---------------------------------------------
--- Heel2K wrote:

2009-
You keep talking like a pseudo intellectual and it reeks of smarmy self-righteousness often seen in the far left (politically).

The Civil War/War of North Aggression and the facts surrounding it are very much a part of NC's history and yes, part of its identity.

It ALSO has an identity as a place that is great to live, work, and raise a family. So much so that people from all over keep moving in. That says a lot about the state and the events that shaped it, INCLUDING those that seem to make you uncomfortable.

You should stop pretending to speak out on behalf of some non-existent offended population, and recognize that North Carolina is in the South. People moving here are moving to the South. The fact that they then bring their Northern/Midwestern/Foreign sensibilities doesn't change that they moved to the South. If they don't like it, they should leave.

Carolina is great because it supposedly welcomes all people with a variety of ideas, but yet people like you try to shame people that disagree with your point of view.

Just talk about football and stop being such a preachy d*ckhole.

---------------------------------------------

Are you sure it was the "War of Northern Aggression" and not the "War to Break Apart the United States in Order to Uphold the States' Rights to Have a Slave-Based Economy"?

In all seriousness, though, I'm rubber and you're glue; whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

The "average" UNC fan is someone who grew up in New York or Florida watching UNC basketball.

---------------------------------------------

I'm surprised nobody pointed out this ridiculous comment. Pretty much sums up 09's faulty logic.

---------------------------------------------
--- Steve Dallas wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

The "average" UNC fan is someone who grew up in New York or Florida watching UNC basketball.

---------------------------------------------

I'm surprised nobody pointed out this ridiculous comment. Pretty much sums up 09's faulty logic.

---------------------------------------------

There is a world outside the state of North Carolina that I have lived in. Despite being outside ACC territory, everyone I knew growing up was either a UNC basketball fan or a Duke basketball fan--and none of them cared about football.

Maybe "average" is the wrong word to use (but I was quoting the other poster) as it might imply the "mean" and have some "value of fandom" attached to it. "Median" would be a better term.

Well what is the point?

The Civil Was was 150+ years ago...let it go...I as a conservative, hate the huge craptastic federal government as much any "southener" but it had to be done. I get all the states right issues and I agree with the ideas, but this idea of being southern is peculiar and somewhat elitist. You really dont have midwesterners, who are close culturally to southerners than they are to westerners or easterners, spouting off about some "midwestern" identity they cant quantify.

So again please define southener and explain what his point was, because neither one is very clear.
---------------------------------------------
--- ShadowSpawne wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:


---------------------------------------------
--- unc4life wrote:

You have it right bamatab. You are a typical southerner. When you visit someone's home you keep a low profile; listen; and learn the lay of the land before you open your mouth. Typical Southern manners....

As for these people who don't consider North Carolina to be "as southern" as say Georgia or Alabama; they truly have no clue about this State and its history.

www.visitnc.com/journeys/artic...civil-war-facts

"While North Carolina was the last of the 11 Southern states to secede, it sent more troops and materials and suffered more losses than any other Southern state."

"More than 125,000 men from North Carolina served in the Confederate Army."

"Around 40,000 North Carolinians were killed over the course of the war."

North Carolina is a southern as it gets despite the number of transplants moving here who want to change it.

Hell will freeze over before UNC joins the Big 10.

We belong in the ACC or the SEC. My preference is the ACC.

---------------------------------------------

Really? And when UNC joins the SEC, will the South finally be properly reunited, creating the impetus for a second attempt at secession from the United States?

I can't believe some of the nonsense that makes its way out on this forum. While you're defining yourself by what happened in the 1860s, other North Carolinians are moving forward. North Carolina and Virginia are the center of the "New South," with a banking- and technology-based economy, more out-of-state transplants, and increasingly liberal politics. The North? No. But Alabama? Ha.

I can't picture any of my classmates at UNC saying anything like this and be serious about it, even the ones who descend from a long line of North Carolinians. And no one who makes any decisions about UNC's conference affiliation will ever share this sentiment, either.

I don't know what will happen, but whatever decision is made by the University will be made with a national--global--21st century outlook. You're about 150 years behind. Time to catch up.

---------------------------------------------


Why am I not shocked that you totally missed the point and went off on this wild tangent...

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

There is a world outside the state of North Carolina that I have lived in. Despite being outside ACC territory, everyone I knew growing up was either a UNC basketball fan or a Duke basketball fan--and none of them cared about football.

---------------------------------------------

So though you might be a Carolina grad/fan, you didn't grow up in the South and therefore lack the intrinsic pride Southerners embrace.

Not sure why you keep arguing against what every other fan on this thread desires, and that is to avoid the Big 10.

Also to the poster who equates Midwest values to the South, just look the presidential elections. Ya'll vote Democrat every election. We don't. Your linkage is erroneous.

---------------------------------------------
--- msjaskon wrote:

So though you might be a Carolina grad/fan, you didn't grow up in the South and therefore lack the intrinsic pride Southerners embrace.

Not sure why you keep arguing against what every other fan on this thread desires, and that is to avoid the Big 10.

Also to the poster who equates Midwest values to the South, just look the presidential elections. Ya'll vote Democrat every election. We don't. Your linkage is erroneous.

---------------------------------------------

I was born in the South (North Carolina), went to school for seven years in the South, my closest friends are Southerners, and so is my wife. No, I don't identify as a Southerner, but I sure do have a good idea of what Southern identity entails. I also take pride in my North Carolina roots and influences.

Not every fan desires to avoid the Big 10. I am indifferent but intrigued by the prospect. I know Carolina football fans in the real world who like the idea.

As for elections, just compare NC's and VA's recent voting history to other Southern states. They are similar, but with certain distinct differences.

I'm not sure what possible warped delusions have caused politics to be brought into this and I'm not even going to touch the civil war nonsense, if that is the basis of your southern pride... let's just say I prefer the SEC, stop trying to talk me out of it.

wsit, the political thing is laughable.....not all midwestern states vote democrat.....yes we have a large union population and catholic population that both vote democrat, but values wise, they're still very christian, pro gun, anti abortion, ect, yes the south has a higher percentage of white folks likt that, but those two regions are closer on those issues than any other two. And hey North Carolina voted for Obama in 08 and Virginia the last two elections, which, I'm probably a more conservative republican than you are. I love to post on usa message boards for politics.....I love crushing liberals.....

but back to the main point....I lived in ohio, tn, and now colorado....ohio and tn were much closer than either to colorado and that is much closer to either than say connecticut.

---------------------------------------------
--- msjaskon wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

There is a world outside the state of North Carolina that I have lived in. Despite being outside ACC territory, everyone I knew growing up was either a UNC basketball fan or a Duke basketball fan--and none of them cared about football.

---------------------------------------------

So though you might be a Carolina grad/fan, you didn't grow up in the South and therefore lack the intrinsic pride Southerners embrace.

Not sure why you keep arguing against what every other fan on this thread desires, and that is to avoid the Big 10.

Also to the poster who equates Midwest values to the South, just look the presidential elections. Ya'll vote Democrat every election. We don't. Your linkage is erroneous.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:


There is a world outside the state of North Carolina that I have lived in. Despite being outside ACC territory, everyone I knew growing up was either a UNC basketball fan or a Duke basketball fan--and none of them cared about football.

Maybe "average" is the wrong word to use (but I was quoting the other poster) as it might imply the "mean" and have some "value of fandom" attached to it. "Median" would be a better term.

---------------------------------------------

So since you're a UNC basketball fan who grew up outside ACC territory & doesn't care about football you presume the average UNC fan is like you. That's your basis for making such a ridiculous claim?

And you make a snide remark implying that those of us who grew up in North Carolina have never lived outside the state? I suppose we're small minded people who don't have your worldly wisdom and experience?

You know, your posts have been dripping with arrogance and condescension. I'm not sure what you're motivation is on this thread, but if it's to p!ss off native North Carolinians who've spent their whole lives investing emotionally & financially in the success of UNC (NOT just the basketball team) then mission accomplished.

espn.go.com/college-football/s...ollege-football

-------------------------------------------------- --------
The Big Ten will ditch Legends and Leaders as its division names before Maryland and Rutgers join the conference in 2014.

Sadly, Delany and the Big Ten's athletic directors and presidents will pass on the most appropriate division names available: Rose Bowl Loser and Capital One Bowl Loser.
-------------------------------------------------- --------


LMAO I bet our big-10 tro...posters will love this shot. XD

---------------------------------------------
--- msjaskon wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

There is a world outside the state of North Carolina that I have lived in. Despite being outside ACC territory, everyone I knew growing up was either a UNC basketball fan or a Duke basketball fan--and none of them cared about football.

---------------------------------------------

So though you might be a Carolina grad/fan, you didn't grow up in the South and therefore lack the intrinsic pride Southerners embrace.

Not sure why you keep arguing against what every other fan on this thread desires, and that is to avoid the Big 10.

Also to the poster who equates Midwest values to the South, just look the presidential elections. Ya'll vote Democrat every election. We don't. Your linkage is erroneous.

---------------------------------------------

So with all of your southern pride you want a yankee catholic democratic school called Notre Dame to join to save the league.

---------------------------------------------
--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

espn.go.com/college-football/s...ollege-football

-------------------------------------------------- --------
The Big Ten will ditch Legends and Leaders as its division names before Maryland and Rutgers join the conference in 2014.

Sadly, Delany and the Big Ten's athletic directors and presidents will pass on the most appropriate division names available: Rose Bowl Loser and Capital One Bowl Loser.
-------------------------------------------------- --------


LMAO I bet our big-10 tro...posters will love this shot. XD

---------------------------------------------

Shadow The BIG has cost ESPiN millions and millions of dollars. SEC is making ESPiN millions of dollars.. Any quote from that biased " sports news channel " can be taken with a grain of salt.

---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- Heel2K wrote:

2009-
You keep talking like a pseudo intellectual and it reeks of smarmy self-righteousness often seen in the far left (politically).

The Civil War/War of North Aggression and the facts surrounding it are very much a part of NC's history and yes, part of its identity.

It ALSO has an identity as a place that is great to live, work, and raise a family. So much so that people from all over keep moving in. That says a lot about the state and the events that shaped it, INCLUDING those that seem to make you uncomfortable.

You should stop pretending to speak out on behalf of some non-existent offended population, and recognize that North Carolina is in the South. People moving here are moving to the South. The fact that they then bring their Northern/Midwestern/Foreign sensibilities doesn't change that they moved to the South. If they don't like it, they should leave.

Carolina is great because it supposedly welcomes all people with a variety of ideas, but yet people like you try to shame people that disagree with your point of view.

Just talk about football and stop being such a preachy d*ckhole.

---------------------------------------------

Are you sure it was the "War of Northern Aggression" and not the "War to Break Apart the United States in Order to Uphold the States' Rights to Have a Slave-Based Economy"?

---------------------------------------------

Agreed.

I love it when people have NO idea what they are talking about regarding slavery and the South.

Slavery was legal in ALL of the American colonies, North and South, through the Revolutionary War period.

You do realize that Ohio didn't abolish slavery until 1802, right?

And that NJ abolished slavery in 1804 but with a "grandfather clause" which meant that if you were a slave in NJ in 1804, you would remain a slave for life? This means that there was legalized slavery still in existence in NEW JERSEY right up until the eve of the Civil War.

Indiana didn't abolish slavery until 1816.

New Hampshire didn't abolish slavery until 1857!! Just 4 years before the war began!

My point is this - those of you who are defining the South by its slaveholding history are way off the mark. Yes, that is a part of Southern history that we cannot run or hide from.

But if the South is to be defined by slavery then the North should be as well.

The South is much more than that. To suggest that a Southern culture does not exist as a subculture of American culture is absurd. Our very own beloved University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill is home to the Center for the Study of the American South. Surely there must be some importance to the concept of the South and Southern culture for UNC to invest such resources in its study, right?

If you want to know what Southern culture is and you don't already understand it, I suggest you read a little John Shelton Reed.

www.albertmohler.com/2011/02/2...n-shelton-reed/

I'm done with this North-South conversation.

The South just is. And so is Southern culture. For too many reasons to explain on a message board, I feel safe saying that MOST UNC alums and fans would prefer to be in an athletic conference with other Southern schools. It really is that simple.

---------------------------------------------
--- ajscratch71 wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- Heel2K wrote:

2009-
You keep talking like a pseudo intellectual and it reeks of smarmy self-righteousness often seen in the far left (politically).

The Civil War/War of North Aggression and the facts surrounding it are very much a part of NC's history and yes, part of its identity.

It ALSO has an identity as a place that is great to live, work, and raise a family. So much so that people from all over keep moving in. That says a lot about the state and the events that shaped it, INCLUDING those that seem to make you uncomfortable.

You should stop pretending to speak out on behalf of some non-existent offended population, and recognize that North Carolina is in the South. People moving here are moving to the South. The fact that they then bring their Northern/Midwestern/Foreign sensibilities doesn't change that they moved to the South. If they don't like it, they should leave.

Carolina is great because it supposedly welcomes all people with a variety of ideas, but yet people like you try to shame people that disagree with your point of view.

Just talk about football and stop being such a preachy d*ckhole.

---------------------------------------------

Are you sure it was the "War of Northern Aggression" and not the "War to Break Apart the United States in Order to Uphold the States' Rights to Have a Slave-Based Economy"?

---------------------------------------------

Agreed.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
--- Heel2K wrote:

2009-
You keep talking like a pseudo intellectual and it reeks of smarmy self-righteousness often seen in the far left (politically).

The Civil War/War of North Aggression and the facts surrounding it are very much a part of NC's history and yes, part of its identity.

It ALSO has an identity as a place that is great to live, work, and raise a family. So much so that people from all over keep moving in. That says a lot about the state and the events that shaped it, INCLUDING those that seem to make you uncomfortable.

You should stop pretending to speak out on behalf of some non-existent offended population, and recognize that North Carolina is in the South. People moving here are moving to the South. The fact that they then bring their Northern/Midwestern/Foreign sensibilities doesn't change that they moved to the South. If they don't like it, they should leave.

Carolina is great because it supposedly welcomes all people with a variety of ideas, but yet people like you try to shame people that disagree with your point of view.

Just talk about football and stop being such a preachy d*ckhole.

---------------------------------------------

To translate 2K's 4th paragraph: "Get your heart in Dixie or get your <<beast of burden>> out!"

I haven't seen one of those tags or stickers in ages!


As for this conversation as a whole, SMH.

Meanwhile, others on this thread see this conversation as a "hole," and I don't mean "Tarhole."

Because it may be difficult to quantify doesn't mean it isn't real.

I guarantee you that if we stood on a street corner in NYC and asked passersby to comment on "what is a midwesterner?", they'd scratch their heads and probably reply with a smile, "Somebody from the midwest?". OTOH, if you asked them "what is a Southerner?", you'd get a stream full of particulars.

I don't like the politics comparison. It's far more cultural although politics can reflect those cultural differences. I can't imagine a Faulkner or a Flannery O'Conner story set in Ames, Iowa. Or Sun records and so much of American musical history (blues, rock, jazz and country)coming out of Muncie, Indiana. Or "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" or "Streetcar Named Desire"'s setting in St Paul, Minnesota.

And here's a Civil War tale: www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ4u-BnVVJQ

---------------------------------------------
--- buckeye4573 wrote:

Well what is the point?

The Civil Was was 150+ years ago...let it go...I as a conservative, hate the huge craptastic federal government as much any "southener" but it had to be done. I get all the states right issues and I agree with the ideas, but this idea of being southern is peculiar and somewhat elitist. You really dont have midwesterners, who are close culturally to southerners than they are to westerners or easterners, spouting off about some "midwestern" identity they cant quantify.

So again please define southener and explain what his point was, because neither one is very clear.
---------------------------------------------
--- ShadowSpawne wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:


---------------------------------------------
--- unc4life wrote:

You have it right bamatab. You are a typical southerner. When you visit someone's home you keep a low profile; listen; and learn the lay of the land before you open your mouth. Typical Southern manners....

As for these people who don't consider North Carolina to be "as southern" as say Georgia or Alabama; they truly have no clue about this State and its history.

www.visitnc.com/journeys/artic...civil-war-facts

"While North Carolina was the last of the 11 Southern states to secede, it sent more troops and materials and suffered more losses than any other Southern state."

"More than 125,000 men from North Carolina served in the Confederate Army."

"Around 40,000 North Carolinians were killed over the course of the war."

North Carolina is a southern as it gets despite the number of transplants moving here who want to change it.

Hell will freeze over before UNC joins the Big 10.

We belong in the ACC or the SEC. My preference is the ACC.

-----------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

How did we go from conference re alignment to Civil War and politics? ***. Isn't there another board for that. Go there.

Because certain visitors do not seem to understand why many of us here prefer a Southern athletic conference affiliation versus a Northern one.

---------------------------------------------
--- fishnfrank wrote:

How did we go from conference re alignment to Civil War and politics? ***. Isn't there another board for that. Go there.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
--- Steve Dallas wrote:

---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:


There is a world outside the state of North Carolina that I have lived in. Despite being outside ACC territory, everyone I knew growing up was either a UNC basketball fan or a Duke basketball fan--and none of them cared about football.

Maybe "average" is the wrong word to use (but I was quoting the other poster) as it might imply the "mean" and have some "value of fandom" attached to it. "Median" would be a better term.

---------------------------------------------

So since you're a UNC basketball fan who grew up outside ACC territory & doesn't care about football you presume the average UNC fan is like you. That's your basis for making such a ridiculous claim?

And you make a snide remark implying that those of us who grew up in North Carolina have never lived outside the state? I suppose we're small minded people who don't have your worldly wisdom and experience?

You know, your posts have been dripping with arrogance and condescension. I'm not sure what you're motivation is on this thread, but if it's to p!ss off native North Carolinians who've spent their whole lives investing emotionally & financially in the success of UNC (NOT just the basketball team) then mission accomplished.

---------------------------------------------

Congratulations on misconstruing everything I said. I am a UNC fan--basketball, football, baseball, soccer, etc. Scratch that--I am a UNC alumnus who is heavily invested in the University and every athletic team. I'm tired of fellow UNC fans on IC giving me crap when I've probably spent more time at UNC athletic events over the past 10 years than most people on this board. Just stop.

What I am saying is that UNC basketball has an international appeal that the football team doesn't even come close to matching. I love the football, but it is a fact. There are millions of UNC basketball fans out there. If we lump those basketball fans in with UNC all-sports fans, like you and me, there's going to be more basketball-only fans.

In the name of decency, I won't address the personal attacks other than to say take a look in the mirror.

---------------------------------------------
--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

espn.go.com/college-football/s...ollege-football

-------------------------------------------------- --------
The Big Ten will ditch Legends and Leaders as its division names before Maryland and Rutgers join the conference in 2014.

Sadly, Delany and the Big Ten's athletic directors and presidents will pass on the most appropriate division names available: Rose Bowl Loser and Capital One Bowl Loser.
-------------------------------------------------- --------


LMAO I bet our big-10 tro...posters will love this shot. XD

---------------------------------------------

lolz. I am on record as saying that their division names are the biggest problems I have with the BIG ? , so this at least removes that obstacle. Maybe they'll consider my suggestions of "Corn Belt" and "Rust Belt" divisions... or maybe just the "Michigan" and "Ohio State" divisions... although your suggestions would be quite appropriate.

Like Nebraska!!

---------------------------------------------
--- BamainCarolina wrote:

Because certain visitors do not seem to understand why many of us here prefer a Southern athletic conference affiliation versus a Northern one.

---------------------------------------------
--- fishnfrank wrote:

How did we go from conference re alignment to Civil War and politics? ***. Isn't there another board for that. Go there.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

---------------------------------------------
--- Steve Dallas wrote:

---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:


There is a world outside the state of North Carolina that I have lived in. Despite being outside ACC territory, everyone I knew growing up was either a UNC basketball fan or a Duke basketball fan--and none of them cared about football.

Maybe "average" is the wrong word to use (but I was quoting the other poster) as it might imply the "mean" and have some "value of fandom" attached to it. "Median" would be a better term.

---------------------------------------------

So since you're a UNC basketball fan who grew up outside ACC territory & doesn't care about football you presume the average UNC fan is like you. That's your basis for making such a ridiculous claim?

And you make a snide remark implying that those of us who grew up in North Carolina have never lived outside the state? I suppose we're small minded people who don't have your worldly wisdom and experience?

You know, your posts have been dripping with arrogance and condescension. I'm not sure what you're motivation is on this thread, but if it's to p!ss off native North Carolinians who've spent their whole lives investing emotionally & financially in the success of UNC (NOT just the basketball team) then mission accomplished.

---------------------------------------------

Congratulations on misconstruing everything I said. I am a UNC fan--basketball, football, baseball, soccer, etc. Scratch that--I am a UNC alumnus who is heavily invested in the University and every athletic team. I'm tired of fellow UNC fans on IC giving me crap when I've probably spent more time at UNC athletic events over the past 10 years than most people on this board. Just stop.

What I am saying is that UNC basketball has an international appeal that the football team doesn't even come close to matching. I love the football, but it is a fact. There are millions of UNC basketball fans out there. If we lump those basketball fans in with UNC all-sports fans, like you and me, there's going to be more basketball-only fans.

In the name of decency, I won't address the personal attacks other than to say take a look in the mirror.

---------------------------------------------

Oh boo hoo personal attacks. I and most posters on this board readily discussed the pros and cons of big10 and sec membership, should such a move become necessary. You, on the other hand, came on here trying to shame everyone who feels Southern by suggesting that to celebrate Southern heritage is to wish for a return to slavery. You are the problem, not the Savior who is going to magically bring together differing views with your never before seen wisdom.

As for your really stupid comment about the Civil War being about slavery, which is revisionist history, by the way, feel free to do a quick search on the Emancipation proclamation. It came in 1863, halfway through the war, not at the beginning. Lincoln also only freed slaves under Confederate control, meaning the 5 states under Union control with slave populations kept slaves until well after the war. Lincoln tried a preliminary proclamation earlier, but made it conditional- if the states returned to the Union, they kept their slaves. The abolition of slavery become a rally cry later in the war, not the reason behind it. The war was about what all wars are about: economics, taxes, and power. The South did things differently, and resented the North's continued control and what they felt was unfair taxation. The dates and events of history just don't jive with your version of events. Because you are a lazy intellectual.

Now, as has been said repeatedly, by myself and many others, being Southern doesn't mean being racist or wishing for a return to the good old days that apparently concern you. But the Southern identity is very real and a source of pride for many and it is ridiculous and unacceptable for you to continue coming on here specifically to berate people for simply expressing they feel a closer kinship or relationship with other traditionally Southern schools. We all recognize and celebrate the international appeal of UNC, but that appeal wouldn't go away simply by being associated with tje conference that has handily won the last seven football titles and the most recent basketball title.

You can express whatever opinion you like, but please stop trying to make people feel bad for being proud of their heritage.

---------------------------------------------
--- Heel2K wrote:

Oh boo hoo personal attacks. I and most posters on this board readily discussed the pros and cons of big10 and sec membership, should such a move become necessary. You, on the other hand, came on here trying to shame everyone who feels Southern by suggesting that to celebrate Southern heritage is to wish for a return to slavery. You are the problem, not the Savior who is going to magically bring together differing views with your never before seen wisdom.

As for your really stupid comment about the Civil War being about slavery, which is revisionist history, by the way, feel free to do a quick search on the Emancipation proclamation. It came in 1863, halfway through the war, not at the beginning. Lincoln also only freed slaves under Confederate control, meaning the 5 states under Union control with slave populations kept slaves until well after the war. Lincoln tried a preliminary proclamation earlier, but made it conditional- if the states returned to the Union, they kept their slaves. The abolition of slavery become a rally cry later in the war, not the reason behind it. The war was about what all wars are about: economics, taxes, and power. The South did things differently, and resented the North's continued control and what they felt was unfair taxation. The dates and events of history just don't jive with your version of events. Because you are a lazy intellectual.

Now, as has been said repeatedly, by myself amd many others, being Southern doesn't mean being racist or wishing for a return to the good old days that apparently concern you. But the Southern identity is very real and a source of pride for many and it is ridiculous and unacceptable for you to continue coming on here specifically to berate people for simply expressing they feel a closer kinship or relationship with other traditionally Southern achools. We all recognize and celebrate the international appeal of UNC, but that appeal wouldn't go away simply by being associated with tje conference that has handily won the last seven football titles and the most recent basketball title.

You can express whatever opinion you like, but please stop trying to make people feel bad for being proud of their heritage.

---------------------------------------------

I never said or implied any of those things about the South. As I said, I have many Southern roots and influences, and most of the closest people in my life are Southern. I believe Southerners should be proud of their American subculture and embrace many aspects of it, even if I personally don't (for instance, I just can't get into sweet tea). And I also believe that North Carolina's Southern identity is a legitimate reason for wanting UNC to join the SEC, even if I don't agree that this consideration will ultimately carry any weight in UNC's decision. All I said was that you should stop using the Civil War to define your Southern identity, and you should definitely stop using it as an indirect justification for preferring not to join the Big Ten.

And I'm just not going to touch your Civil War history...

---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

(for instance, I just can't get into sweet tea).

---------------------------------------------

Say what now?

---------------------------------------------
--- ProfessorSmith wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

(for instance, I just can't get into sweet tea).

---------------------------------------------

Say what now?

---------------------------------------------

Yeah, I know. My friends give me funny looks, too.

Can we get back to a conference realignment discussion now before we get this rather awesome thread locked?

I think it is fairly safe to say, at least based on the input on this board, that IF (and I repeat IF) for some reason the ACC becomes an unstable home for our athletics program that MOST of us on this board prefer the SEC to the B1G.

It really isn't a knock on the B1G at all. I happen to think that there are many fine institutions in that league and if this were about anything other than athletics, I most likely wouldn't have a problem with affiliation with the B1G.

We can have all of the research and grant agreements with B1G universities that we want. I just don't particularly care to play football, basketball, and baseball against them on a routine basis.

---------------------------------------------
--- BamainCarolina wrote:

We can have all of the research and grant agreements with B1G universities that we want. I just don't particularly care to play football, basketball, and baseball against them on a routine basis.

---------------------------------------------

I think baseball is the biggest concern about joining the Big Ten. Let's be honest, joining the Big Ten would be an upgrade for us in terms of football. Baseball, on the other hand, could take a hit.

FWIW, per the tOSU board, it has been said that the Big Ten would like to make its baseball a point of emphasis should it expand into the South. If we ever join the Big Ten, I would be very interested in hearing what baseball considerations were made and if in fact there are any plans to emphasize it.

1. to dismiss the central role of the slavery issue in secession and the American Civil War you have to be ignorant of virtually the entire history of the United States from its founding up until the moment the shells started flying in Charleston Harbor in April 1861 ........ your ignorance would include almost all the important political events of the first half of the 19th century such as the Missouri Compromise, the Mexican War, the Compromise of 1850, the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the formation of the Republican Party, the election of 1860 and innumerable other events in the first 80+ years of the existence of the United States which revolved around the question of African slavery ........


2. this idea that the Civil War wasn't really about slavery because the Emancipation Proclamation was not issued until 1862/1863 is a canard that completely misconveys the Constitutional status of slavery at the time, the "delicate" status of key Border States, the nature of the political controversies surrounding the slavery issue, and the war strategy of the North at the beginning of the War .....

a book published in 2012 is one of the best Civil War books I have ever read - "The Long Road to Antietam" - Slotkin ..... it will explain to you why the Emancipation Proclamation came out when it did and in the form that it did ....... and how the Emancipation Proclamation marked a dramatic change of course in the North's military strategy in the War compared to 1861 .......


3. no need to wonder about why the South seceded .... like any other contentious political controversy the issues are spelled out plainly for everyone to see ...... here are excerpts from resolutions published by the the legislatures of the first two states to secede - South Carolina and Mississippi ..... these are not some historian's interpretation of what happened or some post Civil War attempt at CYA ...... but the very words from the pens of the secessionists themselves - written as the secession crisis was unfolding in late 1860 and 1861 .......... both of these documents place the Northern threat towards slavery at the heart of their actions to secede ..... there is no mention of taxes or economic development or "power" (whatever that means) ..... read the whole resolutions - it is very clear that slavery is at the forefront of their thinking .......


A) from the South Carolina "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union" published by the SC legislature the day after they adopted their Ordinance of Secession:

"On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory***, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.
The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy. "

***in other words it is/will be within the power of the Federal government/Congress to decide whether to exclude slavery ["the South"] from Federal Territories ........


B) and from a similar resolution published by the State of Mississippi coterminous with that State's secession (the second state to secede):

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin."



4. I would also refer you to Lincoln's First Inaugural Address (March 1861) where is he desperately trying to hold the country together - the upper tier of Southern states had not seceded as of that point ...... on what basis does he appeal to these States to remain in the Union ? ...... he doesn't talk about taxes or economics or "power" --- No - he specifically reassures the South about the continuation of slavery in the South where it is already established (without conceding on the question of slavery in the territories) ......... do you think Lincoln was somehow misinformed about what all the 'fuss' was about ?



please excuse my detour ....... back to football .........

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--- Heel2K wrote:

As for your really stupid comment about the Civil War being about slavery, which is revisionist history, by the way, feel free to do a quick search on the Emancipation proclamation. It came in 1863, halfway through the war, not at the beginning. Lincoln also only freed slaves under Confederate control, meaning the 5 states under Union control with slave populations kept slaves until well after the war. Lincoln tried a preliminary proclamation earlier, but made it conditional- if the states returned to the Union, they kept their slaves. The abolition of slavery become a rally cry later in the war, not the reason behind it. The war was about what all wars are about: economics, taxes, and power. The South did things differently, and resented the North's continued control and what they felt was unfair taxation. The dates and events of history just don't jive with your version of events. Because you are a lazy intellectual.

Now, as has been said repeatedly, by myself and many others, being Southern doesn't mean being racist or wishing for a return to the good old days that apparently concern you. But the Southern identity is very real and a source of pride for many and it is ridiculous and unacceptable for you to continue coming on here specifically to berate people for simply expressing they feel a closer kinship or relationship with other traditionally Southern schools. We all recognize and celebrate the international appeal of UNC, but that appeal wouldn't go away simply by being associated with tje conference that has handily won the last seven football titles and the most recent basketball title.

You can express whatever opinion you like, but please stop trying to make people feel bad for being proud of their heritage.

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:


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--- ProfessorSmith wrote:



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--- Carolina2009 wrote:

(for instance, I just can't get into sweet tea).

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Say what now?

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Yeah, I know. My friends give me funny looks, too.

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That ain't right.

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--- Heel2K wrote:

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:

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--- Steve Dallas wrote:

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:


There is a world outside the state of North Carolina that I have lived in. Despite being outside ACC territory, everyone I knew growing up was either a UNC basketball fan or a Duke basketball fan--and none of them cared about football.

Maybe "average" is the wrong word to use (but I was quoting the other poster) as it might imply the "mean" and have some "value of fandom" attached to it. "Median" would be a better term.

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So since you're a UNC basketball fan who grew up outside ACC territory & doesn't care about football you presume the average UNC fan is like you. That's your basis for making such a ridiculous claim?

And you make a snide remark implying that those of us who grew up in North Carolina have never lived outside the state? I suppose we're small minded people who don't have your worldly wisdom and experience?

You know, your posts have been dripping with arrogance and condescension. I'm not sure what you're motivation is on this thread, but if it's to p!ss off native North Carolinians who've spent their whole lives investing emotionally & financially in the success of UNC (NOT just the basketball team) then mission accomplished.

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Congratulations on misconstruing everything I said. I am a UNC fan--basketball, football, baseball, soccer, etc. Scratch that--I am a UNC alumnus who is heavily invested in the University and every athletic team. I'm tired of fellow UNC fans on IC giving me crap when I've probably spent more time at UNC athletic events over the past 10 years than most people on this board. Just stop.

What I am saying is that UNC basketball has an international appeal that the football team doesn't even come close to matching. I love the football, but it is a fact. There are millions of UNC basketball fans out there. If we lump those basketball fans in with UNC all-sports fans, like you and me, there's going to be more basketball-only fans.

In the name of decency, I won't address the personal attacks other than to say take a look in the mirror.

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Oh boo hoo personal attacks. I and most posters on this board readily discussed the pros and cons of big10 and sec membership, should such a move become necessary. You, on the other hand, came on here trying to shame everyone who feels Southern by suggesting that to celebrate Southern heritage is to wish for a return to slavery. You are the problem, not the Savior who is going to magically bring together differing views with your never before seen wisdom.

As for your really stupid comment about the Civil War being about slavery, which is revisionist history, by the way, feel free to do a quick search on the Emancipation proclamation. It came in 1863, halfway through the war, not at the beginning. Lincoln also only freed slaves under Confederate control, meaning the 5 states under Union control with slave populations kept slaves until well after the war. Lincoln tried a preliminary proclamation earlier, but made it conditional- if the states returned to the Union, they kept their slaves. The abolition of slavery become a rally cry later in the war, not the reason behind it. The war was about what all wars are about: economics, taxes, and power. The South did things differently, and resented the North's continued control and what they felt was unfair taxation. The dates and events of history just don't jive with your version of events. Because you are a lazy intellectual.

Now, as has been said repeatedly, by myself and many others, being Southern doesn't mean being racist or wishing for a return to the good old days that apparently concern you. But the Southern identity is very real and a source of pride for many and it is ridiculous and unacceptable for you to continue coming on here specifically to berate people for simply expressing they feel a closer kinship or relationship with other traditionally Southern schools. We all recognize and celebrate the international appeal of UNC, but that appeal wouldn't go away simply by being associated with tje conference that has handily won the last seven football titles and the most recent basketball title.

You can express whatever opinion you like, but please stop trying to make people feel bad for being proud of their heritage.

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Well said, 2K, an articulate and intelligent poast which indicates thinking above and beyond the "lazy intellectualism" that characterizes typical discourse on all things Southern, including the Civil War. For those who don't understand the contemporary concept of Southernness, I'll echo a previous poaster on this thread, who suggested reading books by a former mentor of mine at UNC, John Shelton Reed. We at Carolina invented regional sociology, BTW.

Again, I'm not on here to bash the Big 10 or the snowy climes it inhabits, just to express preference for our brethren in the SEC. There are some fine schools in the Big 10, particularly Michigan, the alma mater of one of my favorite aunts. I don't "hate" Big 10 teams as a rule, I just prefer the SEC.

I honestly don't expect people from outside the region or even the culturally deprived and institutionally "PC" brainwashed from inside the region to comprehend the sweet, savory complexity of Southernness. To quote a Down East NC preacher buddy of mine, Southernness "is better felt than telt." I can't give you a perfect recipe for the ultimate Easten NC BBQ sauce, which divinely balances vinegar, red pepper, black pepper, salt, and maybe even sugar, but I know it when I taste it. Likewise, I don't know the exact formula for an original Krispy Kreme donut, beyond the fact that it contains some potato flour and air, but when a hot one plants itelf on my tongue I know that there is a God and that He loves me and wants me to be happy.

"Better felt than telt."

good point, baseball sucks in the B10, I wont lie....but it is not emphasized at all....OSU built a new stadium about 10 years ago and they were one of the few to try and emphasize it....I think if we got some southern baseball teams it would really help teams to focus on it....Wisconsin doesnt even field a baseball team, and some B10 teams have made it to the super regionals, they just couldnt finish it....

I found an article on the B10 working to improve facilities to help recruiting and such.

www.athleticbusiness.com/artic...2&zoneid=27

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:



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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

We can have all of the research and grant agreements with B1G universities that we want. I just don't particularly care to play football, basketball, and baseball against them on a routine basis.

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I think baseball is the biggest concern about joining the Big Ten. Let's be honest, joining the Big Ten would be an upgrade for us in terms of football. Baseball, on the other hand, could take a hit.

FWIW, per the tOSU board, it has been said that the Big Ten would like to make its baseball a point of emphasis should it expand into the South. If we ever join the Big Ten, I would be very interested in hearing what baseball considerations were made and if in fact there are any plans to emphasize it.

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There are not many threads that educate the reader on a variety of issues as this one has. I'm definitely smarter than I was last week.

Now hopefully back to the topic at hand. The BIG10 is an awesome conference. For different reasons, the SEC is an equally awesome conference. If the ACC's days are numbered, the one thing the SEC has to offer is a return to what was the "Southern Conference" with several of UNC's old rivals and potential new regional rivals. That's not to say the BIG10 would be a disaster, it's a truly great conference. It's just that the SEC is preferred.

I get that....my thing is I will defend the B10 when people hammer on it, especially with general BS they hear from the mainstream media, especially ESPN...Schlabach took some more shots at the B10 and OSU...what a tool.

espn.go.com/college-football/s...ollege-football


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--- DeadeyeDirk wrote:

There are not many threads that educate the reader on a variety of issues as this one has. I'm definitely smarter than I was last week.

Now hopefully back to the topic at hand. The BIG10 is an awesome conference. For different reasons, the SEC is an equally awesome conference. If the ACC's days are numbered, the one thing the SEC has to offer is a return to what was the "Southern Conference" with several of UNC's old rivals and potential new regional rivals. That's not to say the BIG10 would be a disaster, it's a truly great conference. It's just that the SEC is preferred.

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:



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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

We can have all of the research and grant agreements with B1G universities that we want. I just don't particularly care to play football, basketball, and baseball against them on a routine basis.

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I think baseball is the biggest concern about joining the Big Ten. Let's be honest, joining the Big Ten would be an upgrade for us in terms of football. Baseball, on the other hand, could take a hit.

FWIW, per the tOSU board, it has been said that the Big Ten would like to make its baseball a point of emphasis should it expand into the South. If we ever join the Big Ten, I would be very interested in hearing what baseball considerations were made and if in fact there are any plans to emphasize it.

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How the Big 10 would make baseball a bigger point of interest would be an interesting discussion, no doubt.

IIRC, Commissioner Delany wanted the beginning of the season pushed back a few weeks, to accomodate northern schools that were still dealing with winter weather. I totally understand his point. How you solve that would make for quite the conversation.

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--- WesternStormer wrote:



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--- Carolina2009 wrote:



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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

We can have all of the research and grant agreements with B1G universities that we want. I just don't particularly care to play football, basketball, and baseball against them on a routine basis.

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I think baseball is the biggest concern about joining the Big Ten. Let's be honest, joining the Big Ten would be an upgrade for us in terms of football. Baseball, on the other hand, could take a hit.

FWIW, per the tOSU board, it has been said that the Big Ten would like to make its baseball a point of emphasis should it expand into the South. If we ever join the Big Ten, I would be very interested in hearing what baseball considerations were made and if in fact there are any plans to emphasize it.

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How the Big 10 would make baseball a bigger point of interest would be an interesting discussion, no doubt.

IIRC, Commissioner Delany wanted the beginning of the season pushed back a few weeks, to accomodate northern schools that were still dealing with winter weather. I totally understand his point. How you solve that would make for quite the conversation.

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That's one way of doing it. The conference could also frontload in-conference home games for teams in warmer climates.

Also, the Big Ten required Maryland and Rutgers to put forth plans for investment in certain aspects of their programs. All Big Ten schools could take a similar initiative with regard to investment in coaching staffs, recruiting efforts, facilities, and marketing.

Next time you're in Chapel Hill, send me a PM, we'll see what you're made of tough guy.

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--- buckeye4573 wrote:

..I love crushing liberals.....

----

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:



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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

We can have all of the research and grant agreements with B1G universities that we want. I just don't particularly care to play football, basketball, and baseball against them on a routine basis.

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I think baseball is the biggest concern about joining the Big Ten. Let's be honest, joining the Big Ten would be an upgrade for us in terms of football. Baseball, on the other hand, could take a hit.

FWIW, per the tOSU board, it has been said that the Big Ten would like to make its baseball a point of emphasis should it expand into the South. If we ever join the Big Ten, I would be very interested in hearing what baseball considerations were made and if in fact there are any plans to emphasize it.

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Baseball is a big concern, the biggest concern is forcing the SEC to take state. That is a knife at UNC's throat, no matter how much you want to try and ignore it.

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--- ShadowSpawne wrote:



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--- Carolina2009 wrote:



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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

We can have all of the research and grant agreements with B1G universities that we want. I just don't particularly care to play football, basketball, and baseball against them on a routine basis.

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I think baseball is the biggest concern about joining the Big Ten. Let's be honest, joining the Big Ten would be an upgrade for us in terms of football. Baseball, on the other hand, could take a hit.

FWIW, per the tOSU board, it has been said that the Big Ten would like to make its baseball a point of emphasis should it expand into the South. If we ever join the Big Ten, I would be very interested in hearing what baseball considerations were made and if in fact there are any plans to emphasize it.

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Baseball is a big concern, the biggest concern is forcing the SEC to take state. That is a knife at UNC's throat, no matter how much you want to try and ignore it.

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I understand the concern, as there is a possibility of State's team getting a boost from SEC membership, but I'm not nearly as worried as many people on IC. Kentucky, for example, isn't exactly a football powerhouse. And South Carolina barely had any noteworthy seasons for the 20 years before Steve Spurrier took over--and there aren't exactly a lot of Steve Spurriers out there. Other things would definitely have to fall into place for State to truly rise in the football ranks. Being in the SEC would make that easier on them, but SEC membership alone wouldn't tip the state in their favor, in my opinion.

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:

I understand the concern, as there is a possibility of State's team getting a boost from SEC membership, but I'm not nearly as worried as many people on IC. Kentucky, for example, isn't exactly a football powerhouse. And South Carolina barely had any noteworthy seasons for the 20 years before Steve Spurrier took over--and there aren't exactly a lot of Steve Spurriers out there. Other things would definitely have to fall into place for State to truly rise in the football ranks. Being in the SEC would make that easier on them, but SEC membership alone wouldn't tip the state in their favor, in my opinion.

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Your examples are not an apples-to-apples comparison with UNC.

First, Kentucky is a basketball first program located in a state that is depleted in football talent. They literally have to go out of state for the vast majority of top-self football recruits. The same holds true for UL, and if (when) Strong leaves they'll have a hard time replicating his success. North Carolina produces a fair share of football talent, and any team that becomes predomiant within the State will gain excellent local talent. Part of the problem for all NC universities is that the local talent is split five ways when you include ECU. None can get a leg up on the others, or when they do they can't maintain it. Any one school going into the SEC will have a built in recruiting advantage over the other four simply by associating with Bama, LSU, UGA, and Florida. Kids see those teams on TV and want to play against them, not Ohio State, Michaigan, and Wisconsin.

Second, yes Steve Spurrier has propelled USC to all new levels in recent years, and without him it's doubtful they would accomplish what they are doing now. But at the time he was hired, the SEC had not started the current MNC streak. Notice that since then, USC is doing things never seen before at South Carolina. Everything has become elevated now. Any SEC coach who recruits above average and coaches above average has a real shot at 9 or 10 wins. Franklin at Vanderbuilt is using that formula to elevate that program. Petrino at Arkansas, same deal. And similarly, whatever North Carolina school gets into the SEC will get most of the quality local North Carolina talent. And if they have a good coach, 9 or 10 wins can become the norm as it has for Spurrier's teams. NCST will be the recipient of that edge if UNC goes BIG10, and it will happen very quickly.

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--- DeadeyeDirk wrote:


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--- Carolina2009 wrote:

I understand the concern, as there is a possibility of State's team getting a boost from SEC membership, but I'm not nearly as worried as many people on IC. Kentucky, for example, isn't exactly a football powerhouse. And South Carolina barely had any noteworthy seasons for the 20 years before Steve Spurrier took over--and there aren't exactly a lot of Steve Spurriers out there. Other things would definitely have to fall into place for State to truly rise in the football ranks. Being in the SEC would make that easier on them, but SEC membership alone wouldn't tip the state in their favor, in my opinion.

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Your examples are not an apples-to-apples comparison with UNC.

First, Kentucky is a basketball first program located in a state that is depleted in football talent. They literally have to go out of state for the vast majority of top-self football recruits. The same holds true for UL, and if (when) Strong leaves they'll have a hard time replicating his success. North Carolina produces a fair share of football talent, and any team that becomes predomiant within the State will gain excellent local talent. Part of the problem for all NC universities is that the local talent is split five ways when you include ECU. None can get a leg up on the others, or when they do they can't maintain it. Any one school going into the SEC will have a built in recruiting advantage over the other four simply by associating with Bama, LSU, UGA, and Florida. Kids see those teams on TV and want to play against them, not Ohio State, Michaigan, and Wisconsin.

Second, yes Steve Spurrier has propelled USC to all new levels in recent years, and without him it's doubtful they would accomplish what they are doing now. But at the time he was hired, the SEC had not started the current MNC streak. Notice that since then, USC is doing things never seen before at South Carolina. Everything has become elevated now. Any SEC coach who recruits above average and coaches above average has a real shot at 9 or 10 wins. Franklin at Vanderbuilt is using that formula to elevate that program. Petrino at Arkansas, same deal. And similarly, whatever North Carolina school gets into the SEC will get most of the quality local North Carolina talent. And if they have a good coach, 9 or 10 wins can become the norm as it has for Spurrier's teams. NCST will be the recipient of that edge if UNC goes BIG10, and it will happen very quickly.

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Vanderbilt isn't exactly setting the NCAA on fire. Their best win this year was against NC State. They lost every game they played against a good team--plus Northwestern. Their FBS victories came over teams with a combined record of 35-63, winning percentage of 0.357. They literally played every bad team in the SEC.

And Arkansas had a nice 4-8 season this year.

The SEC is the best football conference right now, but it won't last forever. And the teams that are truly and consistently great--Alabama, LSU, Florida, and Georgia--are powerhouse programs with long traditions.

If we look at the SEC schools who actually have competition from other conferences in their state--Florida (FSU and Miami), Georgia (Georgia Tech), South Carolina (Clemson), and Texas A&M (Texas)--those other schools are doing just fine (Miami having other problems at the moment). If we take into consideration the fact that Georgia Tech has never really been up to par with Georgia, and that South Carolina wouldn't be anything right now without Spurrier, it becomes pretty clear that NC State jumping to the SEC would not mean the demise of UNC's prominence in the state, especially considering UNC's brand and flagship status. Other factors would play a larger role than conference affiliation--especially if UNC were in the Big Ten, playing teams like Ohio State and Michigan.

Would the SEC help State? Absolutely. But being in the Big Ten would help us, too, and there's just too many other things that have to happen to determine which team would be more prominent.

The concern is valid. I just don't know if it can be determinative.