along...

as if no one will notice...

this is the hallmark of the truly stupid...

I must admit it has been entertaining to watch them match wits with Jim Martin, even if that was laughably one-sided...

Darren Heitner figured it out fairly quickly, by comparison...

Okay, so which is more likely to be correct- the contemporaneous minutes of a meeting, or the memory of a meeting ten years later? Methinks there's some academics trying to save face in this mess.

They're not stupid, they're arrogant. I find it odd that faculty complain about athletics. Coaches are under heavy scrutiny and fired at the drop of a hat. Tenured faculty, on the other hand, can say or do just about anything and get away with it. Reform. Reform now.

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--- MojaveHeel wrote:



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--- unc722 wrote:

Yes, ironic, and now they are getting very defensive about it.

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--- Heel1963 wrote:

I think it's ironic that when this story first broke the Jay Smiths of the world were licking their chops thinking finally they could expose the fraud that was college athletics and end its influence on campus. As it turns out, all they succeeded in doing is exposing the academic fraud THEY created to accommodate minority students, students from rural areas, artists and dancers and yes, even a couple of athletes, that are admitted to UNC but who may not be as strong academically as a lot of their peers and for whom these courses are created so that they can graduate too.

Very ironic if you think about it.

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the main argument about massive academic fraud has been relegated to the dust bin of history, while they watched...

now, they have not only failed completely to acknowledge that they were wrong about that main point, they are trying to shift the focus to a collateral argument, about what topics a faculty committee addressed years ago, in a clumsy attempt to pretend they were somehow right all along...

as if no one will notice...

this is the hallmark of the truly stupid...

I must admit it has been entertaining to watch them match wits with Jim Martin, even if that was laughably one-sided...

Darren Heitner figured it out fairly quickly, by comparison...

---------------------------------------------

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--- vancehall wrote:

They're not stupid, they're arrogant. I find it odd that faculty complain about athletics. Coaches are under heavy scrutiny and fired at the drop of a hat. Tenured faculty, on the other hand, can say or do just about anything and get away with it. Reform. Reform now.

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--- MojaveHeel wrote:



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--- unc722 wrote:

Yes, ironic, and now they are getting very defensive about it.

---------------------------------------------
--- Heel1963 wrote:

I think it's ironic that when this story first broke the Jay Smiths of the world were licking their chops thinking finally they could expose the fraud that was college athletics and end its influence on campus. As it turns out, all they succeeded in doing is exposing the academic fraud THEY created to accommodate minority students, students from rural areas, artists and dancers and yes, even a couple of athletes, that are admitted to UNC but who may not be as strong academically as a lot of their peers and for whom these courses are created so that they can graduate too.

Very ironic if you think about it.

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the main argument about massive academic fraud has been relegated to the dust bin of history, while they watched...

now, they have not only failed completely to acknowledge that they were wrong about that main point, they are trying to shift the focus to a collateral argument, about what topics a faculty committee addressed years ago, in a clumsy attempt to pretend they were somehow right all along...

as if no one will notice...

this is the hallmark of the truly stupid...

I must admit it has been entertaining to watch them match wits with Jim Martin, even if that was laughably one-sided...

Darren Heitner figured it out fairly quickly, by comparison...

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to be clear I am referring to the folks at the Raleigh Rag (not the academics), and while you may be calling them arrogant it is clear to me they are being stupid, engaging in a war of words they can never win in the end, rather than acknowledging that Martin's Report finally shot down their sensationalist agenda on that main point...

obfuscation, via collateral attacks, is a stupid approach that will always be a loser, unless your audience isn't very bright and is easily confused, something like ABCers...

I guess it could be they only really care about the ABCers but acknowledging that truth will require them to admit they are doing this for monetary reasons, rather than any pretense of defending their journalistic integrity...

Mojave, the funny thing is that Kane states in the article that the problems at UNC are "one of the most massive cases of academic fraud to hit a University in history."

One teacher, one AA, no proof that work was not done for grades? easy classes? Yes. One of the biggest academic scandals in history? I don;t think so. LOL. What a clown.
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--- MojaveHeel wrote:

the main argument about massive academic fraud has been relegated to the dust bin of history, while they watched...

now, they have not only failed completely to acknowledge that they were wrong about that main point, they are trying to shift the focus to a collateral argument, about what topics a faculty committee addressed years ago, in a clumsy attempt to pretend they were somehow right all along...

as if no one will notice...

this is the hallmark of the truly stupid...

I must admit it has been entertaining to watch them match wits with Jim Martin, even if that was laughably one-sided...

Darren Heitner figured it out fairly quickly, by comparison...

---------------------------------------------

What a protracted meltdown by Kane and these other people that keep launching salvos at Carolina. Their credibility is in the toilet and yet they keep going. What world are they living in? Let it go.

John Drescher can keep attempting to defend Kane's brand of reporting all he wants but it absolutely reeks of mudslinging and self-promotion. This isn't investigative journalism. Hell, there's not a drop of actual journalism or integrity to be found.


I would not be proud if I were these people.

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--- ShedhornRam wrote:

What a protracted meltdown by Kane and these other people that keep launching salvos at Carolina. Their credibility is in the toilet and yet they keep going. What world are they living in? Let it go.

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exactly, if your ego is so fragile that it will not let you admit that you were wrong then let it go, and stop talking about it...

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--- Heel1963 wrote:


Mojave, the funny thing is that Kane states in the article that the problems at UNC are "one of the most massive cases of academic fraud to hit a University in history."

One teacher, one AA, no proof that work was not done for grades? easy classes? Yes. One of the biggest academic scandals in history? I don;t think so. LOL. What a clown.
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--- MojaveHeel wrote:

the main argument about massive academic fraud has been relegated to the dust bin of history, while they watched...

now, they have not only failed completely to acknowledge that they were wrong about that main point, they are trying to shift the focus to a collateral argument, about what topics a faculty committee addressed years ago, in a clumsy attempt to pretend they were somehow right all along...

as if no one will notice...

this is the hallmark of the truly stupid...

I must admit it has been entertaining to watch them match wits with Jim Martin, even if that was laughably one-sided...

Darren Heitner figured it out fairly quickly, by comparison...

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good point 1963:

I can recall at least one cheating episode at the USAF Academy which dwarfed our numbers...

it does not make me think less of the Air Force Academy today, I only mention it because we are small timers by comparison, as you pointed out...

and then there was that online business at FSU, not so long ago, again compare the numbers and we look like pikers...

nor do I think less of FSU because of that, as it could have happened anywhere...

and there are many other examples...

all they have left is empty hyperbole...

they really must be getting desperate at the Raleigh Rag...

They're just trying to save face now.

Don't give up, kane! Don't ever give up!

You are #NCDeadLastSU fans' last hope even though your "credibility" is confined to the Wake county now.
Plus, your next job after N&OOPS (Technician) really depends on it.

Keep fighting, man! no matter how ridiculously you look now.