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Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a

Posted: 7/17/2014 9:32 AM

Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on- college-basketball/24624246/new-faces-new-places-c uonzo-martin-knew-it-was-time-to-go-when-he-left
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Posted: 7/17/2014 9:43 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


He said months after he took the job that he realized he was not a fit at Tennessee. Hamilton just needed a warm body to replace Pearl as he knew he was gone as well. Certainly Martin made the best decision for himself and Tennessee by leaving.
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Posted: 7/17/2014 10:19 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


I quit reading the article when Parish suggests that Martin being black had something to do with it being 'time to leave' UT. That is an absolute crock, and really lowers my opinion of Parish as a writer. Weak journalism at its finest.
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Posted: 7/17/2014 10:26 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


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Posted: 7/17/2014 10:57 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


It's really not rocket science.

The petition was started because:

1. At the time, we weren't winning, and hadn't won the prior 2 seasons, and our recruiting didn't look promising
2. Bruce was about to be on the market

Fans wanted Martin out because:

1. We weren't winning

After the Sweet 16 run, many had jumped back on board because... we started winning.  Others still wanted him out because they didn't think he could continue winning.

It's about wins.  Not race.

Very telling quote here.  "Martin acknowledged, openly, that he realized a few months after taking the Tennessee job that it probably wasn't the right job for him, but he said he still values the time spent in the SEC because of the learning experiences collected."

You cannot compete at the insane pace required to be among the elite teams in the country if you're at a job that you don't feel is right for you.  It's just not possible.  
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Posted: 7/17/2014 11:13 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


Yes, because there is no way racism exists in the south. noidea

I am not suggesting that is the sole reason he isn't here anymore and I am not saying that the administration felt this way at all. And neither does Parrish quite frankly. He just suggests that talking to people it was a factor in their opinion. But to pretend that it has nothing to do with it with the fans is just plain ignoring the fact that racism exists. Its not weak journalism just because YOU don't believe it or YOU choose to ignore it. Gary simply states racism as one of many reasons Martin may have not been a fan favorite. He even goes on to suggest it is "mostly" about him not being Pearl and Pearl was coming back. Weak journalism would be ignoring it could be and probably was a factor with some folks. Racism does not go away just because people choose to ignore it.

toevol wrote: I quit reading the article when Parish suggests that Martin being black had something to do with it being 'time to leave' UT. That is an absolute crock, and really lowers my opinion of Parish as a writer. Weak journalism at its finest.
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Posted: 7/17/2014 11:36 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


But Rain, there's racism everywhere. Boston and Chicago are two of the most segregated cities in the US. Oakland, CA and thing.

Cuonzo faced criticism in Knoxville because he was a high profile coach at the University of Tennessee. A very tiny pct may have had to do with his race. That tiny pct wasn't any greater than it would have been anyplace else in the country.


---------------------------------------------
--- RAINMAKER31 wrote:

Yes, because there is no way racism exists in the south. noidea

I am not suggesting that is the sole reason he isn't here anymore and I am not saying that the administration felt this way at all. And neither does Parrish quite frankly. He just suggests that talking to people it was a factor in their opinion. But to pretend that it has nothing to do with it with the fans is just plain ignoring the fact that racism exists. Its not weak journalism just because YOU don't believe it or YOU choose to ignore it. Gary simply states racism as one of many reasons Martin may have not been a fan favorite. He even goes on to suggest it is "mostly" about him not being Pearl and Pearl was coming back. Weak journalism would be ignoring it could be and probably was a factor with some folks. Racism does not go away just because people choose to ignore it.

toevol wrote: I quit reading the article when Parish suggests that Martin being black had something to do with it being 'time to leave' UT. That is an absolute crock, and really lowers my opinion of Parish as a writer. Weak journalism at its finest.


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Posted: 7/17/2014 11:39 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 



RAINMAKER31 wrote: Yes, because there is no way racism exists in the south. noidea

I am not suggesting that is the sole reason he isn't here anymore and I am not saying that the administration felt this way at all. And neither does Parrish quite frankly. He just suggests that talking to people it was a factor in their opinion. But to pretend that it has nothing to do with it with the fans is just plain ignoring the fact that racism exists. Its not weak journalism just because YOU don't believe it or YOU choose to ignore it. Gary simply states racism as one of many reasons Martin may have not been a fan favorite. He even goes on to suggest it is "mostly" about him not being Pearl and Pearl was coming back. Weak journalism would be ignoring it could be and probably was a factor with some folks. Racism does not go away just because people choose to ignore it.

toevol wrote: I quit reading the article when Parish suggests that Martin being black had something to do with it being 'time to leave' UT. That is an absolute crock, and really lowers my opinion of Parish as a writer. Weak journalism at its finest.
Explain to me how you come to the conclusion race was a part of it for the vast majority of fans.  Was it for some small minority  fans? Undoubtedly , because some people are prejudiced.   However, almost every time I heard the topic discussed Martin was praised as a very fine individual. It was his coaching abilities and his fit at UT after Pearl that was the issue: not the color of his skin. And it is very likely those same factors became very evident to Martin in a short time after he arrived as he suggested himself. Using race to explain the situation would appear to be pretty much of a reach. But hey, I'm all ears if you can show me otherwise. noidea
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Posted: 7/17/2014 11:42 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


I don't necessarily disagree, but the pure and simple reason ~ far surpassing all possible others ~ Cuonzo Martin didn't last at Tennessee was because he only made the NCAA Tournament one out of the three years he was here, and even that one year ~ though they made a nice little run ~ they barely sqeaked in.  And this is with two (and possibly three) future NBA players.  They should have been comfortably in all three years.  Like everybody says, it's all about getting into the Tournament.

Cuonzo would have been a fine fit for Tennessee.  He was, really.  I actually think, personality-wise, he was/is a lot like Phil Fulmer ~ close to the vest, always taking the high road, keeping his mouth shut, and "working like heck."

Racism?  Ah, well, there's always some of that out there, anywhere you go.  But if he had comfortably made the Tournament all three years like he should have, any "racist Tennessee fans" would have kept it to themselves.

Cuonzo not Pearl?  I don't think it makes any difference what kind of personality he had, or what style his teams played with, if he had comfortably made the Tournament all three of his years like he should have.

It's all about making the Tournament.  

I sure has hell agree with Cuonzo about at least this one thing:

"I honestly think me leaving is good for me and probably good for Tennessee," Martin concluded. "Like I said, there were a lot of wonderful people there. But, for me, it was time."

Yeah.  Exactly.  Cuonzo Martin is a GOOD MAN.  For a lot of reasons.  He's a GOOD MAN.

 
RAINMAKER31 wrote: Yes, because there is no way racism exists in the south. noidea

I am not suggesting that is the sole reason he isn't here anymore and I am not saying that the administration felt this way at all. And neither does Parrish quite frankly. He just suggests that talking to people it was a factor in their opinion. But to pretend that it has nothing to do with it with the fans is just plain ignoring the fact that racism exists. Its not weak journalism just because YOU don't believe it or YOU choose to ignore it. Gary simply states racism as one of many reasons Martin may have not been a fan favorite. He even goes on to suggest it is "mostly" about him not being Pearl and Pearl was coming back. Weak journalism would be ignoring it could be and probably was a factor with some folks. Racism does not go away just because people choose to ignore it.

toevol wrote: I quit reading the article when Parish suggests that Martin being black had something to do with it being 'time to leave' UT. That is an absolute crock, and really lowers my opinion of Parish as a writer. Weak journalism at its finest.
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Posted: 7/17/2014 11:43 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


No kidding.

And Parrish only suggests Martin being a black head coach in the south among many, many other factors. He didn't say it was an overwhelming factor. Matter of fact he said it was mostly about other things. It was one sentence in the entire story. My point was that the mere suggestion that racism could or may have played a part is not poor journalism as toevol suggested. It is simply reporting what he found in his research. Just because Toe doesn't agree does not make it poor journalism.


GVT11 wrote: But Rain, there's racism everywhere. Boston and Chicago are two of the most segregated cities in the US. Oakland, CA and thing.

Cuonzo faced criticism in Knoxville because he was a high profile coach at the University of Tennessee. A very tiny pct may have had to do with his race. That tiny pct wasn't any greater than it would have been anyplace else in the country.


---------------------------------------------
--- RAINMAKER31 wrote:

Yes, because there is no way racism exists in the south. noidea

I am not suggesting that is the sole reason he isn't here anymore and I am not saying that the administration felt this way at all. And neither does Parrish quite frankly. He just suggests that talking to people it was a factor in their opinion. But to pretend that it has nothing to do with it with the fans is just plain ignoring the fact that racism exists. Its not weak journalism just because YOU don't believe it or YOU choose to ignore it. Gary simply states racism as one of many reasons Martin may have not been a fan favorite. He even goes on to suggest it is "mostly" about him not being Pearl and Pearl was coming back. Weak journalism would be ignoring it could be and probably was a factor with some folks. Racism does not go away just because people choose to ignore it.

toevol wrote: I quit reading the article when Parish suggests that Martin being black had something to do with it being 'time to leave' UT. That is an absolute crock, and really lowers my opinion of Parish as a writer. Weak journalism at its finest.


---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 7/17/2014 11:45 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


Explain to me where I said or Parrish said it was the opinion of the "vast majority" of the fans and I'll answer your loaded question.


HallowedHillII wrote:
RAINMAKER31 wrote: Yes, because there is no way racism exists in the south. noidea

I am not suggesting that is the sole reason he isn't here anymore and I am not saying that the administration felt this way at all. And neither does Parrish quite frankly. He just suggests that talking to people it was a factor in their opinion. But to pretend that it has nothing to do with it with the fans is just plain ignoring the fact that racism exists. Its not weak journalism just because YOU don't believe it or YOU choose to ignore it. Gary simply states racism as one of many reasons Martin may have not been a fan favorite. He even goes on to suggest it is "mostly" about him not being Pearl and Pearl was coming back. Weak journalism would be ignoring it could be and probably was a factor with some folks. Racism does not go away just because people choose to ignore it.

toevol wrote: I quit reading the article when Parish suggests that Martin being black had something to do with it being 'time to leave' UT. That is an absolute crock, and really lowers my opinion of Parish as a writer. Weak journalism at its finest.
Explain to me how you come to the conclusion race was a part of it for the vast majority of fans.  Was it for some small minority  fans? Undoubtedly , because some people are prejudiced.   However, almost every time I heard the topic discussed Martin was praised as a very fine individual. It was his coaching abilities and his fit at UT after Pearl that was the issue: not the color of his skin. And it is very likely those same factors became very evident to Martin in a short time after he arrived as he suggested himself. Using race to explain the situation would appear to be pretty much of a reach. But hey, I'm all ears if you can show me otherwise. noidea
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Posted: 7/17/2014 11:48 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 



GVT11 wrote: But Rain, there's racism everywhere. Boston and Chicago are two of the most segregated cities in the US. Oakland, CA and thing.

Cuonzo faced criticism in Knoxville because he was a high profile coach at the University of Tennessee. A very tiny pct may have had to do with his race. That tiny pct wasn't any greater than it would have been anyplace else in the country.

Exactly and by all races. When people only mention the South, I know they are just trying to make it seem worse here and only from one race.

Gary says lots of people "think" his skin color was an issue but that doesn't imply they themselves think that or that what they "think" is true. He says Martin's problems were two-fold and neither one was because of his skin color.

Some people forget we hired a black coach 25 years ago. I guess Wade Houston got fired because he was black and not because of his pitiful coaching record.


"And lots and lots of people, quite frankly, think the color of his skin was an issue.


There's some truth to all of that, I think.

But Martin's problems in Tennessee were mostly two-fold:

  1. He was never going to be Bruce Pearl in UT fans' minds.
  2. Bruce Pearl was about to be back on the coaching market."
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Posted: 7/17/2014 11:52 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


I totally agree. Racism was a small factor, but probably a factor for some which is all that Mr. Parrish suggested. There were many more deciding factors in Martins departure than his color.


Glenstorm wrote: I don't necessarily disagree, but the pure and simple reason ~ far surpassing all possible others ~ Cuonzo Martin didn't last at Tennessee was because he only made the NCAA Tournament one out of the three years he was here, and even that one year ~ though they made a nice little run ~ they barely sqeaked in.  And this is with two (and possibly three) future NBA players.  They should have been comfortably in all three years.  Like everybody says, it's all about getting into the Tournament.

Cuonzo would have been a fine fit for Tennessee.  He was, really.  I actually think, personality-wise, he was/is a lot like Phil Fulmer ~ close to the vest, always taking the high road, keeping his mouth shut, and "working like heck."

Racism?  Ah, well, there's always some of that out there, anywhere you go.  But if he had comfortably made the Tournament all three years like he should have, any "racist Tennessee fans" would have kept it to themselves.

Cuonzo not Pearl?  I don't think it makes any difference what kind of personality he had, or what style his teams played with, if he had comfortably made the Tournament all three of his years like he should have.

It's all about making the Tournament.  

I sure has hell agree with Cuonzo about at least this one thing:

"I honestly think me leaving is good for me and probably good for Tennessee," Martin concluded. "Like I said, there were a lot of wonderful people there. But, for me, it was time."

Yeah.  Exactly.  Cuonzo Martin is a GOOD MAN.  For a lot of reasons.  He's a GOOD MAN.

 
RAINMAKER31 wrote: Yes, because there is no way racism exists in the south. noidea

I am not suggesting that is the sole reason he isn't here anymore and I am not saying that the administration felt this way at all. And neither does Parrish quite frankly. He just suggests that talking to people it was a factor in their opinion. But to pretend that it has nothing to do with it with the fans is just plain ignoring the fact that racism exists. Its not weak journalism just because YOU don't believe it or YOU choose to ignore it. Gary simply states racism as one of many reasons Martin may have not been a fan favorite. He even goes on to suggest it is "mostly" about him not being Pearl and Pearl was coming back. Weak journalism would be ignoring it could be and probably was a factor with some folks. Racism does not go away just because people choose to ignore it.

toevol wrote: I quit reading the article when Parish suggests that Martin being black had something to do with it being 'time to leave' UT. That is an absolute crock, and really lowers my opinion of Parish as a writer. Weak journalism at its finest.
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Posted: 7/17/2014 11:52 AM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


He could have just gone ahead and typed the word "Racism" in size 45 font, because he had to have known that was going to be the takeaway from his piece - that we got rid of CCM because he was black.  That's clearly not what he said, but that's going to be what a lot of readers infer.  If it was such a small factor, why mention that at all?  I know there are some racist idiots in our fanbase, but if I had to put a % on it of how much race factored into the fanbase's desire to get rid of him, I'd estimate less than 1%.
RAINMAKER1 wrote: No kidding.

And Parrish only suggests Martin being a black head coach in the south among many, many other factors. He didn't say it was an overwhelming factor. Matter of fact he said it was mostly about other things. It was one sentence in the entire story. My point was that the mere suggestion that racism could or may have played a part is not poor journalism as toevol suggested. It is simply reporting what he found in his research. Just because Toe doesn't agree does not make it poor journalism.


GVT11 wrote: But Rain, there's racism everywhere. Boston and Chicago are two of the most segregated cities in the US. Oakland, CA and thing.

Cuonzo faced criticism in Knoxville because he was a high profile coach at the University of Tennessee. A very tiny pct may have had to do with his race. That tiny pct wasn't any greater than it would have been anyplace else in the country.


---------------------------------------------
--- RAINMAKER31 wrote:

Yes, because there is no way racism exists in the south. noidea

I am not suggesting that is the sole reason he isn't here anymore and I am not saying that the administration felt this way at all. And neither does Parrish quite frankly. He just suggests that talking to people it was a factor in their opinion. But to pretend that it has nothing to do with it with the fans is just plain ignoring the fact that racism exists. Its not weak journalism just because YOU don't believe it or YOU choose to ignore it. Gary simply states racism as one of many reasons Martin may have not been a fan favorite. He even goes on to suggest it is "mostly" about him not being Pearl and Pearl was coming back. Weak journalism would be ignoring it could be and probably was a factor with some folks. Racism does not go away just because people choose to ignore it.

toevol wrote: I quit reading the article when Parish suggests that Martin being black had something to do with it being 'time to leave' UT. That is an absolute crock, and really lowers my opinion of Parish as a writer. Weak journalism at its finest.


---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 7/17/2014 12:01 PM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 



toevol wrote: I quit reading the article when Parish suggests that Martin being black had something to do with it being 'time to leave' UT. That is an absolute crock, and really lowers my opinion of Parish as a writer. Weak journalism at its finest.
I think if you read that again, that you will find that Parrish is not stating his belief that it was about color, but stating that there were some people he talked to that believed that was the reason he was not accepted at Tennessee.
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Posted: 7/17/2014 12:05 PM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


It absolutely IS poor journalism and here is why: If you are going to make accusations, then you must back that up with evidence. Parish didn't do that at all.....what he is doing is what half of the press in the country does and that is just assuming what happened 150 years ago is still prevalent now.
Well, it isn't any worse here than it is in any other part of the country. Just as GVT points out, Boston is FAR more racist than any place I have spent time, and that is supposed to be the bastion of education there. How can that be? Its not in the South.

Parish assertion is merely a crutch. Plain and simple.

RAINMAKER31 wrote: No kidding.

And Parrish only suggests Martin being a black head coach in the south among many, many other factors. He didn't say it was an overwhelming factor. Matter of fact he said it was mostly about other things. It was one sentence in the entire story. My point was that the mere suggestion that racism could or may have played a part is not poor journalism as toevol suggested. It is simply reporting what he found in his research. Just because Toe doesn't agree does not make it poor journalism.
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Posted: 7/17/2014 12:08 PM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 



birddog16 wrote: He said months after he took the job that he realized he was not a fit at Tennessee. Hamilton just needed a warm body to replace Pearl as he knew he was gone as well. Certainly Martin made the best decision for himself and Tennessee by leaving.

I agree completely. I believe Parrish nailed it with his staement that Martin was not Bruce Pearl and never would be.

I have noticed that there hasn't been any discussion of Pearl's remarks in the last wekk to 10 days where he essentially put us on notice that he was coming for revenge. Interesting talk for someone who claims to be a VFL.

If he is looking for revenge on someone, he need only look in the mirror. That is the person responsible for him losing his job here.
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Posted: 7/17/2014 12:18 PM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


Tucker I read it again, and I still come away with the same take that I had earlier. What evidence does Parish have to make that assertion? Who are his sources? Where is a quote from someone that knows this to be first hand?

It is empty journalism, and pointless to mention if you can't prove it. I will defend my belief passionately because I believe with this sort of crap floating around, all the strides surrounding race that have been made during my lifetime go up in smoke because people believe this stuff.

Mention facts if you are going to be a writer.


TuckerVol wrote:
toevol wrote: I quit reading the article when Parish suggests that Martin being black had something to do with it being 'time to leave' UT. That is an absolute crock, and really lowers my opinion of Parish as a writer. Weak journalism at its finest.
I think if you read that again, that you will find that Parrish is not stating his belief that it was about color, but stating that there were some people he talked to that believed that was the reason he was not accepted at Tennessee.
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Posted: 7/17/2014 12:36 PM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 


Race baiters are seriously the worst kind of people. Anyone who suggests race had anything to do with the Cuonzo situation it IS A TOTAL FREAKING IDIOT, unless somehow his race has something to do with him being a sh***y basketball coach, which obviously it doesn't.


"A huge piece of this gold medal goes to her. I wouldn't be here if not for her." -- Candace Parker, on dedicating her gold medal to former Tennessee coach Pat Summitt

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Posted: 7/17/2014 12:50 PM

Re: Interesting article on Cuonzo and UT. "Payback is a 



What happened 150 years ago? I think you need to do some historical research Toe. The Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964.

In no way shape or form did Parish use Racism as a crutch for his article. Matter of fact he went on to say that it was mostly about other things. I think you used his one comment on skin color to condemn the entire piece. He simply stated in one sentence that the color of Martins skin was a factor with some folks. IMO the fact that you picked out that one sentence in an entire article to choose not to read the rest, validates the fact that the racism subject is quite prevalent, as you suggest it isn't, and certainly still a hot button.



toevol wrote: It absolutely IS poor journalism and here is why: If you are going to make accusations, then you must back that up with evidence. Parish didn't do that at all.....what he is doing is what half of the press in the country does and that is just assuming what happened 150 years ago is still prevalent now.
Well, it isn't any worse here than it is in any other part of the country. Just as GVT points out, Boston is FAR more racist than any place I have spent time, and that is supposed to be the bastion of education there. How can that be? Its not in the South.

Parish assertion is merely a crutch. Plain and simple.

RAINMAKER31 wrote: No kidding.

And Parrish only suggests Martin being a black head coach in the south among many, many other factors. He didn't say it was an overwhelming factor. Matter of fact he said it was mostly about other things. It was one sentence in the entire story. My point was that the mere suggestion that racism could or may have played a part is not poor journalism as toevol suggested. It is simply reporting what he found in his research. Just because Toe doesn't agree does not make it poor journalism.
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