Thorp's inability to lead a major university through anything other than smooth seas is the reason he and his family have suffered. Of course, it's still our fault for believing he was capable in the first place. I wonder if there aren't quite a few people who would love to have that decision back.

Thorp's performance reminded me a lot of the Don Knott's character in The Ghost and Mr Chicken film.

LOL! I've never really thought about it until now but the Ghost and Mr Chicken is a fairly good comparison. Especially during Holden's first press conference.

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--- jarpe wrote:

Thorp's inability to lead a major university through anything other than smooth seas is the reason he and his family have suffered. Of course, it's still our fault for believing he was capable in the first place. I wonder if there aren't quite a few people who would love to have that decision back.

Thorp's performance reminded me a lot of the Don Knott's character in The Ghost and Mr Chicken film.

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Some of you are obviously low level, paid by the hour pee ons that have never signed an employment contract. In the business world this is typical. A contractual payment is a contractual payment. UNC and Davis bargained, equally, for terms of a mutual contract. The payment upon termination without cause carries a required annual payment unless Davis accepts another coaching position. Any agent, lawyer or financial advisor worth $.02 would advise Davis to receive his $590k from UNC on the 15th and then sign his FIU contract on the 16th. To advise him any differently would be malpractice.

You can whine and moan about sliminess all day if you want, but it's really just petty jealousy of Davis' financial situation, ignorance of how the process works or some combination thereof.

If there is proof that Butch has taken another coaching position, such as a Memorandum of Understanding, or even correspondence between him and FIU that he has accepted the job, UNC is, most likely, off the hook, regardless of whether he has actually signed the contract.

None of the below, but thanks for the psychoanalysis.

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:

You can whine and moan about sliminess all day if you want, but it's really just petty jealousy of Davis' financial situation, ignorance of how the process works or some combination thereof.

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Then what is it exactly that you believe in your heart of hearts should trump hundreds of years of existing settled contract law in this one case?
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--- Fedoramases wrote:

None of the below, but thanks for the psychoanalysis.

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:

You can whine and moan about sliminess all day if you want, but it's really just petty jealousy of Davis' financial situation, ignorance of how the process works or some combination thereof.

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If you had to wait 20 days longer to receive a $590k payout...I dare one person on this board to say they wouldn't hold out for 20 days. If you say you wouldn't your either crazy....or your already super rich. It's a no brained and like a couple others have said its good business.

I'm sure those low level peeons who donate big dollars to UNC and who pay coaches salaries are happy that Butch Davis is trying to shake them out for 590k by being sneeky about when he is planning on announcing his acceptance of the FIU job because of some financial adviser. As if Davis does not have the final say in the matter any way.

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:


Then what is it exactly that you believe in your heart of hearts should trump hundreds of years of existing settled contract law in this one case?
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--- Fedoramases wrote:

None of the below, but thanks for the psychoanalysis.

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:

You can whine and moan about sliminess all day if you want, but it's really just petty jealousy of Davis' financial situation, ignorance of how the process works or some combination thereof.

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Low level pee on and big dollar donations are mutually exclusive, try again. Now, as for Davis being "sneaky", I don't see that. He is being out front that he has a payment due to him on 1/15 (it's public record) and he hasn't taken the FIU job, so where's the sneakiness?
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--- Fedoramases wrote:

I'm sure those low level peeons who donate big dollars to UNC and who pay coaches salaries are happy that Butch Davis is trying to shake them out for 590k by being sneeky about when he is planning on announcing his acceptance of the FIU job because of some financial adviser. As if Davis does not have the final say in the matter any way.

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:


Then what is it exactly that you believe in your heart of hearts should trump hundreds of years of existing settled contract law in this one case?
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--- Fedoramases wrote:

None of the below, but thanks for the psychoanalysis.

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:

You can whine and moan about sliminess all day if you want, but it's really just petty jealousy of Davis' financial situation, ignorance of how the process works or some combination thereof.

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^ Sneaky would be taking the job, going ahead and working, but telling everyone you haven't, waiting to take the payout, then announcing you're taking the other job "tomorrow". That's not what is afoot here.

He wants to take the FIU job and still get paid the buyout. He wants UNC to acquiesce, as they did with the Buccaneers, and pay him even though he has another job. This time there is no legal wiggle room. He knows he can't take the FIU job and still get his UNC check.

If he wants to wait and receive the UNC cash per the terms of the contract then fine by me. If he doesn't and just takes the FIU job then fine by me. Those are his options.

There is no squabble. There is no stalemate. There is a contract which one side wants to amend in order to double their income.

So, if FIU's AD vehemently denies that Davis is the new coach and such statements to the fact are 'totally false'...what is it going to look like when on Jan. 16 or shortly thereafter he says...'Hey...we got our man, and it's Butch Davis!"

You think Davis would say 'Oh yeah...they just contacted me the other day and I decided to take the job after one day of thinking on it'.

If there is nothing to hide, then just come out and say I have accepted the job? Or, would doing so jeopardize, if not eliminate, his chance of receiving the 590k?

I just think that if he has agreed in terms to become the new coach and is just waiting until after Jan. 15 simply for the sake of the payout then that is being sneaky and UNC has every right to fight him on it (and I hope their 'advisers' are doing so as well). And further, such a move is not smart I think because people will have leeway to wonder how much other stuff has he done in the past to 'skirt' issues. See what I am saying? Fair or not fair, it gives them extra room to justify their accusations.

Yes, it will cost him money...but that is what he agreed too when he signed the contract last year. There is a difference between getting a job in the summer or fall that just opened up than getting one in December of the previous year and then waiting until after January the following year to make it official.

Nonetheless, I've said enough on this...so I'm done with this.

Go Heels!

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:


Low level pee on and big dollar donations are mutually exclusive, try again. Now, as for Davis being "sneaky", I don't see that. He is being out front that he has a payment due to him on 1/15 (it's public record) and he hasn't taken the FIU job, so where's the sneakiness?

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By making it known he plans to take the job he is recruiting. No different than taking an extention to ensure recruits that you are staying at a school.

The way he was treated, let him get all he can. He is not doing anything illegal or unethical. UNC can't say the same the way they handled the situation.

I'm not going to change you mind and you're not going to change mine on this topic.! Happy New Year!

Go Heels!

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--- Fedoramases wrote:

So, if FIU's AD vehemently denies that Davis is the new coach and such statements to the fact are 'totally false'...what is it going to look like when on Jan. 16 or shortly thereafter he says...'Hey...we got our man, and it's Butch Davis!"

You think Davis would say 'Oh yeah...they just contacted me the other day and I decided to take the job after one day of thinking on it'.

If there is nothing to hide, then just come out and say I have accepted the job? Or, would doing so jeopardize, if not eliminate, his chance of receiving the 590k?

I just think that if he has agreed in terms to become the new coach and is just waiting until after Jan. 15 simply for the sake of the payout then that is being sneaky and UNC has every right to fight him on it (and I hope their 'advisers' are doing so as well). And further, such a move is not smart I think because people will have leeway to wonder how much other stuff has he done in the past to 'skirt' issues. See what I am saying? Fair or not fair, it gives them extra room to justify their accusations.

Yes, it will cost him money...but that is what he agreed too when he signed the contract last year. There is a difference between getting a job in the summer or fall that just opened up than getting one in December of the previous year and then waiting until after January the following year to make it official.

Nonetheless, I've said enough on this...so I'm done with this.

Go Heels!

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:


Low level pee on and big dollar donations are mutually exclusive, try again. Now, as for Davis being "sneaky", I don't see that. He is being out front that he has a payment due to him on 1/15 (it's public record) and he hasn't taken the FIU job, so where's the sneakiness?

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Blake was actually vetted by the NCAA.

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--- paintitcarolinablue wrote:

And Butch made that decision solely on his own? Blake wasn't vetted by UNC?

When does the dead period end?This may not be as much about money as it is about recruiting.Since he is not officially a coach anywhere he can drop in on any recruit he wants during the dead period with out breaking any rules,at least I would think this is correct.

UNC didn't mind ******* up this his job. UNC thought, wrongly, that it was good business to fire him rather than fight the NCAA. Yes, it is good business on Butch Davis' part.

I'm not suprised that Davis would pull this. He is what he is.

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--- uman1 wrote:

I'm not suprised that Davis would pull this. He is what he is.

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And I bet you would not?

Butch is due everything that the contract affords. That means if he takes another job, he gives up future payments. It is simple. This is not about who screwed whom. It is about honoring a written agreement.

peeon = geek speak?

Earning an hourly wage makes one a peeon? LoL.

Time to take the cover off of the sandbox...

If anyone is holding up Butch Davis’ hiring at FIU, it’s Davis … not UNC:
acc.blogs.starnewsonline.com/3...-not-unc/?tc=ar

I think you are a total ****** bag just because of your idiotic use of words!!!

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:

Some of you are obviously low level, paid by the hour pee ons that have never signed an employment contract. In the business world this is typical. A contractual payment is a contractual payment. UNC and Davis bargained, equally, for terms of a mutual contract. The payment upon termination without cause carries a required annual payment unless Davis accepts another coaching position. Any agent, lawyer or financial advisor worth $.02 would advise Davis to receive his $590k from UNC on the 15th and then sign his FIU contract on the 16th. To advise him any differently would be malpractice.

You can whine and moan about sliminess all day if you want, but it's really just petty jealousy of Davis' financial situation, ignorance of how the process works or some combination thereof.

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+1

Some of your language is unnecessarily inflammatory and insulting but your overall point is 100% correct. Those that have a problem with his actions clearly do not know how our capitalist society works. See my earlier post. You don't lack integrity by looking out for your own well being. Such decisions are, and always have been, the norm in business in America. Businesses, and universities for that matter, are profit maximizers. People, generally speaking, pursue their own best self interests. Why in the world would Butch walk away from a significant payment legally due to him? Just like he will do whatever he can to ensure he receives the payment, UNC would do whatever it can to avoid making the payment. It's the nature of the beast. It's business. It's America.

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:

Some of you are obviously low level, paid by the hour pee ons that have never signed an employment contract. In the business world this is typical. A contractual payment is a contractual payment. UNC and Davis bargained, equally, for terms of a mutual contract. The payment upon termination without cause carries a required annual payment unless Davis accepts another coaching position. Any agent, lawyer or financial advisor worth $.02 would advise Davis to receive his $590k from UNC on the 15th and then sign his FIU contract on the 16th. To advise him any differently would be malpractice.

You can whine and moan about sliminess all day if you want, but it's really just petty jealousy of Davis' financial situation, ignorance of how the process works or some combination thereof.

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There is nothing wrong with a person telling a prospective employer that he needs time -a few weeks- to consider the opportunity and then, on a certain date, accepting the role. The prospective employer may or may not know the reason for the delay. There is nothing wrong with Butch doing this; frankly, it's smart and he'd be stupid to do otherwise. His legal and financial advisors are advising him on how to protect his self interest.

If you had the choice of taking an action today -lets say you were going to make a $10,000 donation- but would benefit from delaying the action -lets say you can deduct 10% of the amount from your taxable income today but can deduct 70% after January 1- would you delay making the donation? Most rational persons would delay making the donation because it's in their best self interest to do so. You don't, and shouldn't, condemn a person for doing this. If the same person knowingly makes the donation prior to January 1, the person is thought of as being either selfless or stupid. Butch clearly isn't stupid and he isn't acting selflessly, which is okay. We love our university and want everyone to love, and act selflessly when dealing with, our school. Of course, that's not a realistic expectation.

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--- Fedoramases wrote:

So, if FIU's AD vehemently denies that Davis is the new coach and such statements to the fact are 'totally false'...what is it going to look like when on Jan. 16 or shortly thereafter he says...'Hey...we got our man, and it's Butch Davis!"

You think Davis would say 'Oh yeah...they just contacted me the other day and I decided to take the job after one day of thinking on it'.

If there is nothing to hide, then just come out and say I have accepted the job? Or, would doing so jeopardize, if not eliminate, his chance of receiving the 590k?

I just think that if he has agreed in terms to become the new coach and is just waiting until after Jan. 15 simply for the sake of the payout then that is being sneaky and UNC has every right to fight him on it (and I hope their 'advisers' are doing so as well). And further, such a move is not smart I think because people will have leeway to wonder how much other stuff has he done in the past to 'skirt' issues. See what I am saying? Fair or not fair, it gives them extra room to justify their accusations.

Yes, it will cost him money...but that is what he agreed too when he signed the contract last year. There is a difference between getting a job in the summer or fall that just opened up than getting one in December of the previous year and then waiting until after January the following year to make it official.

Nonetheless, I've said enough on this...so I'm done with this.

Go Heels!

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:


Low level pee on and big dollar donations are mutually exclusive, try again. Now, as for Davis being "sneaky", I don't see that. He is being out front that he has a payment due to him on 1/15 (it's public record) and he hasn't taken the FIU job, so where's the sneakiness?

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I am amazed that people think compliance with contract law eliminates sliminess. Talk about ignorance of how the process works.

I agree wholeheartedly with your point, but I doubt there's a need to insult a large portion of the populace in making it.

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:

Some of you are obviously low level, paid by the hour pee ons that have never signed an employment contract. In the business world this is typical. A contractual payment is a contractual payment. UNC and Davis bargained, equally, for terms of a mutual contract. The payment upon termination without cause carries a required annual payment unless Davis accepts another coaching position. Any agent, lawyer or financial advisor worth $.02 would advise Davis to receive his $590k from UNC on the 15th and then sign his FIU contract on the 16th. To advise him any differently would be malpractice.

You can whine and moan about sliminess all day if you want, but it's really just petty jealousy of Davis' financial situation, ignorance of how the process works or some combination thereof.

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UNC and Thorp USED him to sell the high dollar tickets to fund the expansion, plain and simple. As the donors who Thorp talked to just before the lying *** fired Butch.

You have a right to be incorrect. You don't have a right to try to claim history is bunk.
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--- yallreadyforthis wrote:

UNC didn't use him. Butch Davis wanted the star treatment. He wanted to be the man that took UNC to the next level. He said he knew what it took to win. UNC believed him. You can't have a scandal of this magnitude and not have the coach pay for it. UNC should have known after the first year this was going to be a problem. Who gets a raise after going 4-8?

Thorp is paying for it too. His life (and family's) for the past 2 years has been rough which has caused him to step down.

As for Blake, this isn't the SEC or Big 12. The ACC and UNC have standards that needed to be upheld. There's a reason why other top coaches didn't touch him--risk.

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--- paintitcarolinablue wrote:

And Butch made that decision solely on his own? Blake wasn't vetted by UNC? I guess Butch was a dictator coach who did whatever he wanted with no accountability.

Wake up. Did he make a bad hire? Yes. Who in management hasn't? Whomever hired Thorpe made the worse hire of the two.

Butch was fired on a terrible timetable. UNC used him to fund the stadium expansion and maximize season ticket sales. I don't blame him for holding out on his piece of the pie.

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--- yallreadyforthis wrote:

I fail to see how UNC screwed him over. If anything, he did it to himself. Leaders should be held accountable for their decisions. He decided to hire John Blake even though there were red flags.

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--- paintitcarolinablue wrote:

I don't blame him one god danged bit. UNC screwed him over and he should bleed every bit of blood from the stone.

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--- Fedoramases wrote:

Sounds like that is what he was hoping to do in order get the money, which imho is kinda slimy. He knew the terms of the contract when he signed it. He may be upset with how things went down here, but if this is the case his integrity takes a bit of a hit. UNC has every right to deny him the money because that was the terms of the contract, and him trying to be sneaky and 'wait' until after Jan. 15 is rank no matter how bitter he may feel about his dismissal here.

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--- bartholemew wrote:

Sounds like Butch is going to wait until after Jan. 15 before officially signing with FIU so he can get his $590K from UNC.

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--- catal11 wrote:

I am amazed that people think compliance with contract law eliminates sliminess. Talk about ignorance of how the process works.

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Maybe Jerry Jones told him to sit tight.

Say what now? Butch made stadium expansion a major part of his year 1 renegotiation. At the time I credited him for it. He used the only leverage he had to get the Blue Zone started. We can't, nor is there any need to, rewrite history that Butch was a puppet used by Thorp. It isn't true and it is patently absurd if you know anything about either of them.



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--- UNCsince53 wrote:


UNC and Thorp USED him to sell the high dollar tickets to fund the expansion, plain and simple. As the donors who Thorp talked to just before the lying *** fired Butch.

You have a right to be incorrect. You don't have a right to try to claim history is bunk.
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--- yallreadyforthis wrote:

UNC didn't use him. Butch Davis wanted the star treatment. He wanted to be the man that took UNC to the next level. He said he knew what it took to win. UNC believed him. You can't have a scandal of this magnitude and not have the coach pay for it. UNC should have known after the first year this was going to be a problem. Who gets a raise after going 4-8?

Thorp is paying for it too. His life (and family's) for the past 2 years has been rough which has caused him to step down.

As for Blake, this isn't the SEC or Big 12. The ACC and UNC have standards that needed to be upheld. There's a reason why other top coaches didn't touch him--risk.

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--- paintitcarolinablue wrote:

And Butch made that decision solely on his own? Blake wasn't vetted by UNC? I guess Butch was a dictator coach who did whatever he wanted with no accountability.

Wake up. Did he make a bad hire? Yes. Who in management hasn't? Whomever hired Thorpe made the worse hire of the two.

Butch was fired on a terrible timetable. UNC used him to fund the stadium expansion and maximize season ticket sales. I don't blame him for holding out on his piece of the pie.

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--- yallreadyforthis wrote:

I fail to see how UNC screwed him over. If anything, he did it to himself. Leaders should be held accountable for their decisions. He decided to hire John Blake even though there were red flags.

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--- paintitcarolinablue wrote:

I don't blame him one god danged bit. UNC screwed him over and he should bleed every bit of blood from the stone.

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--- Fedoramases wrote:

Sounds like that is what he was hoping to do in order get the money, which imho is kinda slimy. He knew the terms of the contract when he signed it. He may be upset with how things went down here, but if this is the case his integrity takes a bit of a hit. UNC has every right to deny him the money because that was the terms of the contract, and him trying to be sneaky and 'wait' until after Jan. 15 is rank no matter how bitter he may feel about his dismissal here.

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--- bartholemew wrote:

Sounds like Butch is going to wait until after Jan. 15 before officially signing with FIU so he can get his $590K from UNC.

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So you expect an institution which treated student-athletes, alumni contributors, private supporters, the media and just about anything else with a complete lack of ethical honesty to be treated differently?! Well, ok then....

I think BD should file suit based on the Martin report and settle for, oh, maybe $100MM. Then he should give some to the athletes who lack the resources to do the same. I am so embarassed by the antics of our very own chancellor Coward and our "faculty" that I feel only a major public licking financially will help to restore the balance. That's tough for the people of NC and the school alumni, but after all, they elected Bev and supported those who raped the program....

If some of us are" low level, paid by the hour pee ons", What sir, does that make you?High and mighty?

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--- NCtaxguy wrote:

Some of you are obviously low level, paid by the hour pee ons that have never signed an employment contract. In the business world this is typical. A contractual payment is a contractual payment. UNC and Davis bargained, equally, for terms of a mutual contract. The payment upon termination without cause carries a required annual payment unless Davis accepts another coaching position. Any agent, lawyer or financial advisor worth $.02 would advise Davis to receive his $590k from UNC on the 15th and then sign his FIU contract on the 16th. To advise him any differently would be malpractice.

You can whine and moan about sliminess all day if you want, but it's really just petty jealousy of Davis' financial situation, ignorance of how the process works or some combination thereof.

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--- Jheiser3 wrote:

He wants to take the FIU job and still get paid the buyout. He wants UNC to acquiesce, as they did with the Buccaneers, and pay him even though he has another job. This time there is no legal wiggle room. He knows he can't take the FIU job and still get his UNC check.

If he wants to wait and receive the UNC cash per the terms of the contract then fine by me. If he doesn't and just takes the FIU job then fine by me. Those are his options.

There is no squabble. There is no stalemate. There is a contract which one side wants to amend in order to double their income.

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who wants to ammend?

Sure he knew the terms of the contract but he didn't know he would be fired. If BD has actually been promised the FIU job it would seem that UNC may have a case. Personally, I doubt that FIU would step into that legal trap. I wasn't on board with our hiring BD. But, I now think he got screwed. Hope he gets his money.

owed, quite possibly - deserved, not so much

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--- jsf5259 wrote:

Nothing wrong with wanting the money you are owed/deserved.

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Not sure what you're talking about. John Blake and **** are not mentioned anywhere in ncaa sanctions.

Holden Thorp was though.

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--- yallreadyforthis wrote:

I fail to see how UNC screwed him over. If anything, he did it to himself. Leaders should be held accountable for their decisions. He decided to hire John Blake even though there were red flags.

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--- paintitcarolinablue wrote:

I don't blame him one god danged bit. UNC screwed him over and he should bleed every bit of blood from the stone.

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--- Fedoramases wrote:

Sounds like that is what he was hoping to do in order get the money, which imho is kinda slimy. He knew the terms of the contract when he signed it. He may be upset with how things went down here, but if this is the case his integrity takes a bit of a hit. UNC has every right to deny him the money because that was the terms of the contract, and him trying to be sneaky and 'wait' until after Jan. 15 is rank no matter how bitter he may feel about his dismissal here.

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--- bartholemew wrote:

Sounds like Butch is going to wait until after Jan. 15 before officially signing with FIU so he can get his $590K from UNC.

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Contracts are two sided, he was told by HT that he was safe, go on with the fund raising then they fire him.The only time I have ever been embarrassed by my University. BD deserves to be paid if only because it says so in his contract.The rule of law still applies in the USA ,unless you are GM and the federal Gov.

Butch and his reps would like him to be able to take the job ASAP and still get his money from UNC on the 15th.

FIU has to feel great, knowing that Butch would pss away the biggest recruiting weekends of the year to collect another check.



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--- HEEL31OK wrote:



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--- Jheiser3 wrote:

He wants to take the FIU job and still get paid the buyout. He wants UNC to acquiesce, as they did with the Buccaneers, and pay him even though he has another job. This time there is no legal wiggle room. He knows he can't take the FIU job and still get his UNC check.

If he wants to wait and receive the UNC cash per the terms of the contract then fine by me. If he doesn't and just takes the FIU job then fine by me. Those are his options.

There is no squabble. There is no stalemate. There is a contract which one side wants to amend in order to double their income.

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who wants to ammend?

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