rather than bury this in the other thread I thought it needed its own...

paragraph 56(d) of that anti-trust filing repeats the oft-told lie that academic fraud was wide spread at UNC and the NCAA ignored it...

nevermind that the Martin report found nothing new...

and both UNC and the NCAA have stated publicly that UNC had already been sanctioned for what had previously been found...

someone in South Building needs to stand up and scream, now it's no longer lunatic ABCers and low brow journalists engaging in this @#$%, this was the office of the general counsel of the state of PA that felt comfortable putting this in a filing in open court...

enough is enough...

They(UNC)will not issue any kind of statement. The color yellow comes to mind. I'm sure they feel if they say anything it would only invite another investigation.

That whole lawsuit is the worst type of political grandstanding. All sound and fury, signifying nothing.

everything that went down, and continues to go down, with that entire situation is messed up beyond comprehension. PSU is lucky it wasn't wiped off the face of the earth.

---------------------------------------------
--- NaturalStateReb wrote:

That whole lawsuit is the worst type of political grandstanding. All sound and fury, signifying nothing.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
--- fbheel wrote:

They(UNC)will not issue any kind of statement. The color yellow comes to mind. I'm sure they feel if they say anything it would only invite another investigation.

---------------------------------------------

after the Martin report they shouldn't need to fear anything...

but the South Building attitude that they are somehow above responding to the lunatic behavior of the peanut gallery will only mean that even people who should be more responsible than to repeat clumsy lies will keep doing this kind of thing...

I see the PA governor and the PA office of general counsel differently than I did yesterday...

and make no mistake about it, there are those with an agenda, and many too lazy to check facts, who will now point out that the goverment of PA says UNC engages in academic fraud and the NCAA ignores it...

unless something is done to correct this lie it will not be the last time we hear it...

for once the NCAA might be our friend and point out the clumsy lie for us, but it will not be at the top of their list of priorities in this lawsuit...

---------------------------------------------
--- IslanderHeel wrote:

everything that went down, and continues to go down, with that entire situation is messed up beyond comprehension. PSU is lucky it wasn't wiped off the face of the earth.

---------------------------------------------


Really? Listen, as an alumnus and a father, I'm horrified at what Mr Sandusky did. I'm upset that the Grad Assistant who later told the AG how horrible it was did nothing to protect the kid on the night of the incident. I'm appalled that the involved administrators decided not to report the situation (regardless of how detailed their understanding of the situation was or was not at the time).

I hope Jerry rots in jail/hell. I'm still not sure what to do with McQueary, but I do not wish him well. The administrators are still to be tried. I'll delay my hopes and wishes for them until we find out what they knew and if this was a very bad judgement call or a blatent conspiracy. I hope the victims can somehow find peace (and that they are compensated monetarily - not that $ can ever compensate for what has been lost).

However, I hate these wide strokes of the brush that everything Blue and White most be destroyed, that it is somehow everyones fault and everyone must pay. "Wipe" Penn State "off the face of the earth"?

Com'on Man.

Its called defamation and slander and libel. If our leadership had any cajones, suits would have been filed months ago and this would have all stopped.

Instead, those mouthbreathers have succeeded in tarnishing our reputation for the near future.

Every Tar Heel should consider running for State office and immediately vote to strip NCState of its funding, allow the return of UNC's formerly top engineering school, and pursue whatever means necessary to restore the image of integrity that we all know and love.

Why cant we do like SEC schools and get lawyered up. The SEC schools would have lawyers all over the place before they let someone just come to their school and got through everything. I think the NCAA is scared of half the SEC schools because they fight everything.

I am quickly starting to hate that school and everything it stands for.

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--- BankerHeel wrote:

I am quickly starting to hate that school and everything it stands for.

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Because the Commonwealth is filing an antitrust lawsuit?, or just because?

--- BankerHeel wrote:

I am quickly starting to hate that school and everything it stands for.

---------------------------------------------

Right now, nationally, PSU stands for instutuitionized pedophelia which equals those defending a system where unarmed six years are just so much collateral damage in the struggle against governmental tyrrany.

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--- Nittany3G wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- BankerHeel wrote:

I am quickly starting to hate that school and everything it stands for.

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Because the Commonwealth is filing an antitrust lawsuit?, or just because?

---------------------------------------------

are you saying you thought we would approve of the fact that THE representative of the executive branch of government of the state of PA, through the office of general counsel of the state of PA, chose to repeat moronic lies about us?

because that is specifically what this thread is about?

Whether the UNC academic fraud was wide spread or involved just a few athletes is not my point. The lawsuit was filed by the Commonwealth of PA, not Penn State. If the governor overstated the scope of the UNC academic fraud, I'm fine with you guys calling him out on it.

I have worked directly with the PA governor in the past, not impressed at all. Thats another discussion.

All PA did was quote information from the media worthy of Pack Pride postings. No facts, it means nothing. There was no "wide spread academic fraud" involving anyone in our athletic dept., coaches or players.

---------------------------------------------
--- Nittany3G wrote:

Whether the UNC academic fraud was wide spread or involved just a few athletes is not my point. The lawsuit was filed by the Commonwealth of PA, not Penn State. If the governor overstated the scope of the UNC academic fraud, I'm fine with you guys calling him out on it.

---------------------------------------------

I have grown tired of reading the typical "why are we being punished when UNC has the worst academic/athletic scandal in the history of the modern world" mantra that comes out weekly on the PSU message board and now I find out your Governor is spreading lies about us to try to make his state look better. I have quit going to the PSU board so at least I fixed that issue for me.

---------------------------------------------
--- BankerHeel wrote:

I have grown tired of reading the typical "why are we being punished when UNC has the worst academic/athletic scandal in the history of the modern worked" mantra that comes out weekly on the PSU message board and now I find out your Governor is spreading lies about us to try to make his state look better. I have quit going to the PSU board so at least I fixed that issue for me.

---------------------------------------------
Here is what the PA Governor states in the complaint:

(d) A recent internal investigation at the University of North Carolina revealed massive academic fraud, including unauthorized grade chnages by forged signatures, and classes in which no instruction took place; approximately forty percent of the students enrolled in these classes were football nad basketball players. In August 2012, one month after sanctioning Penn State, the NCAA took the public position that none of the alleged conduct violated NCAA rules.

BTW - UNC is one of many schools listed. Other examples of NCAA action/inaction are USC, OSU, Montana, UVA, Baylor, etc.

BTW2 - Not my governor. I live in FL. This guy has his own agenda. He had his chance to investigate/prosecute Sandusky when he was the AG and did not. Was all too happy to see Paterno and company take the media hit instead of himself. Citizens caught on to him, now he is fighting for PSU? Politician making a political move.

there's no need to compare the Penn St scandal with our own. no one other than State fans will notice this.

wasn't my point either...

here's the point of this thread...

when our problems came to light UNC acknowledged, BEFORE the sanctions, that there had been some academic problems involving a tutor who was fired 2 years before any problems had come to light and some courses had required only a paper rather than classroom time, as independent study courses almost always do...

the problem with the latter is that UNC did not want to authorize too many independent study courses but the department chair did so anyway, without permission, leading to questions about their legitimacy...

there was also an allegation of grade changes...

none of this was ever on the scale that the dirtbag ABCers have claimed...

so these low-life ABCers (those in the know understand this to mean someone who admits he roots for "Anybody But Carolina", just in case you do not) and sleazy media hacks who cater to them in a desperate attempt to sell papers and get hits on their blogs, locally, began to float rumors of a massive scandal at UNC...

and they screamed for the NCAA to come back...

unbelievably, some clowns who work for national media, such as ESPN and CBS sports, picked up on the Raleigh Rag sports headlines and without checking things out, ran with the rumors, so UNC found itself at the center of controversy, again...

UNC denied these claims and went so far as to confirm that the student's papers had actually been submitted in those independent study classes but the papers couldn't be reviewed because they no longer exist since they are only retained for one year...

but there's more...

UNC stated that the academic problems were actually considered when the NCAA sanctions were levied and the NCAA CONFIRMED THAT THIS WAS TRUE and said they had no plans to return...

but that wasn't good enough...

because the folks in South Building (UNC Administration) felt UNC was above responding to these low-life accusers they refused to address their lies; but when the local paper (the rag that caters to NCSU in Raleigh) would not let go they selected former Governor of North Carolina Jim Martin, a PhD who knows something about education, to lead a nationally known firm and do an academic review in Chapel Hill...

perhaps the folks in South Building feel as they do because the building they work in is a national monument, as so many at UNC are because each was the first of its type...

UNC is alone among public institutions because it was the first public college or University in the United States, the only public college or university that was open and educating students while George Washington was the first President of the United States...

to this day, Chapel Hill is not a large factory school with 100,000+ students, accepting only about 4,000 new udergraduate students each year the total student body is less than 30,000, including roughly 9,000+ graduate students...

it has always been a "public ivy" and that academic reputation has always been held dear...

thus the folks in South Building may lead a somewhat insulated existence, believing that if someone lies about them, well, the people that matter will see through the lies so there is no need to lower themselves to respond...

then that report from Jim Martin and the Baker Tilly firm came back and confirmed that there was no wide spread or massive academic fraud at UNC, so I waited to read the retractions in the national media, which never came...

instead, the morons who work in the executive branch of government for the state of PA included those specific lies in paragraph 56(d) of their filing in federal court today, that "massive academic fraud had occurred at UNC and the NCAA had deliberately ignored it"...

they flat out lied that some huge fraud went utterly unpunished...

a clumsy lie they might have avoided with minimal research...

so if those fine folks who run PA get abducted by aliens tomorrow, it can't come too soon, although that is just as likely as I am to read a retraction and an apology...

got it now?

the NCAA will be able to embarass PA by proving that paragraph 56(d) is a blatant lie but may well be reflective of the quality of the work that went into the entire pleading...

not that that will help UNC...

I think we have a clear history at PSU of a head coach who looked the other way while his players and coaches committed acts more horrifying that anything we have ever done.

Outside of Happy Valley, Paterno will always be known, and rightfully so, as an enabler to a horrible pedophile.
His being stripped of victories and left with a tarnished legacy is a rightful punishment.

The fact that so many PSU fans still worship that hypocrite, makes it alright by me that PSU is going to hold that stench for long long time....

the irony is that this governor was the attorney general of the state and was informed about the shower incident that was reported to paterno yet chose to do nothing about it

Hate to disagree, but NCAA will do nothing of the sort. IMO, this was placed in the complaint as a 'strawman' argument, hoping that the NCAA will chase it, or at the least, get a media hit.

Unless it is being pled as a 'common plan or scheme' it is not relevant to the basis for the complaint (Rule 404 b evidence), which is, seeking to keep the fine money for children in the State of Pennsylvania, and not sent to Indianapolis.
So, it is very likely to be completely ignored by everyone except some disturbed people in Raleigh.


---------------------------------------------
--- MojaveHeel wrote:

wasn't my point either...

here's the point of this thread...

when our problems came to light UNC acknowledged, BEFORE the sanctions, that there had been some academic problems involving a tutor who was fired 2 years before any problems had come to light and some courses had required only a paper rather than classroom time, as independent study courses almost always do...

the problem with the latter is that UNC did not want to authorize too many independent study courses but the department chair did so anyway, without permission, leading to questions about their legitimacy...

there was also an allegation of grade changes...

none of this was ever on the scale that the dirtbag ABCers have claimed...

so these low-life ABCers (those in the know understand this to mean someone who admits he roots for "Anybody But Carolina", just in case you do not) and sleazy media hacks who cater to them in a desperate attempt to sell papers and get hits on their blogs, locally, began to float rumors of a massive scandal at UNC...

and they screamed for the NCAA to come back...

unbelievably, some clowns who work for national media, such as ESPN and CBS sports, picked up on the Raleigh Rag sports headlines and without checking things out, ran with the rumors, so UNC found itself at the center of controversy, again...

UNC denied these claims and went so far as to confirm that the student's papers had actually been submitted in those independent study classes but the papers couldn't be reviewed because they no longer exist since they are only retained for one year...

but there's more...

UNC stated that the academic problems were actually considered when the NCAA sanctions were levied and the NCAA CONFIRMED THAT THIS WAS TRUE and said they had no plans to return...

but that wasn't good enough...

because the folks in South Building (UNC Administration) felt UNC was above responding to these low-life accusers they refused to address their lies; but when the local paper (the rag that caters to NCSU in Raleigh) would not let go they selected former Governor of North Carolina Jim Martin, a PhD who knows something about education, to lead a nationally known firm and do an academic review in Chapel Hill...

perhaps the folks in South Building feel as they do because the building they work in is a national monument, as so many at UNC are because each was the first of its type...

UNC is alone among public institutions because it was the first public college or University in the United States, the only public college or university that was open and educating students while George Washington was the first President of the United States...

to this day, Chapel Hill is not a large factory school with 100,000+ students, accepting only about 4,000 new udergraduate students each year the total student body is less than 30,000, including roughly 9,000+ graduate students...

it has always been a "public ivy" and that academic reputation has always been held dear...

thus the folks in South Building may lead a somewhat insulated existence, believing that if someone lies about them, well, the people that matter will see through the lies so there is no need to lower themselves to respond...

then that report from Jim Martin and the Baker Tilly firm came back and confirmed that there was no wide spread or massive academic fraud at UNC, so I waited to read the retractions in the national media, which never came...

instead, the morons who work in the executive branch of government for the state of PA included those specific lies in paragraph 56(d) of their filing in federal court today, that "massive academic fraud had occurred at UNC and the NCAA had deliberately ignored it"...

they flat out lied that some huge fraud went utterly unpunished...

a clumsy lie they might have avoided with minimal research...

so if those fine folks who run PA get abducted by aliens tomorrow, it can't come too soon, although that is just as likely as I am to read a retraction and an apology...

got it now?

the NCAA will be able to embarass PA by proving that paragraph 56(d) is a blatant lie but may well be reflective of the quality of the work that went into the entire pleading...

not that that will help UNC...

---------------------------------------------

I don't want to overreact here, but I think it might be time for NC to declare war on Pennsylvania.

It would be alot easier to trade them to Canada for Prince Edward Island. At least we would get some nice fishing out of it.

---------------------------------------------
--- ProfessorSmith wrote:

I don't want to overreact here, but I think it might be time for NC to declare war on Pennsylvania.

---------------------------------------------

Vancouver... actually all of BC would be my preference.

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--- kirksdad66 wrote:

It would be alot easier to trade them to Canada for Prince Edward Island. At least we would get some nice fishing out of it.

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--- ProfessorSmith wrote:

I don't want to overreact here, but I think it might be time for NC to declare war on Pennsylvania.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
--- Nittany3G wrote:


Here is what the PA Governor states in the complaint:

(d) A recent internal investigation at the University of North Carolina revealed massive academic fraud, including unauthorized grade chnages by forged signatures, and classes in which no instruction took place; approximately forty percent of the students enrolled in these classes were football nad basketball players. In August 2012, one month after sanctioning Penn State, the NCAA took the public position that none of the alleged conduct violated NCAA rules.

BTW - UNC is one of many schools listed. Other examples of NCAA action/inaction are USC, OSU, Montana, UVA, Baylor, etc.

...
---------------------------------------------
Actually this is a sub paragraph of the following:

"... There are a number of publicly reported examples of criminal conduct by college athletes where the university leadership is alleged to have covered up or enabled the crimes and the NCAA did little, if anything, about it:"

These academic issues (which are described in a way to make them look as large and ominous as possible) are "criminal conduct by college athletes" that the university leadership covered up or enabled? They've lumped the academic issues at UNC with murders by college athletes. This is BULL$H!+ What happened at PSU really was criminal, and attempting to equate UNC's academic issues with the multiple homosexual rapes of pre-teen boys over a period of YEARS, and it's subsequent cover up, is a pathetic fallacy. UNC's "university leadership" should not let this stand without a response.

----------------------------------heelblue wrote:

UNC's "university leadership" should not let this stand without a response.

---------------------------------------------

Hmmm... actually being associated with PSU in any way is the real harm here. PA is definitely defaming UNC with that claim, however, by drawing anymore attention to it, we actually do more harm to ourselves. We do not want UNC and PSU used in the same sentence.

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--- ProfessorSmith wrote:

Hmmm... actually being associated with PSU in any way is the real harm here. PA is definitely defaming UNC with that claim, however, by drawing anymore attention to it, we actually do more harm to ourselves. We do not want UNC and PSU used in the same sentence.

---------------------------------------------

this is true...

unfortunately, the executive branch of government of the fine state of PA couldn't see the wisdom of pleading their own case without including specious examples...

the real problem is the lies won't stop until someone stands up and points them out...

here, I don't believe PA ever intended to lie about UNC, they are simply so stupid they did not bother to check their facts first...

there comes a point in time at which you have to say this refusing to respond is a strategy that simply isn't producing results, and you recognize that you must try something different...

so it falls to the UNC Admin to stand up and be counted...

they should not need to say more than once that it is a lie to pretend that what academic peccadilloes there were, were not already included in the sanctions; UNC says it and the NCAA says it, and there are no actual facts to the contrary, so why should anyone be lying about it?

---------------------------------------------
--- ProfessorSmith wrote:



----------------------------------heelblue wrote:

UNC's "university leadership" should not let this stand without a response.

---------------------------------------------

Hmmm... actually being associated with PSU in any way is the real harm here. PA is definitely defaming UNC with that claim, however, by drawing anymore attention to it, we actually do more harm to ourselves. We do not want UNC and PSU used in the same sentence.

---------------------------------------------

Is that you Holden?

When you bend over and stick your head in the sand you expose your a$$!

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--- MojaveHeel wrote:

rather than bury this in the other thread I thought it needed its own...

paragraph 56(d) of that anti-trust filing repeats the oft-told lie that academic fraud was wide spread at UNC and the NCAA ignored it...

nevermind that the Martin report found nothing new...

and both UNC and the NCAA have stated publicly that UNC had already been sanctioned for what had previously been found...

someone in South Building needs to stand up and scream, now it's no longer lunatic ABCers and low brow journalists engaging in this @#$%, this was the office of the general counsel of the state of PA that felt comfortable putting this in a filing in open court...

enough is enough...

---------------------------------------------

Sue the governor of PA for his political grandstanding.

---------------------------------------------
--- heelblue wrote:


---------------------------------------------
--- ProfessorSmith wrote:



----------------------------------heelblue wrote:

UNC's "university leadership" should not let this stand without a response.

---------------------------------------------

Hmmm... actually being associated with PSU in any way is the real harm here. PA is definitely defaming UNC with that claim, however, by drawing anymore attention to it, we actually do more harm to ourselves. We do not want UNC and PSU used in the same sentence.

---------------------------------------------

Is that you Holden?

When you bend over and stick your head in the sand you expose your a$$!

---------------------------------------------

This may be too nuanced a point for you, but what I'm saying is that we don't want to draw any attention to the PA governor's comments specifically for the reasons I stated. They've already been forgotten, to the extent they were ever recognized in the first place outside of Raleigh.

As to addressing the defamation perpetrated by the N&O, I think we should have our guns ablazin. We should not rest until most of their reporters have been fired, Drescher has been tarred, feathered and is hanging from a highway overpass and a public apology is issued by the the parent company and printed on the front page of both the CO and N&O. I would not restrict the means of accomplishing this at all, except as to the use of murder and rape (and potentially the quartering of soldiers so far as that might run afoul of the 3rd amendment).

In summation, I think my position can be distinguished from Chancellor Thorp's.

We have Pitt coming into the league.War would be futile.
We do have a law school,does anyone know any lawyers?
---------------------------------------------
--- ProfessorSmith wrote:

I don't want to overreact here, but I think it might be time for NC to declare war on Pennsylvania.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
--- ProfessorSmith wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- heelblue wrote:


---------------------------------------------
--- ProfessorSmith wrote:



----------------------------------heelblue wrote:

UNC's "university leadership" should not let this stand without a response.

---------------------------------------------

Hmmm... actually being associated with PSU in any way is the real harm here. PA is definitely defaming UNC with that claim, however, by drawing anymore attention to it, we actually do more harm to ourselves. We do not want UNC and PSU used in the same sentence.

---------------------------------------------

Is that you Holden?

When you bend over and stick your head in the sand you expose your a$$!

---------------------------------------------

This may be too nuanced a point for you, but what I'm saying is that we don't want to draw any attention to the PA governor's comments specifically for the reasons I stated. They've already been forgotten, to the extent they were ever recognized in the first place outside of Raleigh.

As to addressing the defamation perpetrated by the N&O, I think we should have our guns ablazin. We should not rest until most of their reporters have been fired, Drescher has been tarred, feathered and is hanging from a highway overpass and a public apology is issued by the the parent company and printed on the front page of both the CO and N&O. I would not restrict the means of accomplishing this at all, except as to the use of murder and rape (and potentially the quartering of soldiers so far as that might run afoul of the 3rd amendment).

In summation, I think my position can be distinguished from Chancellor Thorp's.

---------------------------------------------

I understand the wisdom associated with trying to make clear that you feel some ignorant detractors are beneath receiving your attention for fear that this will call attention to the existence of the issue, but that cat was out of the bag long ago...

you must not understand the national perception of what went on at UNC, although the fact that the government of the state of PA was comfortable repeating these lies should have set off an alarm...

there will never be a better time to deal with this stuff...

and yes, I agree with you that you should begin with the source, but don't stop there...

Jim Martin just got it right with both the N&O and Forbes, and so far has done more for UNC than two years of efforts out of South Building...

but since the damage you appear to be trying to avoid has already happened (and will certainly not get worse for any attempt to clear the record), there is no good reason not to let as many as possible know the truth, and that should happen today...

I'd imagine basing a lawsuit on an easily debunked lie be comforting to the defense attornies? They'll certainly entertain the judge with the Martin Report and ask the suit to be dropped post haste.

I'm happy to see anybody go after the NCAA but using us as a straw man in his lawsuit was overreaching. It's unlikely that we'll hear any apologies from PA, any more than we'll hear any reaction from our chancellor.

------------------------------------- MojaveHeel wrote:

I understand the wisdom associated with trying to make clear that you feel some ignorant detractors are beneath receiving your attention

---------------------------------------------

He suggested I was Thorp... (unlike the UNC PTB) I don't take defamation lightly.

---------------------------------------------
--- ProfessorSmith wrote:

I don't want to overreact here, but I think it might be time for NC to declare war on Pennsylvania.

---------------------------------------------

Let's wait for them to invade us, this time.

---------------------------------------------
--- ProfessorSmith wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- heelblue wrote:


---------------------------------------------
--- ProfessorSmith wrote:



----------------------------------heelblue wrote:

UNC's "university leadership" should not let this stand without a response.

---------------------------------------------

Hmmm... actually being associated with PSU in any way is the real harm here. PA is definitely defaming UNC with that claim, however, by drawing anymore attention to it, we actually do more harm to ourselves. We do not want UNC and PSU used in the same sentence.

---------------------------------------------

Is that you Holden?

When you bend over and stick your head in the sand you expose your a$$!

---------------------------------------------

This may be too nuanced a point for you, but what I'm saying is that we don't want to draw any attention to the PA governor's comments specifically for the reasons I stated. They've already been forgotten, to the extent they were ever recognized in the first place outside of Raleigh.

As to addressing the defamation perpetrated by the N&O, I think we should have our guns ablazin. We should not rest until most of their reporters have been fired, Drescher has been tarred, feathered and is hanging from a highway overpass and a public apology is issued by the the parent company and printed on the front page of both the CO and N&O. I would not restrict the means of accomplishing this at all, except as to the use of murder and rape (and potentially the quartering of soldiers so far as that might run afoul of the 3rd amendment).

In summation, I think my position can be distinguished from Chancellor Thorp's.

---------------------------------------------
Running away from something is exactly what I'd call "nuanced", more a lack of courage or resolution, and I've watched the effects of those types of attitudes play out for a couple of years now. But, hey, you're certainly entitled to your opinions, nuanced as they may be.

;-)

---------------------------------------------
--- therabidrev wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- ProfessorSmith wrote:

I don't want to overreact here, but I think it might be time for NC to declare war on Pennsylvania.

---------------------------------------------

Let's wait for them to invade us, this time.

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Well said....