I understand the debate of Big Ten verses SEC verses staying in the ACC and the desire to keep things as they are or at least play neighboring state teams (this has been a big issue for Penn State fans since we joined the big ten as well). I get wanting to travel to away games in warmer climates compared to Madison, Wisconsin or Minneapolis. I just don't get the Civil War injection into the discussion.

As far as cultural differences, I was born in Florida, went to high school in Ohio, went to the University of Cincinnati and then worked for 7 years in North Carolina where I met my wife. I spend just about every holiday in North Carolina and I'm not sure what kind of cultural differences people think there are.. People in North Carolina are just like people in Ohio and Florida.

Honestly, I don't get the cultural difference thing at all. It's not like North Carolina folks are swamp people from Louisiana or are from California.

Your love and togetherness post is the polar opposite of your previous one, which would be right at home at any Lost Cause gathering. I think it's safe to say that the 'multi' part of any multicultural flock would beg to differ with your contention that your ancestors and mine were the marginalized ones---to put it mildly. To put it bluntly, I'd love to see you deliver your message of Southern victimhood to the families of the majority of the athletes who you Rabidly follow. I don't think you'd be interrupted with any "amens".

On topic and aside from Rabidrev's pitiable historical slant, having lived all over the country I also think NC has as much if not more cultural affinity with the Midwest as the deep South. Chicago and it's environs felt very familiar to this Southern kid. Birmingham--not so much.


--- therabidrev wrote:

Of course Northerners don't identify themselves with or by the Civil War, they weren't invaded or reconstructed, their male population wasn't decimated and their infrastructure destroyed, and as the victors they got to write the history books with their particular twists and nuances. Northerners are mainstream, we're the ones who were and are marginalized.

---------------------------------------------

My multicultural flock is hardly Klannish. Self-loathing is counter-productive for us in the South. I cannot change the past, but I can make today better, and by teaching all generations to love and work together make tomorrow better as well. Promoting hatred never does that.

dadgum, never had a problem with you and have generally enjoyed your posts. Having said that, I have no idea what your problem is with what the rev said. If you don't think southerners paid a price during and after the war, you are clueless. Maybe you should do a little research into the polite atrocities the "genteel" northerners visited on southern women and families.

One of our famous civil war generals, Sherman, should have been hung as a war criminal, for war crimes. He used prisoners to shield his army on the march, and had southern prisoners executed in retaliation. These are well documented, and against the rules of warfare of every civilized nation, even at that time in history. He was also quoted as telling his officers to have his army "rape Atlanta"... and they did just that. I guess that was ok also.

You can't condemn the inhumanity of slavery, and then turn around and ignore the inhumanity the north inflicted on the south. While it might not have been "official" policy, they without a doubt silently encouraged it and turned a blind eye to it, doing absolutely nothing to stop it.

Edited to add. I didn't even bring up the condoned rape, theft, and even executions that were committed by Yankee troops and carpetbaggers.
---------------------------------------------
--- dadgumgame wrote:

Your love and togetherness post is the polar opposite of your previous one, which would be right at home at any Lost Cause gathering. I think it's safe to say that the 'multi' part of any multicultural flock would beg to differ with your contention that your ancestors and mine were the marginalized ones---to put it mildly. To put it bluntly, I'd love to see you deliver your message of Southern victimhood to the families of the majority of the athletes who you Rabidly follow. I don't think you'd be interrupted with any "amens".

On topic and aside from Rabidrev's pitiable historical slant, having lived all over the country I also think NC has as much if not more cultural affinity with the Midwest as the deep South. Chicago and it's environs felt very familiar to this Southern kid. Birmingham--not so much.

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I'm not a fan whatsoever of the realignment....but it is what it is. The long term reality should be pretty obvious to anyone that isn't looking through filtered glasses. It's all about football...and with the agreement on a 4 team playoff, we are going to a 4 super-conference system. I wouldn't be surprised that once that in place the conferences decide to abandon the NCAA altogether...including creating their own BB tourney.

The last thing any school wants is to be left out of one of these super-conferences. So folks not in one of the of the solid conferences will be constantly looking over their shoulder, as well as putting out statements denying the inevitable. It may not happen this year, but it's going to happen, and I think it's becoming unlikely that the ACC is going to be left once it's all done. The last round of realignment seemed to be pointing to the demise of the Big 12, but they have shored up, and they enough powerhouse football programs to survive....as long as Texas stays content.

The most reasonable scenario is everyone holds pat until they see what happens with the $50M exit fee for Maryland. If that doesn't hold up, FSU is gone, because they don't want to be in the ACC whatsoever. Clemson will likely follow, because the B12 will want to add 2. Once that happens it will be dominoes and everyone should be prepared for that. The idea floated tonight that Cincy is trying to join the ACC just shows how weak the conference is right now.

UNC, VA and GT are the B1G targets....they aren't interested in any of the other ACC schools. SEC will add 2 more, most likely VT and NCST.

It's curious to me that the B1G would want UNC, VA, and GT, but not Dook. Anybody have any thoughts or insight on that?

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--- twenty02fun wrote:

UNC, VA and GT are the B1G targets....they aren't interested in any of the other ACC schools. SEC will add 2 more, most likely VT and NCST.

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It looks like Western Stormer was right, Civil War discussion seems to quickly go in a bad direction. My apologies for continuing with that topic - I saw a number of posters allude to it in referring to cultural differences and have honestly always been a little confused why it would divide us some many years and generations later. Hopefully the posters can agree to disagree rather than derailing the general discussion of UNC fitting as a B1G or SEC school.

dook has nothing but basketball, and is a very small private University.

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--- thebuckeye wrote:


It's curious to me that the B1G would want UNC, VA, and GT, but not Dook. Anybody have any thoughts or insight on that?

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--- twenty02fun wrote:

UNC, VA and GT are the B1G targets....they aren't interested in any of the other ACC schools. SEC will add 2 more, most likely VT and NCST.

---------------------------------------------

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Ahh. I hadn't realized that is was small and private - definitely not a typical B1G school. In that case, let's add UNC, Virginia, Georgia Tech, and Kansas, drop the 10 and just call it the very very B1G.

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--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

dook has nothing but basketball, and is a very small private University.

---------------------------------------------
--- thebuckeye wrote:


It's curious to me that the B1G would want UNC, VA, and GT, but not Dook. Anybody have any thoughts or insight on that?

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--- twenty02fun wrote:

UNC, VA and GT are the B1G targets....they aren't interested in any of the other ACC schools. SEC will add 2 more, most likely VT and NCST.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

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--- thebuckeye wrote:

It looks like Western Stormer was right, Civil War discussion seems to quickly go in a bad direction. My apologies for continuing with that topic - I saw a number of posters allude to it in referring to cultural differences and have honestly always been a little confused why it would divide us some many years and generations later. Hopefully the posters can agree to disagree rather than derailing the general discussion of UNC fitting as a B1G or SEC school.

---------------------------------------------

It doesn't divide things for me. I was pointing out that there was a hefty price that was paid, and one that has left an imprint on the south.

Beyond that, losing the war was the best thing for us and the world. I don't hate people from up north, some of my best friends are from up north. Having said that, I pretty much despise the yankees that look down their nose at the south and talk down to us. Being from up north and being a yankee, two different animals.

I'm not a fan of super conferences. There was a lot to be said for the smaller regional conferences and independents - back in the day when each bball team played every other member of the conference twice each year. The influx of money which has become the sole deciding force on all actions is not good for college sports. I would have thought the NCAA would try to stop this long ago given the ability for money to corrupt and the likelihood that the super conferences abandon the NCAA eventually. I wish the ACC (and other conferences) would remain unchanged with their regional flavor. Unfortunately, if the rumors are true, and Louisville or Cincinnati are going to be asked to join the ACC- I don't think it stabilizes the conference. It fills a gap but looks a lot like what the big east did in desperately trying to fill spots of those who left. To stabilize the conference FSU, VA Tech, and Clemson have to completely give their allegiance to the ACC publicly. It's pretty clear this mess will continue for a while.

PSU coming over would probably stabilize things. ;-)


---------------------------------------------
--- psu00 wrote:

I'm not a fan of super conferences. There was a lot to be said for the smaller regional conferences and independents - back in the day when each bball team played every other member of the conference twice each year. The influx of money which has become the sole deciding force on all actions is not good for college sports. I would have thought the NCAA would try to stop this long ago given the ability for money to corrupt and the likelihood that the super conferences abandon the NCAA eventually. I wish the ACC (and other conferences) would remain unchanged with their regional flavor. Unfortunately, if the rumors are true, and Louisville or Cincinnati are going to be asked to join the ACC- I don't think it stabilizes the conference. It fills a gap but looks a lot like what the big east did in desperately trying to fill spots of those who left. To stabilize the conference FSU, VA Tech, and Clemson have to completely give their allegiance to the ACC publicly. It's pretty clear this mess will continue for a while.

---------------------------------------------

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--

It doesn't divide things for me. I was pointing out that there was a hefty price that was paid, and one that has left an imprint on the south.

Beyond that, losing the war was the best thing for us and the world. I don't hate people from up north, some of my best friends are from up north. Having said that, I pretty much despise the yankees that look down their nose at the south and talk down to us. Being from up north and being a yankee, two different animals.

---------------------------------------------

Fair enough but it ended 147 years ago. I think then that you can understand why those from up North would be just as offended by those from the South that look down their nose at us and talk down to us over a war that ended in 1865. I still don't get how it even gets mentioned in a debate over conference affiliation at all. ;)

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--- ShadowSpawne wrote:


PSU coming over would probably stabilize things. ;-)

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---------------------------------------------

I hear ya. Most Penn State fans would be in favor of it if finances were equal. Hell- a large percentage are in favor of it even if not equal money but the administration would never do it. Some of the push of PSU to the ACC has died down as the ACC is seen as somewhat unstable (true or not) with FSU and Clemson looking for an excuse to bolt. I still maintain that if Notre Dame, VA Tech, FSU, Clemson and Miami ADs as well as Swofford got on a plane to State College with a unified push for PSU and ND to join in full (and expected tv money as a result) - they would not be turned away from Old Main. Not saying PSU would instantly join but it would not be immediately dismissed and discussions would continue but it would require the ACC football teams to agree not to bolt for the big 12. There have been some posts on the PSU board about Notre Dame trying to be a proactive force in this regard but who knows if true or Internet BS. Frankly, ND will be worried where it would go if the ACC collapses and there is a history with the big ten where ND does not want to join and has burned a lot of bridges. This would really require Swofford to take a very bold move here rather than just add louisville or UCONN and call it a day. I don't know if he has it in him- you all know him much better than we do.

I enjoy your posts as well, Shadowspawne even when we disagree, as in this case. I have actually done quite a bit of reading on the topics you mention, much of it encountered first in the Southern Historical Collection at UNC. I encourage anyone who has an interest to check it out, no matter your opinion on the War.

Of course the South suffered greatly, but the rapes and other atrocities you bring up are generally undocumented myths. Any serious Civil War historian would tell you thus. Not to say some horrible things outside the bounds of normal combat didn't happen as they do in any war, but there is no evidence whatsoever that they occurred at the dizzying rate the Lost Causers gave us over the years.

There are several good bios of Sherman I can recommend if you are interested, that give a fair depiction of a complicated man, who most assuredly ended the war more quickly by his harrowing actions. Without question, several of his higher ups had in in for S Carolina, as that state was seen by them (correctly) as the beating heart of secession and the cause for the vast majority of the conflict. Interestingly, NC was treated well b/c it was not part of the Deep South, was known to harbor strong Unionist feeling, and had been one of the last states to secede. Had they known we were considering joining the SEC, though, we might not have fared so well. I kid! I had to fit in a reference to the thread topic somewhere.

Apologies to those who didn't ask for a side helping of historical debate w/ your conference realignment main course.


---------------------------------------------
--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

dadgum, never had a problem with you and have generally enjoyed your posts. Having said that, I have no idea what your problem is with what the rev said. If you don't think southerners paid a price during and after the war, you are clueless. Maybe you should do a little research into the polite atrocities the "genteel" northerners visited on southern women and families.

One of our famous civil war generals, Sherman, should have been hung as a war criminal, for war crimes. He used prisoners to shield his army on the march, and had southern prisoners executed in retaliation. These are well documented, and against the rules of warfare of every civilized nation, even at that time in history. He was also quoted as telling his officers to have his army "rape Atlanta"... and they did just that. I guess that was ok also.

You can't condemn the inhumanity of slavery, and then turn around and ignore the inhumanity the north inflicted on the south. While it might not have been "official" policy, they without a doubt silently encouraged it and turned a blind eye to it, doing absolutely nothing to stop it.

Edited to add. I didn't even bring up the condoned rape, theft, and even executions that were committed by Yankee troops and carpetbaggers.
---------------------------------------------
--- dadgumgame wrote:

Your love and togetherness post is the polar opposite of your previous one, which would be right at home at any Lost Cause gathering. I think it's safe to say that the 'multi' part of any multicultural flock would beg to differ with your contention that your ancestors and mine were the marginalized ones---to put it mildly. To put it bluntly, I'd love to see you deliver your message of Southern victimhood to the families of the majority of the athletes who you Rabidly follow. I don't think you'd be interrupted with any "amens".

On topic and aside from Rabidrev's pitiable historical slant, having lived all over the country I also think NC has as much if not more cultural affinity with the Midwest as the deep South. Chicago and it's environs felt very familiar to this Southern kid. Birmingham--not so much.

---------------------------------------------

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Just for the record, it is VERY likely/almost certain than any UNC attempt to move to the Big Ten would be nullified by the General Assembly so long as the SEC was not already full.
The lobbying campaign that could be unleashed on this would make the opposition to Obamacare look like a phone call on a talk show. So for all of you Big Ten lovers, get over it. Ain't gonna happen.

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--- GforHeels wrote:

Just for the record, it is VERY likely/almost certain than any UNC attempt to move to the Big Ten would be nullified by the General Assembly so long as the SEC was not already full.
The lobbying campaign that could be unleashed on this would make the opposition to Obamacare look like a phone call on a talk show. So for all of you Big Ten lovers, get over it. Ain't gonna happen.

---------------------------------------------

It is actually very likely that the NC GA would not allow Carolina to leave NC State behind. If NC State does not have an equal offer from the SEC or Big XII, Carolina would never be allowed to go to the B1G or SEC. Cutting of your nose to spite your face.

I was worried about State being an anchor around UNC's neck for awhile, too. But, the reality is that State could get into the Big12 along with the other Southern ACC schools, or worst case be part of a weakened ACC/BE.

Plus, let's not forget the overblown mess that State has brought us for over two years now. Media outlets, the NCAA, and the fandom all agreed nothing to see here, and NCSU and its local media idiots have been on a campaign of defamation for what feels like eternity.

Don't think there isn't a significant portion of the GA that wouldn't mind giving State the finger, focusing all of the state's resources into having one truly elite flagship university, like there used to be.

State ran a top ten engineering program into the ground and has brought little to the state of NC other than shame for the better part of 30-40 years. They don't understand family and are the ultimate example of cutting your own nose to spite your own face.

I think splitting UNC and NCSU is not out of the question, especially if the GA can justify that NCSU will still end up in no worse than a 5th best conference.

Funny, we heard the same talk about the Texas G A not letting Texas an Texas AM being split up. Now there's a huge rivalry, they even have to share the same billions in oil money endowment that the state of Texas gave them

But TAMU wanted to get out of UTs shadow and they left for the SEC while Texas was romancing the Big 10 and the Pac12. Neither the Big 10 or the Pac12 would bend to Texas' rules that Texas has it's own TV network aside and apart from the B10 or P 12s network. Both conferences got strong by sharing equally among the best and the worst football schools and they weren't going to let Texas (or ND) break that togetherness culture.

We see TAMU in the Sec and Texas in the B12 ( I still think is a weaker league than the ACC). I'm pretty sure that if State goes to the SEC and UNC goes to the B10, the NC GA won't interfere.

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--- TheOriginalWhitePhantom wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- GforHeels wrote:

Just for the record, it is VERY likely/almost certain than any UNC attempt to move to the Big Ten would be nullified by the General Assembly so long as the SEC was not already full.
The lobbying campaign that could be unleashed on this would make the opposition to Obamacare look like a phone call on a talk show. So for all of you Big Ten lovers, get over it. Ain't gonna happen.

---------------------------------------------

It is actually very likely that the NC GA would not allow Carolina to leave NC State behind. If NC State does not have an equal offer from the SEC or Big XII, Carolina would never be allowed to go to the B1G or SEC. Cutting of your nose to spite your face.

---------------------------------------------

PS. Jim Delaney, the Big Ten commissioner is from North Carolina and it's Delaney that's driving the B10 and college football to realignment. He has been a masterful chess player to date and he definitely wants his alma mater, UNC, to be part of the Big Ten. Two tears ago, I laughed at the thought of UNC even thinking about leaving the ACC but here we are today.

Not sure where Notre Dame ends up but I think Delaney is taking away it's only option, the ACC because it would never join the B12 or the SEC. And if it can't remain independent, then it was either the ACC or the B10.

So long as they leave their football program out of any conference (and that's the strong desire), they will be a detriment to whatever conference they are in.

You need a miracle for ND to be swayed to join the ACC in football and right now, the ACC is looking weaker by the moment with adding more Big East schools.

We need to push the state legislature into making sure we stay a southern school and go to the SEC.

Have to disagree with this Phantom. I think most folks are starting to realize that UNC and State can still be rivals even if we are not in the same league, and that there may even be benefits to that. The GA can count, and the bottom line is there is zero chance that both UNC and NCS go to either the SEC or the Big Ten. That said, since there must be a split or we would sink together with a potentially foundering ACC, I don't see any problems with a split from the GA. The UVa VPI thing happened in a different time and for different reasons. That got $$$ for Tech, whereas keeping us all in a sinking ACC will lose $$$ for both State and UNC.

Like I said originally, dream on about going to the Big Ten. It ain't gonna happen, assuming we don't get caught with NO other choice to remain financially stable.



---------------------------------------------
--- TheOriginalWhitePhantom wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- GforHeels wrote:

Just for the record, it is VERY likely/almost certain than any UNC attempt to move to the Big Ten would be nullified by the General Assembly so long as the SEC was not already full.
The lobbying campaign that could be unleashed on this would make the opposition to Obamacare look like a phone call on a talk show. So for all of you Big Ten lovers, get over it. Ain't gonna happen.

---------------------------------------------

It is actually very likely that the NC GA would not allow Carolina to leave NC State behind. If NC State does not have an equal offer from the SEC or Big XII, Carolina would never be allowed to go to the B1G or SEC. Cutting of your nose to spite your face.

---------------------------------------------

psu00:

Let me throw this out for what it's worth. A little tidbit that may or may not be influential.

Swofford's barber holds season tickets in Happy Valley. What are the odds that the two of them have discussed this possibility on several occasions?

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--- psu00 wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- ShadowSpawne wrote:


PSU coming over would probably stabilize things. ;-)

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

I hear ya. Most Penn State fans would be in favor of it if finances were equal. Hell- a large percentage are in favor of it even if not equal money but the administration would never do it. Some of the push of PSU to the ACC has died down as the ACC is seen as somewhat unstable (true or not) with FSU and Clemson looking for an excuse to bolt. I still maintain that if Notre Dame, VA Tech, FSU, Clemson and Miami ADs as well as Swofford got on a plane to State College with a unified push for PSU and ND to join in full (and expected tv money as a result) - they would not be turned away from Old Main. Not saying PSU would instantly join but it would not be immediately dismissed and discussions would continue but it would require the ACC football teams to agree not to bolt for the big 12. There have been some posts on the PSU board about Notre Dame trying to be a proactive force in this regard but who knows if true or Internet BS. Frankly, ND will be worried where it would go if the ACC collapses and there is a history with the big ten where ND does not want to join and has burned a lot of bridges. This would really require Swofford to take a very bold move here rather than just add louisville or UCONN and call it a day. I don't know if he has it in him- you all know him much better than we do.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

dadgum, never had a problem with you and have generally enjoyed your posts. Having said that, I have no idea what your problem is with what the rev said. If you don't think southerners paid a price during and after the war, you are clueless. Maybe you should do a little research into the polite atrocities the "genteel" northerners visited on southern women and families.

One of our famous civil war generals, Sherman, should have been hung as a war criminal, for war crimes. He used prisoners to shield his army on the march, and had southern prisoners executed in retaliation. These are well documented, and against the rules of warfare of every civilized nation, even at that time in history. He was also quoted as telling his officers to have his army "rape Atlanta"... and they did just that. I guess that was ok also.

You can't condemn the inhumanity of slavery, and then turn around and ignore the inhumanity the north inflicted on the south. While it might not have been "official" policy, they without a doubt silently encouraged it and turned a blind eye to it, doing absolutely nothing to stop it.

Edited to add. I didn't even bring up the condoned rape, theft, and even executions that were committed by Yankee troops and carpetbaggers.
---------------------------------------------
--- dadgumgame wrote:

Your love and togetherness post is the polar opposite of your previous one, which would be right at home at any Lost Cause gathering. I think it's safe to say that the 'multi' part of any multicultural flock would beg to differ with your contention that your ancestors and mine were the marginalized ones---to put it mildly. To put it bluntly, I'd love to see you deliver your message of Southern victimhood to the families of the majority of the athletes who you Rabidly follow. I don't think you'd be interrupted with any "amens".

On topic and aside from Rabidrev's pitiable historical slant, having lived all over the country I also think NC has as much if not more cultural affinity with the Midwest as the deep South. Chicago and it's environs felt very familiar to this Southern kid. Birmingham--not so much.

---------------------------------------------

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dadgum, if your namecalling rant makes you feel better, so be it. I've done a little reading myself, and took every regional studies course UNC offered when I was a student there. My point was to try to explain why SOME regionally conscious Southerners (by no means all of us) feel like they do about their native region, so that outsiders might better understand. That is all. I neither want nor need your approval.

As for my ministry, just last night I led an adult education class, 2/3 of which was made up of persons of color. We had a 3 hour discussion of our future vision for the South, with the short stories of Southern Christian writers such as Doris Betts as the starting point for said discussion. It was quite intense, sometimes painful, very fruitful, very positive, very healing, filled with love and understanding and hope.

Great news! When I stand before God's throne, you won't be there to judge me, and I won't be there to judge you! That's up to God!

Heck, it's probably been discussed.

I'm not sure that the idea isn't 25 years past due and given the relative strengths of the ACC and the Big Ten today, it would be foolish to make the jump.

Though a lot of B10 fans would not have a problem with PSU leaving after the whole pedophile affair at PSU. The other shoe is yet to fall on PSU and you can expect some severe penalties from the government that may jeopardize their academic standing. Let alone the potential huge payouts to the victims. When is the last time you saw a major university have it's sitting President indicted onfelony charges?


---------------------------------------------
--- WonderWarthog wrote:

psu00:

Let me throw this out for what it's worth. A little tidbit that may or may not be influential.

Swofford's barber holds season tickets in Happy Valley. What are the odds that the two of them have discussed this possibility on several occasions?

---------------------------------------------
--- psu00 wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- ShadowSpawne wrote:


PSU coming over would probably stabilize things. ;-)

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

I hear ya. Most Penn State fans would be in favor of it if finances were equal. Hell- a large percentage are in favor of it even if not equal money but the administration would never do it. Some of the push of PSU to the ACC has died down as the ACC is seen as somewhat unstable (true or not) with FSU and Clemson looking for an excuse to bolt. I still maintain that if Notre Dame, VA Tech, FSU, Clemson and Miami ADs as well as Swofford got on a plane to State College with a unified push for PSU and ND to join in full (and expected tv money as a result) - they would not be turned away from Old Main. Not saying PSU would instantly join but it would not be immediately dismissed and discussions would continue but it would require the ACC football teams to agree not to bolt for the big 12. There have been some posts on the PSU board about Notre Dame trying to be a proactive force in this regard but who knows if true or Internet BS. Frankly, ND will be worried where it would go if the ACC collapses and there is a history with the big ten where ND does not want to join and has burned a lot of bridges. This would really require Swofford to take a very bold move here rather than just add louisville or UCONN and call it a day. I don't know if he has it in him- you all know him much better than we do.

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
--- psu00 wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- ShadowSpawne wrote:


PSU coming over would probably stabilize things. ;-)

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

I hear ya. Most Penn State fans would be in favor of it if finances were equal. Hell- a large percentage are in favor of it even if not equal money but the administration would never do it. Some of the push of PSU to the ACC has died down as the ACC is seen as somewhat unstable (true or not) with FSU and Clemson looking for an excuse to bolt. I still maintain that if Notre Dame, VA Tech, FSU, Clemson and Miami ADs as well as Swofford got on a plane to State College with a unified push for PSU and ND to join in full (and expected tv money as a result) - they would not be turned away from Old Main. Not saying PSU would instantly join but it would not be immediately dismissed and discussions would continue but it would require the ACC football teams to agree not to bolt for the big 12. There have been some posts on the PSU board about Notre Dame trying to be a proactive force in this regard but who knows if true or Internet BS. Frankly, ND will be worried where it would go if the ACC collapses and there is a history with the big ten where ND does not want to join and has burned a lot of bridges. This would really require Swofford to take a very bold move here rather than just add louisville or UCONN and call it a day. I don't know if he has it in him- you all know him much better than we do.

---------------------------------------------

For what it's worth, I've wanted PSU in the ACC for years, long before we even discussed bringing in your old rival Pitt. Back in the 70's, when you were regularly crushing NC State (and Maryland, too) we had a very competitive home-and-home series with Pitt when they were a national power - think Dorsett and Marino, etc. - and overall it was a good intersectional rivalry. Sorry it didn't work out. With Rutgers and Maryland now in the Big 10, our odds of grabbing you went from slim to none...

Hey forum... Long time listener, first time caller. Excellent forum by the way.

I am really surprised by your board's complete (almost seems like 90%) objection to joining the Big Ten! I understand that for football reasons, the SEC has A LOT of allure... But there are only 8-9 conference games a year, there are only 4-5 home in conference games a year. So I have a really hard time believing football will be the biggest deciding factor.

Baseball would be a MUCH better fit in the SEC then the Big Ten, but let's be honest, most Big Ten schools play in the south the first month or two of the season anyways. Also, the Big Ten isn't bad in baseball because the play up north... They're bad in baseball because A LOT of their players grew up playing baseball up north! I really can't imagine being in the Big Ten hurting baseball recruiting for UNC, because you guys will still pull a ton of guys from the south, and they won't really have to ever play inncold weather.

So football may have a slightly better reason to join the SEC over the Big Ten (my next post will try to negate this), and baseball would be a much better fit in the SEC... But all other sports (yes including basketball) and ALL branches of academia would benefit greatly from being in the Big Ten and the CIC!!!

How the UNC can flourish in the Big Ten in football...

Let me introdue your forum (I haven't seen it mentioned) to the Pod system. The Pod system is THE BEST way to run a 16 team conference. The Big Ten conference would maintain 2 divisions (we'll say the Leaders and the Legends, man I hate that), but the teams that make up that divisions would change on a YEARLY basis... Stick with me on this.

The 16 team league would be subdivided into 4 "Pods," each containing 4 teams. For the time being, we'll call them Pod 1, 2, 3 and 4. In year 1, Pod 1 and Pod 2 would be paired together in a division and Pod 3 and Pod 4 would be paired together in the other. You would play all teams in your Pod (3 games) and all teams in the Pod you are paired with (4 games), you would also play 1 team in each of the other 2 Pods (2 games, 9 total conference games). In year 2, Pod 1 would be paired with Pod 3 in one division and Pod 2 with Pod 4 in the other. In year 3, Pod 1 and Pod 4 would be paired and Pod 2 and Pod 3 would be paired in the other.

Still with me? To maintain some of the Big Ten's current rivalries, a "protected rival" would be retained between 2 teams (for instance Ohio State vs Michigan)... Other wise, your single cross Pod games would be based on your previous years conference record (like how the NFL pairs teams from different divisions). For instance, if you had the best conference record in you Pod in 2012, in 2013 you would play the #1 team in the two Pods you are not paired with that year (unless your protected rival is in that Pod, or the #1 team in that Pod you are suppose to play is a protected rival of a team in your Pod).

Still with me? Feel free to ask any questions... And here's the kicker, the Pods would be:

East - UNC, PSU, UVA, Maryland
Central - OSU, Rutgers, Northwestern, Illinois
North - Michigan, MSU, Purdue, Indiana
West - Nebraska, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota

Now that the Pods have been defined, you can predict UNC's conference slate. We'll say it is a year where the East is paired with the North, and the Central is paired with the West... And for the crossover games, assume that the above list also represents how the teams finished the previous year. For instance, UNC>PSU>UVA>Maryland (as far as 2012 conference records) OSU>Rutgers>Northwestern>Illinois.

UNC 2013 in coference schedule: PSU, UVA, Maryland, Michigan, MSU, Purdue, Indiana, OSU, Nebraska

Is that really a bad conference schedule? Fans couldn't get behind that? Out of conference you could play NCState, Duke, and a directional school from a southern state.

ended ? .... who said it was over ?

147 year truce is all ....

as soon as rabidrev brings the NC 49th in line .... the 11th NC will right behind them (ducking) as always ......

:)

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--- psu00 wrote:


Fair enough but it ended 147 years ago. I think then that you can understand why those from up North would be just as offended by those from the South that look down their nose at us and talk down to us over a war that ended in 1865. I still don't get how it even gets mentioned in a debate over conference affiliation at all. ;)

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--- buckEYEdr2B wrote:

How the UNC can flourish in the Big Ten in football...

Let me introdue your forum (I haven't seen it mentioned) to the Pod system. The Pod system is THE BEST way to run a 16 team conference. The Big Ten conference would maintain 2 divisions (we'll say the Leaders and the Legends, man I hate that), but the teams that make up that divisions would change on a YEARLY basis... Stick with me on this.

The 16 team league would be subdivided into 4 "Pods," each containing 4 teams. For the time being, we'll call them Pod 1, 2, 3 and 4. In year 1, Pod 1 and Pod 2 would be paired together in a division and Pod 3 and Pod 4 would be paired together in the other. You would play all teams in your Pod (3 games) and all teams in the Pod you are paired with (4 games), you would also play 1 team in each of the other 2 Pods (2 games, 9 total conference games). In year 2, Pod 1 would be paired with Pod 3 in one division and Pod 2 with Pod 4 in the other. In year 3, Pod 1 and Pod 4 would be paired and Pod 2 and Pod 3 would be paired in the other.

Still with me? To maintain some of the Big Ten's current rivalries, a "protected rival" would be retained between 2 teams (for instance Ohio State vs Michigan)... Other wise, your single cross Pod games would be based on your previous years conference record (like how the NFL pairs teams from different divisions). For instance, if you had the best conference record in you Pod in 2012, in 2013 you would play the #1 team in the two Pods you are not paired with that year (unless your protected rival is in that Pod, or the #1 team in that Pod you are suppose to play is a protected rival of a team in your Pod).

Still with me? Feel free to ask any questions... And here's the kicker, the Pods would be:

East - UNC, PSU, UVA, Maryland
Central - OSU, Rutgers, Northwestern, Illinois
North - Michigan, MSU, Purdue, Indiana
West - Nebraska, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota

Now that the Pods have been defined, you can predict UNC's conference slate. We'll say it is a year where the East is paired with the North, and the Central is paired with the West... And for the crossover games, assume that the above list also represents how the teams finished the previous year. For instance, UNC>PSU>UVA>Maryland (as far as 2012 conference records) OSU>Rutgers>Northwestern>Illinois.

UNC 2013 in coference schedule: PSU, UVA, Maryland, Michigan, MSU, Purdue, Indiana, OSU, Nebraska

Is that really a bad conference schedule? Fans couldn't get behind that? Out of conference you could play NCState, Duke, and a directional school from a southern state.

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The pod system works well for okra.

Didn't know Doris Betts was a "Southern Christian" writer now.

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--- therabidrev wrote:


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--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

dadgum, never had a problem with you and have generally enjoyed your posts. Having said that, I have no idea what your problem is with what the rev said. If you don't think southerners paid a price during and after the war, you are clueless. Maybe you should do a little research into the polite atrocities the "genteel" northerners visited on southern women and families.

One of our famous civil war generals, Sherman, should have been hung as a war criminal, for war crimes. He used prisoners to shield his army on the march, and had southern prisoners executed in retaliation. These are well documented, and against the rules of warfare of every civilized nation, even at that time in history. He was also quoted as telling his officers to have his army "rape Atlanta"... and they did just that. I guess that was ok also.

You can't condemn the inhumanity of slavery, and then turn around and ignore the inhumanity the north inflicted on the south. While it might not have been "official" policy, they without a doubt silently encouraged it and turned a blind eye to it, doing absolutely nothing to stop it.

Edited to add. I didn't even bring up the condoned rape, theft, and even executions that were committed by Yankee troops and carpetbaggers.
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--- dadgumgame wrote:

Your love and togetherness post is the polar opposite of your previous one, which would be right at home at any Lost Cause gathering. I think it's safe to say that the 'multi' part of any multicultural flock would beg to differ with your contention that your ancestors and mine were the marginalized ones---to put it mildly. To put it bluntly, I'd love to see you deliver your message of Southern victimhood to the families of the majority of the athletes who you Rabidly follow. I don't think you'd be interrupted with any "amens".

On topic and aside from Rabidrev's pitiable historical slant, having lived all over the country I also think NC has as much if not more cultural affinity with the Midwest as the deep South. Chicago and it's environs felt very familiar to this Southern kid. Birmingham--not so much.

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dadgum, if your namecalling rant makes you feel better, so be it. I've done a little reading myself, and took every regional studies course UNC offered when I was a student there. My point was to try to explain why SOME regionally conscious Southerners (by no means all of us) feel like they do about their native region, so that outsiders might better understand. That is all. I neither want nor need your approval.

As for my ministry, just last night I led an adult education class, 2/3 of which was made up of persons of color. We had a 3 hour discussion of our future vision for the South, with the short stories of Southern Christian writers such as Doris Betts as the starting point for said discussion. It was quite intense, sometimes painful, very fruitful, very positive, very healing, filled with love and understanding and hope.

Great news! When I stand before God's throne, you won't be there to judge me, and I won't be there to judge you! That's up to God!

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--- plznotgut wrote:

Didn't know Doris Betts was a "Southern Christian" writer now.

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--- therabidrev wrote:


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--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

dadgum, never had a problem with you and have generally enjoyed your posts. Having said that, I have no idea what your problem is with what the rev said. If you don't think southerners paid a price during and after the war, you are clueless. Maybe you should do a little research into the polite atrocities the "genteel" northerners visited on southern women and families.

One of our famous civil war generals, Sherman, should have been hung as a war criminal, for war crimes. He used prisoners to shield his army on the march, and had southern prisoners executed in retaliation. These are well documented, and against the rules of warfare of every civilized nation, even at that time in history. He was also quoted as telling his officers to have his army "rape Atlanta"... and they did just that. I guess that was ok also.

You can't condemn the inhumanity of slavery, and then turn around and ignore the inhumanity the north inflicted on the south. While it might not have been "official" policy, they without a doubt silently encouraged it and turned a blind eye to it, doing absolutely nothing to stop it.

Edited to add. I didn't even bring up the condoned rape, theft, and even executions that were committed by Yankee troops and carpetbaggers.
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--- dadgumgame wrote:

Your love and togetherness post is the polar opposite of your previous one, which would be right at home at any Lost Cause gathering. I think it's safe to say that the 'multi' part of any multicultural flock would beg to differ with your contention that your ancestors and mine were the marginalized ones---to put it mildly. To put it bluntly, I'd love to see you deliver your message of Southern victimhood to the families of the majority of the athletes who you Rabidly follow. I don't think you'd be interrupted with any "amens".

On topic and aside from Rabidrev's pitiable historical slant, having lived all over the country I also think NC has as much if not more cultural affinity with the Midwest as the deep South. Chicago and it's environs felt very familiar to this Southern kid. Birmingham--not so much.

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dadgum, if your namecalling rant makes you feel better, so be it. I've done a little reading myself, and took every regional studies course UNC offered when I was a student there. My point was to try to explain why SOME regionally conscious Southerners (by no means all of us) feel like they do about their native region, so that outsiders might better understand. That is all. I neither want nor need your approval.

As for my ministry, just last night I led an adult education class, 2/3 of which was made up of persons of color. We had a 3 hour discussion of our future vision for the South, with the short stories of Southern Christian writers such as Doris Betts as the starting point for said discussion. It was quite intense, sometimes painful, very fruitful, very positive, very healing, filled with love and understanding and hope.

Great news! When I stand before God's throne, you won't be there to judge me, and I won't be there to judge you! That's up to God!

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Well, she's certainly well known as a Southern writer, and if you know much about her at all, she definitely identifies herself as a Christian, especially in her interview in "The Christ-Haunted South." No, Betts didn't and doesn't want to limit her audience to those who buy at Lifeway Book Stores, but her upbringing as an Associate Reformed Presbyterian in Iredell County profoundly shaped her sense of personhood, without question.

You want to see a big-10 fan prove he is an idiot of state like proportions, just read this PM I got.



From:Favre2Sterlingfor6
Subject:Shocked at your ignorance
Sent:Today 2:54 PM EST
Delete Reply Next Message
I have never seen a more ignorant poster than you on any site. Get over the ******* civil war and what people who are no longer even living did! No one gives a flying **** what happened more than a 100 years ago. If you're still upset about it tells me you wish slavery was never abolished.

As far as your southern culture being so different from people in the midwest you might be right. We are not stuck in the 1800's so we got that hole thing going for us.


Maybe the Big-10 WOULD take state. LMAO

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--- ShadowSpawne wrote:

You want to see a big-10 fan prove he is an idiot of state like proportions, just read this PM I got.



From:Favre2Sterlingfor6
Subject:Shocked at your ignorance
Sent:Today 2:54 PM EST
Delete Reply Next Message
I have never seen a more ignorant poster than you on any site. Get over the ******* civil war and what people who are no longer even living did! No one gives a flying **** what happened more than a 100 years ago. If you're still upset about it tells me you wish slavery was never abolished.

As far as your southern culture being so different from people in the midwest you might be right. We are not stuck in the 1800's so we got that hole thing going for us.


Maybe the Big-10 WOULD take state. LMAO

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I agree, they have that "hole thing" going for them.

Penn State is not leaving the B1G. They are moving heaven-n-earth to get their Hockey teams ready for the new B1G Hockey league which will play on BTN.

Of course, Hockey will not come close to the money-maker Football is..or even basketball. However, Hockey has been a money-maker in the Upper-Midwest in the WCHA, and it will be even a bigger BOOM for the B1G teams once the league starts.

I just thought I would throw this out there so all this "Penn St moving out of the B1G talk" will stop.....but I'm guessing that it won't.

While I doubt PSU is moving, it won't be over hockey. lol

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--- Gopher1968 wrote:

Penn State is not leaving the B1G. They are moving heaven-n-earth to get their Hockey teams ready for the new B1G Hockey league which will play on BTN.

Of course, Hockey will not come close to the money-maker Football is..or even basketball. However, Hockey has been a money-maker in the Upper-Midwest in the WCHA, and it will be even a bigger BOOM for the B1G teams once the league starts.

I just thought I would throw this out there so all this "Penn St moving out of the B1G talk" will stop.....but I'm guessing that it won't.

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--- kirksdad66 wrote:

B1G is in no way superior....to the SEC athletically.....you're already in their rearview mirror......and as drunk as your are right now......you know I'm right.....


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--- DraymondGreen wrote:

I think your AD would prefer playing in 27 degree weather on national television in front of 80K fans to playing in 70 degree weather on some obscure channel in front of 30K.

Plus, there are few towns in the country that compare to Big Ten towns. Your fans and players would be overwhelmed by the atmosphere. I've traveled to games all over the country and there is nothing that comes close to the Big Ten.

Fortunately for NC, your administrators are well aware of the Big Ten's superiority. See you in 2014!





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--- BamainCarolina wrote:

By the way, speaking of the Big Ten, I was just on my way home a little while ago and was listening to some of the Iowa-Nebraska game on satellite radio.

Game time weather conditions? 27 degrees with a wind out of the north at 20 mph.

Is this what we want?

As I sit here at my home in northeastern North Carolina enjoying a sunny day in the mid 60s, I say NO WAY to the Big Ten.

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I certainly hope he doesn't think that. In the last 20 years (or since the first SEC expansion) in the Big 3 (football, basketball and baseball) the SEC has won the following:

Football: 10 Football National Championships

Basketball: 6 Basketball National Championships

Baseball: 7 Baseball National Championships

23 Championships total

Note: All those championships were won by teams that were members of the conference.



By comparison, In the last 20 years (I'll even include Nebraska's football championships (2) and Maryland's basketball championship (1) even though these teams weren't even in the Big 10 yet) the Big 10 has won:

Football: 4 Football National Championships (2 of these were won by Nebraska)

Basketball: 2 Basketball Championships (1 of these were won by Maryland)

Baseball: 0 Baseball Championships

6 Championships total



I would also include all the other countless other championships won by SEC teams in non revenue sports, but I don't feel like looking it up right now. There are a lot of them, though.

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--- thebuckeye wrote:

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Quality post, and, welcome, thebuckeye.

Lets do eveybody a favor, and, bypass any further Civil War talk.

Rivalries are built on locale, and, familiarity. Before the ACC was formed in 1953, we had rivalries with the likes of UGA and Tennessee, and, South Carolina was in the ACC from 1953 to 1971, IIRC. So, there is plenty of history there. Which is my biggest personal reason for wanting the SEC over the Big 10.

Sure, we could build rivalries with B10 teams over time, but, those rivalries with the schools mentioned already existed. They were just dormant. We do not have that with anybody in the B10, save for UMD, and, they're not officially in yet.

You do raise a valid point about the South (ALWAYS capitalised) and the midwest having somewhat similar cultures. At least, more similar than with other parts of the country. The only thing is, y'all northerners talk funny. ;)

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Thanks for the compliment. I'm certainly okay with bypassing any Civil War talk. From your response it sounds like that discussion goes downhill in a hurry.

I understand the locale and familiarity concerns, as Ohio State appears to swapping traditional rivals like Iowa and Michigan State for Rutgers and Maryland. I would find it much easier to swap old friends for the likes of North Carolina and Dook. (My wife also pointed out that we'd be much more likely to travel to an away games in North Carolina, Maryland, and Virginia than Iowa, Minnesota, or New Jersey.)

Your y'all comment made me chuckle and reminds me of when I first moved to Austin and had to ask my new boss to clarify the difference between "y'all" and "all y'all." "Yous guys" sound kind of funny to us too, but we're okay with adopting your way of talking as long as you keep the BBQ, chicken and dumplings, and cornbread coming!

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You're welcome. Some of your Big 10 brethren have come over, and, made themselves look like prise arses with their silly comments, and, p-poor attempts at humor. Only a few bothered to talk about the topic at hand. The MSU fans surprised me the most, because we'd always have a good rapport with them. We have a great deal of respect for Coach Izzo, and, MSU itself.

Yeah, discussing the war gets too personal, and, occasionally, too ugly. Save that for the ZZL. Lets talk football over here.

Its losing ancient rivals thats been the worst part. We lost Wake Forest and Clemson as annual games when the divisional split occured. FSU, too. The 9-team ACC of '92-'03 was my favorite alignment. We are having a tough time filling Kenan Stadium as it is now with the teams we've been associated with for 60+ years. I cannot imagine it being filled the way we'd like if we were in the Big 10. We have no history with your membership. It'd be hard to sell a 'rivalry' with OSU, when we've only played four times in our histories.

You like the BBQ, chicken and dumplings, and, cornbread, huh? Silly northerner, you forgot the most important thing...the SWEET TEA! LOL.

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--- ButtCheese wrote:

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--- WesternStormer wrote:

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People need to educate themselves on just what Tier 3 content consists of, and, how much money they might get.

It is NOT the financial windfall many seem to think.

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KU gets about $8 million per year from Tier 3, Texas gets about $15 million per year. Hmmm... that's more than ACC teams get right now for Tiers 1 and 2.

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Do you know what all Tier 3 envelops?

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--- psu00 wrote:

I'm not a fan of super conferences. There was a lot to be said for the smaller regional conferences and independents - back in the day when each bball team played every other member of the conference twice each year. The influx of money which has become the sole deciding force on all actions is not good for college sports. I would have thought the NCAA would try to stop this long ago given the ability for money to corrupt and the likelihood that the super conferences abandon the NCAA eventually. I wish the ACC (and other conferences) would remain unchanged with their regional flavor. Unfortunately, if the rumors are true, and Louisville or Cincinnati are going to be asked to join the ACC- I don't think it stabilizes the conference. It fills a gap but looks a lot like what the big east did in desperately trying to fill spots of those who left. To stabilize the conference FSU, VA Tech, and Clemson have to completely give their allegiance to the ACC publicly. It's pretty clear this mess will continue for a while.

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If only the ACC could have added FSU and PSU simeulteneously. That would have been a cool league in all sports.