---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- WinchesterBUCK wrote:

90% of tOSU Insider stuff that was posted today I have been stating on this board for weeks. Nothing really new.

Our Insider has finally come around to saying FSU is in play.

He also said UNC, UVA, GT to the B1G with VT & NC State to the SEC. Which is nothing new to report. He never stated why though. My contact at tOSU told me that both state legislatures, NC & VA, will not allow schools to split unless they find a viable home. B1G will not take VT or NC State. SEC wants in both states but will not take all 4 schools. So basically, the two conferences have comprised in how they both will gain entrance into these two new states.

With all the info floating around right now, I would say the 6 expansion candidates are UVA, UNC, GT, FSU, ND, and BC. I would still say Texas will be approached for the #20 spot again, but will probably say 'no'. Duke still has a fighting chance.

Oh, tOSU Insider did mention ND has come to realize a conference is in its future and its probably the B1G.

Next several weeks will be interesting.

---------------------------------------------

I can't imagine the Big Ten taking BC unless it was necessary to convince Notre Dame. The conference would also have to waive the contiguous state bylaw.

If Duke didn't go to the Big Ten, though, would the SEC pass over State for Duke? Wouldn't that be something...

---------------------------------------------

In Delany's mind BC would be contiguous to the NYC market. Both markets touch.

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--- WinchesterBUCK wrote:


In Delany's mind BC would be contiguous to the NYC market. Both markets touch.

---------------------------------------------

But New Jersey doesn't border Massachusetts. Does the bylaw, which is binding unless a vote of the members chooses to waive it, state contiguous states or contiguous markets?

I think you're underselling what Univ of Virginia has to offer. Not only being arguably the premier public univ in the country, they also have athletic programs that are top notch. Scott stadium is an amazing venue to visit. The JPJ Arena in only 5 years old for bball, and they have solid baseball and lacrosse programs.

Again I think where ever the schools ultimately line up , UNC and UVa should be bound at the hip. We just need to hope UNC is driving the realignment cart so the SEC would be more likely destination if/when the ACC dissolves.

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--- rock06 wrote:

Any Heel who cares about Duke, UVa, the ACC, you're better than that

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

If Duke didn't go to the Big Ten, though, would the SEC pass over State for Duke? Wouldn't that be something...

---------------------------------------------

Great question Carolina2009. Personally I think the answer is "no". Here's why: Duke's value to the SEC is only in tandem with UNC. Culturally, Duke is about as opposite from the SEC as any university in the ACC. It's small, basketball oriented, and perceives itself as nearly an Ivy League calibre university. It's football credentials are so limited, it would be a liability to the SEC. There's really nothing in common except geography.

NCST on the other hand, even though it's a distant second to UNC, it is second. The NCST culture enjoys tailgating, they have a larger stadium (57 k), and academically are in line with universities already present in the SEC. It's a large student body and they will fill their stadium when Bama, LSU, or Florida roll into town. Duke may or may not do that, but Wallace Wade is so tiny it wouldn't matter.

---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- WinchesterBUCK wrote:


In Delany's mind BC would be contiguous to the NYC market. Both markets touch.

---------------------------------------------

But New Jersey doesn't border Massachusetts. Does the bylaw, which is binding unless a vote of the members chooses to waive it, state contiguous states or contiguous markets?

---------------------------------------------


I think that is a 'want', not sure it is even in the by-laws.

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--- DeadeyeDirk wrote:


---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

If Duke didn't go to the Big Ten, though, would the SEC pass over State for Duke? Wouldn't that be something...

---------------------------------------------

Great question Carolina2009. Personally I think the answer is "no". Here's why: Duke's value to the SEC is only in tandem with UNC. Culturally, Duke is about as opposite from the SEC as any university in the ACC. It's small, basketball oriented, and perceives itself as nearly an Ivy League calibre university. It's football credentials are so limited, it would be a liability to the SEC. There's really nothing in common except geography.

NCST on the other hand, even though it's a distant second to UNC, it is second. The NCST culture enjoys tailgating, they have a larger stadium (57 k), and academically are in line with universities already present in the SEC. It's a large student body and they will fill their stadium when Bama, LSU, or Florida roll into town. Duke may or may not do that, but Wallace Wade is so tiny it wouldn't matter.

---------------------------------------------

VT and NC State to the SEC, its almost a done deal. Pretty much agreed upon.

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--- rock06 wrote:

I agree with everything everyone says about who the SEC wants

What I'm saying is if I'm a Heel I'm saying, "just give me the SEC"

Any Heel who cares about Duke, UVa, the ACC, you're better than that

But this coming from someone at A&M who was saying, "screw Baylor, Texas, TxTech & the Big12" just a year & a half ago....

At the same time I'm not factoring in anyone who's put their heart into the ACC the way I have with the SEC now, I never had my heart in the Big12 so it was easy.

I'd take UNC/UVa, UNC/Duke or UNC/VaTech in a heartbeat, as long as UNC is in there

---------------------------------------------

rock, there are thousands of Carolina who have been saying 'give me the SEC' all along. If you've read our board all along, you know thats true.

I am to the point that I feel the same way about the rest of the ACC...the other NC schools in particular...that you felt about the rest of the Big 12. I would bring UVA with us, because they are our oldest rivals, and, I'd like to preserve it.

You are right, we have put our heart into the ACC for 60+ years. And, we will be here unless it becomes clear its not viable as a major conference anymore (and, it WILL be viable). While it'd certainly be hard to see it end, I would put my heart into the SEC if thats where we end up. All that said, our first choice is to see the ACC survive in its current form, and, thrive again. It can and will happen. I am an optimist. :)

The SEC would be cool, because I'd have the absolute best reason to go to Kyle Field for a game again.

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--- WesternStormer wrote:

Respectfully, Dirk, I have not read anything that definitively backs up your assertion that UNC-UVA WANT the B10.

Do you happen to have a link showing what you say is true?

---------------------------------------------

Well, to be honest there are no links to anything other than rumors, nothing in the media. So to be fair I should state that it is my opinion to clear up any confusion about that assertion.

However, it is not difficult to see how UVA and UNC would both prefer the BIG10. More academic prestige, more research dollars, excellent history and tradition, and the possibility of other ACC schools joining down the road to keep some key rivalries in tact.

From a state level political point of view (should the ACC fail), getting one state school in the BIG10, and another state school in the SEC is a home run. Politicians don't want anyone left behind no matter how much the students hate their rivals. If UNC and UVA were to go SEC, the best NCST could hope for is the BIG12, and that might not happen given that Duke is out there. It's too precarious, the politicians will sign off on UNC and UVA to the BIG10 and VT and NCST to the SEC. In their view, everyone wins with that scenario.

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--- WinchesterBUCK wrote:



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--- DeadeyeDirk wrote:


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--- Carolina2009 wrote:

If Duke didn't go to the Big Ten, though, would the SEC pass over State for Duke? Wouldn't that be something...

---------------------------------------------

Great question Carolina2009. Personally I think the answer is "no". Here's why: Duke's value to the SEC is only in tandem with UNC. Culturally, Duke is about as opposite from the SEC as any university in the ACC. It's small, basketball oriented, and perceives itself as nearly an Ivy League calibre university. It's football credentials are so limited, it would be a liability to the SEC. There's really nothing in common except geography.

NCST on the other hand, even though it's a distant second to UNC, it is second. The NCST culture enjoys tailgating, they have a larger stadium (57 k), and academically are in line with universities already present in the SEC. It's a large student body and they will fill their stadium when Bama, LSU, or Florida roll into town. Duke may or may not do that, but Wallace Wade is so tiny it wouldn't matter.

---------------------------------------------

VT and NC State to the SEC, its almost a done deal. Pretty much agreed upon.

---------------------------------------------

I am starting to think you are a wuffie troll.

What does southern mean? You say yall....act like the civil war isnt over? Or you like fried foods?

I disagree... the south and midwest are very conservative culturally....the north is a bit more cosmopolitan.....im a buckeye that moved to tn and didnt see much difference....you had conservatives and liberals in both places....but a higher percentage of conservatives in tn

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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

No, I actually don't believe that Duke will go to the SEC with UNC or anybody else.

I honestly don't know what UNC's administration will do here. I really don't. But I think that UNC would be much more likely to go to the SEC in tandem with UVA than with any other school.

It is anecdotal to be sure, but in perusing UNC's boards and even UVA's boards, it does not appear that the fanbases of either school are excited about the B1G. Most seem to have expressed a preference for the SEC if the choice is between the two. Does that mean anything? I don't know.

Both schools are probably less Southern than they used to be. So what? They are both still more Southern than any school in the B1G.


---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

I honestly think that UNC, Duke, and UVa want to stick together (tradition, geography, academics, non-revenue sports). Right now, it sounds like only the ACC and the Big Ten are offering that.



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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

If any ACC schools are going to the B1G, I can see GT and Duke going there.

---------------------------------------------

You hope that because you don't think Duke would go with UNC to the SEC, meaning UNC is less likely to go. But why wouldn't UVa go to the Big Ten? UVa more and more associates with DC. A move to the SEC would be a move away, while a move to the Big Ten is a move toward it.

I don't think UVa--or UNC for that matter--are as (deep) Southern as many people on this board would like to believe.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

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--- DeadeyeDirk wrote:


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--- WesternStormer wrote:

Respectfully, Dirk, I have not read anything that definitively backs up your assertion that UNC-UVA WANT the B10.

Do you happen to have a link showing what you say is true?

---------------------------------------------

Well, to be honest there are no links to anything other than rumors, nothing in the media. So to be fair I should state that it is my opinion to clear up any confusion about that assertion.

However, it is not difficult to see how UVA and UNC would both prefer the BIG10. More academic prestige, more research dollars, excellent history and tradition, and the possibility of other ACC schools joining down the road to keep some key rivalries in tact.

From a state level political point of view (should the ACC fail), getting one state school in the BIG10, and another state school in the SEC is a home run. Politicians don't want anyone left behind no matter how much the students hate their rivals. If UNC and UVA were to go SEC, the best NCST could hope for is the BIG12, and that might not happen given that Duke is out there. It's too precarious, the politicians will sign off on UNC and UVA to the BIG10 and VT and NCST to the SEC. In their view, everyone wins with that scenario.

---------------------------------------------

No worries about the link. Just curious is all.

What you say about how both schools would be attracted to the B10 is 100 percent true.

There has been little to no chatter in the NC media about where Carolina and State MIGHT end up, should the ACC implode (and it isn't). I find it funny OSU insiders would know about the future of this state's AQ universities than those whose interests are of more concern.

You can believe on thing...after how UNC has been treated by State fans over the past two years, it would not surprise me one bit to see UNC not really be all that cooperative, where NCSU is concerned.

I've lived in both the south & Midwest as well & there's a definite difference

But it's a general mindset more than one specific, tangible thing


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--- buckeye4573 wrote:

What does southern mean? You say yall....act like the civil war isnt over? Or you like fried foods?

I disagree... the south and midwest are very conservative culturally....the north is a bit more cosmopolitan.....im a buckeye that moved to tn and didnt see much difference....you had conservatives and liberals in both places....but a higher percentage of conservatives in tn

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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

No, I actually don't believe that Duke will go to the SEC with UNC or anybody else.

I honestly don't know what UNC's administration will do here. I really don't. But I think that UNC would be much more likely to go to the SEC in tandem with UVA than with any other school.

It is anecdotal to be sure, but in perusing UNC's boards and even UVA's boards, it does not appear that the fanbases of either school are excited about the B1G. Most seem to have expressed a preference for the SEC if the choice is between the two. Does that mean anything? I don't know.

Both schools are probably less Southern than they used to be. So what? They are both still more Southern than any school in the B1G.


---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

I honestly think that UNC, Duke, and UVa want to stick together (tradition, geography, academics, non-revenue sports). Right now, it sounds like only the ACC and the Big Ten are offering that.



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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

If any ACC schools are going to the B1G, I can see GT and Duke going there.

---------------------------------------------

You hope that because you don't think Duke would go with UNC to the SEC, meaning UNC is less likely to go. But why wouldn't UVa go to the Big Ten? UVa more and more associates with DC. A move to the SEC would be a move away, while a move to the Big Ten is a move toward it.

I don't think UVa--or UNC for that matter--are as (deep) Southern as many people on this board would like to believe.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

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The one thing I do worry about with UNC & the B1G is academics & basketball.

Which the B1G can sell & sell well

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--- WesternStormer wrote:

There has been little to no chatter in the NC media about where Carolina and State MIGHT end up, should the ACC implode (and it isn't). I find it funny OSU insiders would know about the future of this state's AQ universities than those whose interests are of more concern.


---------------------------------------------

You're not going to hear anything in the media. Maryland came out of nowhere, up until about 2 or 3 days before it happened. I think it was in the Washington Post article where it was reported that Delany made Maryland agree to confidentiality to even discuss the move.

Just as I state there are no links, I stumble across one from a semi-credible source:

m.mrsec.com/2013/01/big-bang-t...erences-part-4/


Here are a couple of key quotes:

" As we’ve written since last month, there’s a strong belief that Georgia Tech and Virginia are just waiting to see what Maryland has to pay as an exit fee before they follow the Terps northward. People in the business of media rights deals believe Virginia and Tech are going to move. Sources tell us some ACC coaches are worried those two will leave. And two people we’ve spoken to inside SEC athletic departments have told us they’ve heard and believe those rumors as well. But there’s also a feeling among some that Virginia and North Carolina are the real targets… or that Delany might grab UVA, Tech, UNC and Duke on his way to 18."

"Talk to people around the SEC and you’ll hear that Slive would love to snag either North Carolina and Duke or North Carolina and Virginia. One move would bring two massive sports brands into the SEC and improve the league’s basketball reputation immediately. The other move would allow the SEC to put down markers in two more states. Virginia Tech always gets a mention when SEC expansion is kicked around and we’ve had multiple people tell us that they believe the Hokies will one day land in the Southeastern Conference."


Here is my opinion on the future moves if the ACC universities begin to exit:

A) The BIG10 goes to 20
1) UNC
2) UVA
3) GT
4) Duke/FSU
5) Notre Dame (if they are willing)
6) Duke/FSU, BC, Uconn

B) SEC goes to 16
1) VT
2) NCST

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--- rock06 wrote:

The one thing I do worry about with UNC & the B1G is academics & basketball.

Which the B1G can sell & sell well

---------------------------------------------

And lacrosse and soccer.

Big Ten lacrosse teams: Maryland, Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Rutgers

SEC lacrosse teams:

By the way, lacrosse is HUGE at UVa. That factor alone may keep UVa out of the SEC.

You are probably right about UVA and lacrosse. If I was Slive, I'd get a few universities to start some lacrosse specifically for UVA's liking.

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:



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--- rock06 wrote:

The one thing I do worry about with UNC & the B1G is academics & basketball.

Which the B1G can sell & sell well

---------------------------------------------

And lacrosse and soccer.

Big Ten lacrosse teams: Maryland, Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Rutgers

SEC lacrosse teams:

By the way, lacrosse is HUGE at UVa. That factor alone may keep UVa out of the SEC.

---------------------------------------------

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--- WinchesterBUCK wrote:

Oh, tOSU Insider did mention ND has come to realize a conference is in its future and its probably the B1G.

---------------------------------------------

This makes absolutely no sense. If ND realizes a conference is in its future then the smart move is to join the ACC full time. They clearly don't want the B10 & could instantly stabilize the ACC. ND joining full time would also put the ACC ahead of the B12.

Sounds like nothing but speculation & wishful thinking on the part of OSU insiders.

I can honestly say that if UNC to the Big10 comes to pass then my interest & passion for UNC sports will be greatly diminished. It breaks my heart to even type that, but it's true. There's nobody in the B10 that I'm even remotely interested in playing except for maybe Michigan & OSU, but that's a novelty that would wear off quickly.

On the other hand, I can think of at least 6 or 7 SEC teams I'd be much more excited to play than Michigan or OSU.

My preference is for a stable & prosperous ACC. IF that's not possible then SEC all the way. Beyond that, nothing. I'd almost rather quit watching than follow UNC in the B10.

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--- WinchesterBUCK wrote:



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--- DeadeyeDirk wrote:


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--- Carolina2009 wrote:

If Duke didn't go to the Big Ten, though, would the SEC pass over State for Duke? Wouldn't that be something...

---------------------------------------------

Great question Carolina2009. Personally I think the answer is "no". Here's why: Duke's value to the SEC is only in tandem with UNC. Culturally, Duke is about as opposite from the SEC as any university in the ACC. It's small, basketball oriented, and perceives itself as nearly an Ivy League calibre university. It's football credentials are so limited, it would be a liability to the SEC. There's really nothing in common except geography.

NCST on the other hand, even though it's a distant second to UNC, it is second. The NCST culture enjoys tailgating, they have a larger stadium (57 k), and academically are in line with universities already present in the SEC. It's a large student body and they will fill their stadium when Bama, LSU, or Florida roll into town. Duke may or may not do that, but Wallace Wade is so tiny it wouldn't matter.

---------------------------------------------

VT and NC State to the SEC, its almost a done deal. Pretty much agreed upon.

---------------------------------------------

Would you be willing to bet $1000? The SEC will not ever take ncsu. It would degrade athletics and more importantly to the new SEC academics. VT would only be a possibility if it came with us(UNC), Go back to West Virginia and burn some furniture.

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--- Steve Dallas wrote:

I can honestly say that if UNC to the Big10 comes to pass then my interest & passion for UNC sports will be greatly diminished. It breaks my heart to even type that, but it's true.

---------------------------------------------

UNC isn't going to make any move that isn't supported by our big-time donors. UNC students and alumni will continue to support the program regardless. The children of alumni will still grow up UNC fans. And our national appeal may actually get stronger among unaffiliated persons from a move to a conference with a larger footprint. So if you want out, I don't think we'll miss ya.

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:



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--- Steve Dallas wrote:

I can honestly say that if UNC to the Big10 comes to pass then my interest & passion for UNC sports will be greatly diminished. It breaks my heart to even type that, but it's true.

---------------------------------------------

UNC isn't going to make any move that isn't supported by our big-time donors. UNC students and alumni will continue to support the program regardless. The children of alumni will still grow up UNC fans. And our national appeal may actually get stronger among unaffiliated persons from a move to a conference with a larger footprint. So if you want out, I don't think we'll miss ya.

---------------------------------------------

What?! I won't be missed?! But that's the only reason I'm a fan!! I want people to notice me!!

First, you make many assumptions, none of which you can prove. So please do spare me your pie in the sky nonsense about UNC's bright future in the Big10.

Second, I'm not sure whether 2009 represents the year you graduated or the year you were born. Either way you display a youthful naivete regarding the ramifications of changing conference affiliation. Of course UNC students & alumni will support the team. I never implied otherwise. What I am fearful of, though, is that the level of support will change over time if UNC to the Big10 happens. You can spin it however you want, but there's a very real risk that enthusiasm will wane if UNC ends up in a midwestern conference populated by teams that the average Carolina fan does not care about. The number of fans may remain constant, but tepid support is most certainly not the same as rabid support. I've expressed my feelings on this & I can guarantee you I'm not alone. Alienating existing fans who are North Carolina natives in the hopes that you can create new fans in Indiana or Wisconsin or Iowa is simply foolish thinking.

Finally, perhaps you should reconsider your willingness to jettison older fans who have supported UNC sports longer than you've been alive (again, assuming you either graduated or were born in 2009). You might find that we're a significant % of the fanbase & that we do, in fact, matter.

I love when the "insiders" from the Big Ten know what Notre Dame "has come to realize".

Everything in the world has already been decided. Now it's up to us to try and get the "real story" from those "in the know".

LOL

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--- WinchesterBUCK wrote:



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--- Carolina2009 wrote:



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--- WinchesterBUCK wrote:

90% of tOSU Insider stuff that was posted today I have been stating on this board for weeks. Nothing really new.

Our Insider has finally come around to saying FSU is in play.

He also said UNC, UVA, GT to the B1G with VT & NC State to the SEC. Which is nothing new to report. He never stated why though. My contact at tOSU told me that both state legislatures, NC & VA, will not allow schools to split unless they find a viable home. B1G will not take VT or NC State. SEC wants in both states but will not take all 4 schools. So basically, the two conferences have comprised in how they both will gain entrance into these two new states.

With all the info floating around right now, I would say the 6 expansion candidates are UVA, UNC, GT, FSU, ND, and BC. I would still say Texas will be approached for the #20 spot again, but will probably say 'no'. Duke still has a fighting chance.

Oh, tOSU Insider did mention ND has come to realize a conference is in its future and its probably the B1G.

Next several weeks will be interesting.

---------------------------------------------

I can't imagine the Big Ten taking BC unless it was necessary to convince Notre Dame. The conference would also have to waive the contiguous state bylaw.

If Duke didn't go to the Big Ten, though, would the SEC pass over State for Duke? Wouldn't that be something...

---------------------------------------------

In Delany's mind BC would be contiguous to the NYC market. Both markets touch.

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--- Steve Dallas wrote:

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--- WinchesterBUCK wrote:

Oh, tOSU Insider did mention ND has come to realize a conference is in its future and its probably the B1G.

---------------------------------------------

This makes absolutely no sense. If ND realizes a conference is in its future then the smart move is to join the ACC full time. They clearly don't want the B10 & could instantly stabilize the ACC. ND joining full time would also put the ACC ahead of the B12.

Sounds like nothing but speculation & wishful thinking on the part of OSU insiders.

I can honestly say that if UNC to the Big10 comes to pass then my interest & passion for UNC sports will be greatly diminished. It breaks my heart to even type that, but it's true. There's nobody in the B10 that I'm even remotely interested in playing except for maybe Michigan & OSU, but that's a novelty that would wear off quickly.

On the other hand, I can think of at least 6 or 7 SEC teams I'd be much more excited to play than Michigan or OSU.

My preference is for a stable & prosperous ACC. IF that's not possible then SEC all the way. Beyond that, nothing. I'd almost rather quit watching than follow UNC in the B10.

---------------------------------------------
I promise you this is not wishful thinking by our insiders.This info comes from a special guest through one of our insiders. Maybe twice a year or when something is going on at tOSU or BIG. Have any of NC fans heard 1 thing about a move to the SEC except wishful thinking amongst the fans? Its not in the works. Slive and Delaney our spooning on this. There not competing against each other. They our deciding...

So have I. To believe that Columbus, Ohio or Milwaukee, Wisconsin are similar places to Charleston, SC or Jackson, Mississippi is way off the mark. Probably comes from one of those Ohio couples you find at North Myrtle entering a shag dancing contest and doing some kind of
improvised watusi.

The midwest is friendly; the South is polite. The midwest is overbearingly egalitarian; the South has a natural aristocratic sense.

"North, east and west are directions; the South is a place!"
---------------------------------------------
--- rock06 wrote:




I've lived in both the south & Midwest as well & there's a definite difference

But it's a general mindset more than one specific, tangible thing


---------------------------------------------
--- buckeye4573 wrote:

What does southern mean? You say yall....act like the civil war isnt over? Or you like fried foods?

I disagree... the south and midwest are very conservative culturally....the north is a bit more cosmopolitan.....im a buckeye that moved to tn and didnt see much difference....you had conservatives and liberals in both places....but a higher percentage of conservatives in tn

---------------------------------------------
--- BamainCarolina wrote:

No, I actually don't believe that Duke will go to the SEC with UNC or anybody else.

I honestly don't know what UNC's administration will do here. I really don't. But I think that UNC would be much more likely to go to the SEC in tandem with UVA than with any other school.

It is anecdotal to be sure, but in perusing UNC's boards and even UVA's boards, it does not appear that the fanbases of either school are excited about the B1G. Most seem to have expressed a preference for the SEC if the choice is between the two. Does that mean anything? I don't know.

Both schools are probably less Southern than they used to be. So what? They are both still more Southern than any school in the B1G.


---------------------------------------------
--- Carolina2009 wrote:

I honestly think that UNC, Duke, and UVa want to stick together (tradition, geography, academics, non-revenue sports). Right now, it sounds like only the ACC and the Big Ten are offering that.



---------------------------------------------
--- BamainCarolina wrote:

If any ACC schools are going to the B1G, I can see GT and Duke going there.

---------------------------------------------

You hope that because you don't think Duke would go with UNC to the SEC, meaning UNC is less likely to go. But why wouldn't UVa go to the Big Ten? UVa more and more associates with DC. A move to the SEC would be a move away, while a move to the Big Ten is a move toward it.

I don't think UVa--or UNC for that matter--are as (deep) Southern as many people on this board would like to believe.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

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--- MDawg198 wrote:



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--- therabidrev wrote:



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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

I wouldn't negate the UVA/UNC connection just yet. For one, I have an extremely difficult time of seeing the PTB at Duke willingly going to the SEC. Think about that for a second. Duke culturally is about the most northern-oriented school in the entire South. Much of their alumni base is in the Northeast and their faculty and administration fancy themselves as semi-Ivy League.

Honestly, I cannot see a school like Duke wanting to put forth the resources needed to be competitive in the SEC. They have barely been competitive in the ACC.

A move to the SEC moves Duke away from its Northeastern cultural base in a big way.

There is no way that Duke University will commit to becoming competitive in football in the SEC. No way, no how.

UVA is the only partner for UNC that makes sense from UNC's perspective. They are the sole partner that may make a move to the SEC palatable for the PTB at UNC. Likewise, UNC is UVA's sole partner that would make an SEC move palatable for them. UVA has the money, the facilities, and I believe the will to be competitive at football. UVA and UNC together to the SEC upgrades the SEC's academic profile while adding two large Southern states and good, but not great, football programs that have POTENTIAL.

Of all of the ACC schools south of Maryland, Duke is the worst cultural fit for the SEC in too many ways to count.

I can see the SEC perhaps coveting Duke for their brand name and their academics. But I cannot see Duke willingly moving to the SEC.

If any ACC schools are going to the B1G, I can see GT and Duke going there.

Answer me this question - who on this board can honestly say that they believe that Duke University has the will to make the commitment to big time football necessary to simply be competitive in the SEC?

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Vandy did.

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It only took them how many years?

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Many, but somebody made an administrative decision to put money into the football program, and it's paying off. dook has a much better ancient football history than Vandy.

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--- phatassjungle wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- Steve Dallas wrote:

---------------------------------------------
--- WinchesterBUCK wrote:

Oh, tOSU Insider did mention ND has come to realize a conference is in its future and its probably the B1G.

---------------------------------------------

This makes absolutely no sense. If ND realizes a conference is in its future then the smart move is to join the ACC full time. They clearly don't want the B10 & could instantly stabilize the ACC. ND joining full time would also put the ACC ahead of the B12.

Sounds like nothing but speculation & wishful thinking on the part of OSU insiders.

I can honestly say that if UNC to the Big10 comes to pass then my interest & passion for UNC sports will be greatly diminished. It breaks my heart to even type that, but it's true. There's nobody in the B10 that I'm even remotely interested in playing except for maybe Michigan & OSU, but that's a novelty that would wear off quickly.

On the other hand, I can think of at least 6 or 7 SEC teams I'd be much more excited to play than Michigan or OSU.

My preference is for a stable & prosperous ACC. IF that's not possible then SEC all the way. Beyond that, nothing. I'd almost rather quit watching than follow UNC in the B10.

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I promise you this is not wishful thinking by our insiders.This info comes from a special guest through one of our insiders. Maybe twice a year or when something is going on at tOSU or BIG. Have any of NC fans heard 1 thing about a move to the SEC except wishful thinking amongst the fans? Its not in the works. Slive and Delaney our spooning on this. There not competing against each other. They our deciding...

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ND has said in the past that they would always survey the landscape and that staying independent is their first choice. If it became apparent, they would join a conference. Behind closed doors, it's becoming apparent.

No network is willing to pay the ACC more money. ESPN could have easily saved the ACC by offering it more money, and it chose not to. No network is stepping up to help the ACC. ESPN and FOX both stepped up to save the Big12.

Just remember the B1G will not take VT or NC State. SEC and B1G want in NC and Virginia. Both state legislatures are ok if schools split but both must end up in stable conferences. None of the 4 schools are major national football grabs. SEC starts its network in 2014. SEC is fine with VT and NC State. SEC is not willing to take all 4 schools, it would be a huge money loser. This is how the pieces come together to form the puzzle. SEC and B1G have compromised to this solution. It's business. I'll mention again, Delany is a UNC grad.

I have too and i have family in ms and la.....its not different....the east and ne is different....but thats not the midwest....... again im not sure what people mean in terms of general mindset....how so?

A couple of other things....noone runs the b10......ask anyone....noone does....all schools are equal....and alot of the rwason si...is its not just about athletics....which is why the administration of any school would pick the b10 over every conference except the ivy....which is an athletic conference as well...but its obviously much more than that....and so is the b10.

As for not fitting in....i dont buy that...unc, ga tech, and uva are much more like the b10 than the sec....they realize football is second to academics. Texas is the same way...the academics would join in seconds.....but the athletics dept wont for various reason....even notre dame would have joined if the academics had there way...but give up on notre dame joining...its not gonna happen unless they absolutely have to.


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--- rock06 wrote:



I've lived in both the south & Midwest as well & there's a definite difference

But it's a general mindset more than one specific, tangible thing


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--- buckeye4573 wrote:

What does southern mean? You say yall....act like the civil war isnt over? Or you like fried foods?

I disagree... the south and midwest are very conservative culturally....the north is a bit more cosmopolitan.....im a buckeye that moved to tn and didnt see much difference....you had conservatives and liberals in both places....but a higher percentage of conservatives in tn

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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

No, I actually don't believe that Duke will go to the SEC with UNC or anybody else.

I honestly don't know what UNC's administration will do here. I really don't. But I think that UNC would be much more likely to go to the SEC in tandem with UVA than with any other school.

It is anecdotal to be sure, but in perusing UNC's boards and even UVA's boards, it does not appear that the fanbases of either school are excited about the B1G. Most seem to have expressed a preference for the SEC if the choice is between the two. Does that mean anything? I don't know.

Both schools are probably less Southern than they used to be. So what? They are both still more Southern than any school in the B1G.


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--- Carolina2009 wrote:

I honestly think that UNC, Duke, and UVa want to stick together (tradition, geography, academics, non-revenue sports). Right now, it sounds like only the ACC and the Big Ten are offering that.



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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

If any ACC schools are going to the B1G, I can see GT and Duke going there.

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You hope that because you don't think Duke would go with UNC to the SEC, meaning UNC is less likely to go. But why wouldn't UVa go to the Big Ten? UVa more and more associates with DC. A move to the SEC would be a move away, while a move to the Big Ten is a move toward it.

I don't think UVa--or UNC for that matter--are as (deep) Southern as many people on this board would like to believe.

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There are a lot of folks in the midwest who think of Ohio as "back east". Cities like Cleveland are probably as much NE as midwest (I worked for WKYC-TV)

Please consider places like Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota when thinking midwest.

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--- buckeye4573 wrote:

I have too and i have family in ms and la.....its not different....the east and ne is different....but thats not the midwest....... again im not sure what people mean in terms of general mindset....how so?

A couple of other things....noone runs the b10......ask anyone....noone does....all schools are equal....and alot of the rwason si...is its not just about athletics....which is why the administration of any school would pick the b10 over every conference except the ivy....which is an athletic conference as well...but its obviously much more than that....and so is the b10.

As for not fitting in....i dont buy that...unc, ga tech, and uva are much more like the b10 than the sec....they realize football is second to academics. Texas is the same way...the academics would join in seconds.....but the athletics dept wont for various reason....even notre dame would have joined if the academics had there way...but give up on notre dame joining...its not gonna happen unless they absolutely have to.


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--- rock06 wrote:



I've lived in both the south & Midwest as well & there's a definite difference

But it's a general mindset more than one specific, tangible thing


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--- buckeye4573 wrote:

What does southern mean? You say yall....act like the civil war isnt over? Or you like fried foods?

I disagree... the south and midwest are very conservative culturally....the north is a bit more cosmopolitan.....im a buckeye that moved to tn and didnt see much difference....you had conservatives and liberals in both places....but a higher percentage of conservatives in tn

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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

No, I actually don't believe that Duke will go to the SEC with UNC or anybody else.

I honestly don't know what UNC's administration will do here. I really don't. But I think that UNC would be much more likely to go to the SEC in tandem with UVA than with any other school.

It is anecdotal to be sure, but in perusing UNC's boards and even UVA's boards, it does not appear that the fanbases of either school are excited about the B1G. Most seem to have expressed a preference for the SEC if the choice is between the two. Does that mean anything? I don't know.

Both schools are probably less Southern than they used to be. So what? They are both still more Southern than any school in the B1G.


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--- Carolina2009 wrote:

I honestly think that UNC, Duke, and UVa want to stick together (tradition, geography, academics, non-revenue sports). Right now, it sounds like only the ACC and the Big Ten are offering that.



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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

If any ACC schools are going to the B1G, I can see GT and Duke going there.

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You hope that because you don't think Duke would go with UNC to the SEC, meaning UNC is less likely to go. But why wouldn't UVa go to the Big Ten? UVa more and more associates with DC. A move to the SEC would be a move away, while a move to the Big Ten is a move toward it.

I don't think UVa--or UNC for that matter--are as (deep) Southern as many people on this board would like to believe.

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Wow, you are so correct on Cleveland (NE Ohio) being very similar to the east coast. It is very ethnic and has an east coast feel.

Columbus/Cincy are much more midwest.

Cleveland and Toledo are also rust belt, blue collar. Columbus and Cincy are white collar.

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--- ChancellorHouse wrote:

There are a lot of folks in the midwest who think of Ohio as "back east". Cities like Cleveland are probably as much NE as midwest (I worked for WKYC-TV)

Please consider places like Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota when thinking midwest.

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--- buckeye4573 wrote:

I have too and i have family in ms and la.....its not different....the east and ne is different....but thats not the midwest....... again im not sure what people mean in terms of general mindset....how so?

A couple of other things....noone runs the b10......ask anyone....noone does....all schools are equal....and alot of the rwason si...is its not just about athletics....which is why the administration of any school would pick the b10 over every conference except the ivy....which is an athletic conference as well...but its obviously much more than that....and so is the b10.

As for not fitting in....i dont buy that...unc, ga tech, and uva are much more like the b10 than the sec....they realize football is second to academics. Texas is the same way...the academics would join in seconds.....but the athletics dept wont for various reason....even notre dame would have joined if the academics had there way...but give up on notre dame joining...its not gonna happen unless they absolutely have to.


---------------------------------------------
--- rock06 wrote:



I've lived in both the south & Midwest as well & there's a definite difference

But it's a general mindset more than one specific, tangible thing


---------------------------------------------
--- buckeye4573 wrote:

What does southern mean? You say yall....act like the civil war isnt over? Or you like fried foods?

I disagree... the south and midwest are very conservative culturally....the north is a bit more cosmopolitan.....im a buckeye that moved to tn and didnt see much difference....you had conservatives and liberals in both places....but a higher percentage of conservatives in tn

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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

No, I actually don't believe that Duke will go to the SEC with UNC or anybody else.

I honestly don't know what UNC's administration will do here. I really don't. But I think that UNC would be much more likely to go to the SEC in tandem with UVA than with any other school.

It is anecdotal to be sure, but in perusing UNC's boards and even UVA's boards, it does not appear that the fanbases of either school are excited about the B1G. Most seem to have expressed a preference for the SEC if the choice is between the two. Does that mean anything? I don't know.

Both schools are probably less Southern than they used to be. So what? They are both still more Southern than any school in the B1G.


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--- Carolina2009 wrote:

I honestly think that UNC, Duke, and UVa want to stick together (tradition, geography, academics, non-revenue sports). Right now, it sounds like only the ACC and the Big Ten are offering that.



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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

If any ACC schools are going to the B1G, I can see GT and Duke going there.

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You hope that because you don't think Duke would go with UNC to the SEC, meaning UNC is less likely to go. But why wouldn't UVa go to the Big Ten? UVa more and more associates with DC. A move to the SEC would be a move away, while a move to the Big Ten is a move toward it.

I don't think UVa--or UNC for that matter--are as (deep) Southern as many people on this board would like to believe.

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--- Steve Dallas wrote:

Second, I'm not sure whether 2009 represents the year you graduated or the year you were born. Either way you display a youthful naivete regarding the ramifications of changing conference affiliation. Of course UNC students & alumni will support the team. I never implied otherwise. What I am fearful of, though, is that the level of support will change over time if UNC to the Big10 happens. You can spin it however you want, but there's a very real risk that enthusiasm will wane if UNC ends up in a midwestern conference populated by teams that the average Carolina fan does not care about. The number of fans may remain constant, but tepid support is most certainly not the same as rabid support. I've expressed my feelings on this & I can guarantee you I'm not alone. Alienating existing fans who are North Carolina natives in the hopes that you can create new fans in Indiana or Wisconsin or Iowa is simply foolish thinking.

Finally, perhaps you should reconsider your willingness to jettison older fans who have supported UNC sports longer than you've been alive (again, assuming you either graduated or were born in 2009). You might find that we're a significant % of the fanbase & that we do, in fact, matter.

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The "average" UNC fan is someone who grew up in New York or Florida watching UNC basketball.

As for the UNC fans in North Carolina who also care about UNC football, for as many people who would whine about not being in a Southern conference any more, there would be people who would be excited to play Notre Dame and Penn State, or Michigan and Ohio State, or Nebraska and Wisconsin every year. Think about that. If this shakes out the way the Ohio State fans are saying, then every year we will play 4 traditional ACC rivals (some years 5) and at least 2 powerhouse football programs. Not to mention we'd probably keep the yearly game with NC State.

Our in-conference schedule already has UVa, Duke, Ga Tech, and NC State. Most UNC fans don't care about Miami, Pitt, or BC. So we'd lose the game with Va Tech. Boo hoo. We'd play FSU every year.

The SEC-only fans will see the Big Ten as a downgrade because they will compare it to SEC football. But UNC football would be better off than it is now, with more money, better games, and more national exposure.

It's naive to think UNC would curb its growth because the small segment of football-only-SEC-only fans would be upset (and most only temporarily).



Edit: And for the record, I'm pro-ACC. I'd rather be in a 16-team SEC than a 16-team Big Ten (because it means there aren't enough local games). But a 20-team Big Ten, with 6 former ACC teams (all teams from the 90s), looks pretty good in my eyes.

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:



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--- Steve Dallas wrote:

I can honestly say that if UNC to the Big10 comes to pass then my interest & passion for UNC sports will be greatly diminished. It breaks my heart to even type that, but it's true.

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UNC isn't going to make any move that isn't supported by our big-time donors. UNC students and alumni will continue to support the program regardless. The children of alumni will still grow up UNC fans. And our national appeal may actually get stronger among unaffiliated persons from a move to a conference with a larger footprint. So if you want out, I don't think we'll miss ya.

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Look, we know where you stand and where you are coming from. But MOST of us prefer the SEC by a wide margin. It is YOU that won't be missed.

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--- phatassjungle wrote:



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--- Steve Dallas wrote:

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--- WinchesterBUCK wrote:

Oh, tOSU Insider did mention ND has come to realize a conference is in its future and its probably the B1G.

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This makes absolutely no sense. If ND realizes a conference is in its future then the smart move is to join the ACC full time. They clearly don't want the B10 & could instantly stabilize the ACC. ND joining full time would also put the ACC ahead of the B12.

Sounds like nothing but speculation & wishful thinking on the part of OSU insiders.

I can honestly say that if UNC to the Big10 comes to pass then my interest & passion for UNC sports will be greatly diminished. It breaks my heart to even type that, but it's true. There's nobody in the B10 that I'm even remotely interested in playing except for maybe Michigan & OSU, but that's a novelty that would wear off quickly.

On the other hand, I can think of at least 6 or 7 SEC teams I'd be much more excited to play than Michigan or OSU.

My preference is for a stable & prosperous ACC. IF that's not possible then SEC all the way. Beyond that, nothing. I'd almost rather quit watching than follow UNC in the B10.

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I promise you this is not wishful thinking by our insiders.This info comes from a special guest through one of our insiders. Maybe twice a year or when something is going on at tOSU or BIG. Have any of NC fans heard 1 thing about a move to the SEC except wishful thinking amongst the fans? Its not in the works. Slive and Delaney our spooning on this. There not competing against each other. They our deciding...

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This proves you know nothing and are just trolling.

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:

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--- Steve Dallas wrote:

Second, I'm not sure whether 2009 represents the year you graduated or the year you were born. Either way you display a youthful naivete regarding the ramifications of changing conference affiliation. Of course UNC students & alumni will support the team. I never implied otherwise. What I am fearful of, though, is that the level of support will change over time if UNC to the Big10 happens. You can spin it however you want, but there's a very real risk that enthusiasm will wane if UNC ends up in a midwestern conference populated by teams that the average Carolina fan does not care about. The number of fans may remain constant, but tepid support is most certainly not the same as rabid support. I've expressed my feelings on this & I can guarantee you I'm not alone. Alienating existing fans who are North Carolina natives in the hopes that you can create new fans in Indiana or Wisconsin or Iowa is simply foolish thinking.

Finally, perhaps you should reconsider your willingness to jettison older fans who have supported UNC sports longer than you've been alive (again, assuming you either graduated or were born in 2009). You might find that we're a significant % of the fanbase & that we do, in fact, matter.

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The "average" UNC fan is someone who grew up in New York or Florida watching UNC basketball.

As for the UNC fans in North Carolina who also care about UNC football, for as many people who would whine about not being in a Southern conference any more, there would be people who would be excited to play Notre Dame and Penn State, or Michigan and Ohio State, or Nebraska and Wisconsin every year. Think about that. If this shakes out the way the Ohio State fans are saying, then every year we will play 4 traditional ACC rivals (some years 5) and at least 2 powerhouse football programs. Not to mention we'd probably keep the yearly game with NC State.

Our in-conference schedule already has UVa, Duke, Ga Tech, and NC State. Most UNC fans don't care about Miami, Pitt, or BC. So we'd lose the game with Va Tech. Boo hoo. We'd play FSU every year.

The SEC-only fans will see the Big Ten as a downgrade because they will compare it to SEC football. But UNC football would be better off than it is now, with more money, better games, and more national exposure.

It's naive to think UNC would curb its growth because the small segment of football-only-SEC-only fans would be upset (and most only temporarily).



Edit: And for the record, I'm pro-ACC. I'd rather be in a 16-team SEC than a 16-team Big Ten (because it means there aren't enough local games). But a 20-team Big Ten, with 6 former ACC teams (all teams from the 90s), looks pretty good in my eyes.

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Be careful, you almost totally outed yourself as the basketball only fan you really are.

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--- Carolina2009 wrote:

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--- Steve Dallas wrote:

Second, I'm not sure whether 2009 represents the year you graduated or the year you were born. Either way you display a youthful naivete regarding the ramifications of changing conference affiliation. Of course UNC students & alumni will support the team. I never implied otherwise. What I am fearful of, though, is that the level of support will change over time if UNC to the Big10 happens. You can spin it however you want, but there's a very real risk that enthusiasm will wane if UNC ends up in a midwestern conference populated by teams that the average Carolina fan does not care about. The number of fans may remain constant, but tepid support is most certainly not the same as rabid support. I've expressed my feelings on this & I can guarantee you I'm not alone. Alienating existing fans who are North Carolina natives in the hopes that you can create new fans in Indiana or Wisconsin or Iowa is simply foolish thinking.

Finally, perhaps you should reconsider your willingness to jettison older fans who have supported UNC sports longer than you've been alive (again, assuming you either graduated or were born in 2009). You might find that we're a significant % of the fanbase & that we do, in fact, matter.

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The "average" UNC fan is someone who grew up in New York or Florida watching UNC basketball.

As for the UNC fans in North Carolina who also care about UNC football, for as many people who would whine about not being in a Southern conference any more, there would be people who would be excited to play Notre Dame and Penn State, or Michigan and Ohio State, or Nebraska and Wisconsin every year. Think about that. If this shakes out the way the Ohio State fans are saying, then every year we will play 4 traditional ACC rivals (some years 5) and at least 2 powerhouse football programs. Not to mention we'd probably keep the yearly game with NC State.

Our in-conference schedule already has UVa, Duke, Ga Tech, and NC State. Most UNC fans don't care about Miami, Pitt, or BC. So we'd lose the game with Va Tech. Boo hoo. We'd play FSU every year.

The SEC-only fans will see the Big Ten as a downgrade because they will compare it to SEC football. But UNC football would be better off than it is now, with more money, better games, and more national exposure.

It's naive to think UNC would curb its growth because the small segment of football-only-SEC-only fans would be upset (and most only temporarily).



Edit: And for the record, I'm pro-ACC. I'd rather be in a 16-team SEC than a 16-team Big Ten (because it means there aren't enough local games). But a 20-team Big Ten, with 6 former ACC teams (all teams from the 90s), looks pretty good in my eyes.

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It can't be said enough that if Carolina was forced into the rustbelt conference we would lose the state to NCSU within 3-5 years. The rustbelt idiots can't admit the inferiority of their product now but the rest of the country does. The rustbelt doesn't produce the athletes needed to compete. The weather in the rustbelt prevents them from recruiting enough quality southern athletes.

If new technology comes as quickly as it appears it will the ala carte style TV access will destroy the fool's gold promised by the rustbelt. Extortion based cable networks will fail.

If Carolina is to change conferences we need to go to the one with a future not one whose heyday was 60 years ago. Within the next 20-50 years the academics in the SEC will surpass the rustbelt. If Carolina and UVA go as a package that time frame becomes 5-10. Only blind fools living in the past can't see the demographic and economic trends will kill the rustbelt and raise the SEC.

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--- expatriateheel wrote:


It can't be said enough that if Carolina was forced into the rustbelt conference we would lose the state to NCSU within 3-5 years. The rustbelt idiots can't admit the inferiority of their product now but the rest of the country does. The rustbelt doesn't produce the athletes needed to compete. The weather in the rustbelt prevents them from recruiting enough quality southern athletes.

If new technology comes as quickly as it appears it will the ala carte style TV access will destroy the fool's gold promised by the rustbelt. Extortion based cable networks will fail.

If Carolina is to change conferences we need to go to the one with a future not one whose heyday was 60 years ago. Within the next 20-50 years the academics in the SEC will surpass the rustbelt. If Carolina and UVA go as a package that time frame becomes 5-10. Only blind fools living in the past can't see the demographic and economic trends will kill the rustbelt and raise the SEC.

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Could you explain how the SEC's academics will surpass the B1G in a mere 20 years? Are you under the impression that the Midwest is completely emptying out of people and that all those states are dead broke?

Michigan's endowment is about $5 billion larger than anyone in the SEC except for Texas A&M...you see the SEC closing that gap and surging ahead of it in only 20 years?

Do economic and demographic trends last forever?

This thread is awesome...

These are the top 8 research universities in each conference in terms of total research money spent as of 2009...also included is a ranking of where the school is nationally

B1G
Michigan (#2) $1.007 Billion
Wisconsin (#3) $952 Million
Minnesota (#9) $741 Million
Ohio State (#12) $716 Million
Penn State (#15) $663 Million
Illinois (#25) $564 Million
Northwestern (#28) $515 Million
Purdue (#33) $454 Million

SEC
Texas A&M (#18) $631 Million
Florida (#21) $592 Million
Vanderbilt (#37) $432 Million
Kentucky (#46) $373 Million
Georgia (#51) $350 Million
LSU (?) $286 Million
Missouri (?) $245 Million
Tennessee (#94) $194 Million

Source:

mup.asu.edu/research2011.pdf

This isn't to advocate one way or the other but to just point out how far ahead the B1G currently is ahead of the SEC schools in terms of research. There's generally a large gap in terms of endowment funds as well. Newest member Texas A&M is both the top research performer AND has the largest endowment fund by far. Which should give you an indication of how far behind the rest of that conference was. It may be making up ground, but not quick enough to surpass the B1G schools in our lifetimes. And even that presumes basically no growth anywhere north of Tennessee for over 50 years. Which is ridiculous.

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--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

Look, we know where you stand and where you are coming from. But MOST of us prefer the SEC by a wide margin. It is YOU that won't be missed.

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--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

Be careful, you almost totally outed yourself as the basketball only fan you really are.

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I will continue to support UNC football regardless of which conference we are in, and I will continue to travel to watch UNC football games in a variety of states. The I-want-to-be-in-the-SEC-so-I-am-a-superior-fan shtick is getting old.

Did I miss something?!? Why is conference realignment gossip on the front page again?

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--- DrStrangelove wrote:



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Could you explain how the SEC's academics will surpass the B1G in a mere 20 years? Are you under the impression that the Midwest is completely emptying out of people and that all those states are dead broke?

Michigan's endowment is about $5 billion larger than anyone in the SEC except for Texas A&M...you see the SEC closing that gap and surging ahead of it in only 20 years?

Do economic and demographic trends last forever?

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Economic and demographic trends don't last forever. That is a good point. In fact, retirement communities outside the traditional warmer climes are becoming more and more popular.

On the other hand, judging by Charleston, SC, the midwest must be rapidly emptying of people.

www.charlestoncitypaper.com/ch...ent?oid=1946300