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Montana vs Brady

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Posted: 01/17/2013 11:19 AM

Montana vs Brady 


Curious about 49er fans reasoning on why Montana was better.  I personally would choose Montana over Brady as the best Ive seen.  SB wins, SB MVP's, pro-bowls, play off wins, etc are all numbers they share closely to each other, so I can understand the argument either way.

I hear a lot of people point out that Montana had the benefit of Jerry Rice as his primary WR compared to the also rans that Brady had.  In defense of that, I do point out that in the pre-free agency frenzy, that Montana had to face stacked Giants, Bears, and Redskins defenses year after year after year.  Those units had just as much continuity as the 49er offense did, and posed a great challenge of cohesiveness that the 49ers needed to overcome to be the team of the decade. 

Montana also faced NFL rules that favored the defense in the passing game, and offered far less QB protection.  Montana also excelled in KC leading the Chiefs to a 13-3(?) record in 93, while reaching the AFC CCG.  In 94, he out dueled the likes of Elway and Young in victories en route to another playoff berth.  I feel that stands to reason he could have been great nearly anywhere in the NFL.  We don't have that insight into what Brady would do elsewhere, and can only assume he would excell at a different location.  Brady also has zero SB rings, since the Patriots defense has taken a step back in recent years.  

Maybe its counterintuitive to add this, but there's no denying the 49ers were the team of the decade in the 80's.  No denying at all.  However lending itself to the kind of competition that the NFC had at that time, Bill Parcells Giants managed to go 3-0 against Montana in the playoffs.  If not for the Giants...then or now vs Brady, it could have perhaps been more easy to look differently at either Brady or Montana as they could have gotten more SB rings to seperate themselves in this debate.

    Which is the greatest?

  1. Poll closed on 01/24/2013
  2. Montana: 31 votes
  3. Brady: 5 votes
TecmoBowl -vs- R.B.I. Baseball.com
Nostalgia & strategic elements showcase the entertainment value Tecmo & R.B.I. still possess.

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Posted: 01/17/2013 1:04 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


Montana never lost a Superbowl.  Brady's lost 2.
TecmoBowler wrote: Curious about 49er fans reasoning on why Montana was better.  I personally would choose Montana over Brady as the best Ive seen.  SB wins, SB MVP's, pro-bowls, play off wins, etc are all numbers they share closely to each other, so I can understand the argument either way.

I hear a lot of people point out that Montana had the benefit of Jerry Rice as his primary WR compared to the also rans that Brady had.  In defense of that, I do point out that in the pre-free agency frenzy, that Montana had to face stacked Giants, Bears, and Redskins defenses year after year after year.  Those units had just as much continuity as the 49er offense did, and posed a great challenge of cohesiveness that the 49ers needed to overcome to be the team of the decade. 

Montana also faced NFL rules that favored the defense in the passing game, and offered far less QB protection.  Montana also excelled in KC leading the Chiefs to a 13-3(?) record in 93, while reaching the AFC CCG.  In 94, he out dueled the likes of Elway and Young in victories en route to another playoff berth.  I feel that stands to reason he could have been great nearly anywhere in the NFL.  We don't have that insight into what Brady would do elsewhere, and can only assume he would excell at a different location.  Brady also has zero SB rings, since the Patriots defense has taken a step back in recent years.  

Maybe its counterintuitive to add this, but there's no denying the 49ers were the team of the decade in the 80's.  No denying at all.  However lending itself to the kind of competition that the NFC had at that time, Bill Parcells Giants managed to go 3-0 against Montana in the playoffs.  If not for the Giants...then or now vs Brady, it could have perhaps been more easy to look differently at either Brady or Montana as they could have gotten more SB rings to seperate themselves in this debate.
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Posted: 01/17/2013 1:05 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


And never threw an interception either!

Quick math, which could be wrong...

83-122, 1,142 yards & 11 td's.

Joe Cool's passing games are ranked #1, 5, 9 & 24 by ESPN QB performance in a SB.

Steve Young is #2 btw...

Last edited 01/17/2013 1:14 PM by rogerforthehall

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Posted: 01/17/2013 1:13 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


what plann said

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.

 

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Posted: 01/17/2013 1:15 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


Montana didn't have Rice through his first 6 years and was saddled with cast offs from other teams.

Brady didn't have as bad of receivers as you think. Belichick although arrogant is very good at filling in the RIGHT talent for the job. It's not like he had the selection of receivers Alex had through his first 5 years. Go look and see. Not counting Vernon before he became the receiver he is, the best were Josh Morgan and Brandon Lloyd. I wonder what Brady could have done with that?

Also as you pointed out that unlike this league of parody, Montana would face several elite teams each year.

Basically in the big games Montana didn't choke, Brady ...


Suffering and rejoicing 49er fan since '69!
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Posted: 01/17/2013 2:13 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


I think they're pretty equal players. I'd toss Peyton Manning and Johnny Unitas in that group too. Steve Young and Otto Graham are pretty close behind.

I voted Montana, because aesthetically he played the position as beautifully as I've ever seen. I thought Young was pretty close to as good, but he didn't have quite the visual beauty playing the position as Montana. Young looked like an elite athlete, Montana looked like an elite artist. That's simplifying it, but kinda gets at my feeling. It's also entirely subjective, of course.
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Posted: 01/17/2013 2:24 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady Post Rating (1 vote)


Because Joe Montana to Jerry Rice on Tecmo Bowl was money. Not Bo Jackson money, but still money
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Posted: 01/17/2013 2:42 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


I'd toss Peyton Manning in that group...

Going to disagree with you on this...doesn't Peyton have 8 "one and done's"?  Career playoff record of 8 - 10. For big games, Peyton has come up pretty small several times, IMO.

Don't get me wrong, GREAT QB anyway you slice it, but not in the Montana vs Brady comparison.
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Posted: 01/17/2013 2:59 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 



Minstrel wrote: I'd toss Peyton Manning and Johnny Unitas in that group too.
Peyton with Joe Cool? Sorry Minstrel, I gotta disagree. Maybe in the regular season, but I'll take Joe every time when its win or go home.

career playoffs:

Manning
 
20 games, 9-11 record, 481-761, 63.2%, 5,679 yards, 32 TD's, 21 Int's, 26 yards rushing, 3 TD's, 88 rating

Montana

23 games, 16-7 record, 460-734, 62.6%, 5,772 yards, 45 TD's, 21 Int's, 314 yards rushing, 2 TD's, 95.6 rating

I don't think its even close. More often than not Manning loses in the playoffs, while Montana was slightly better than winning at a 2-1 ratio. Montana also has 13 more TD's on roughly the same amount of pass attempts and the same number of picks.
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Posted: 01/17/2013 3:30 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


Gotta go with plann. 4-0 speaks for itself.  There is no argument.


Why do I see two votes for Brady but no arguments for Brady??????

Last edited 01/17/2013 3:43 PM by uncleloggins

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Posted: 01/17/2013 3:41 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 



uncleloggins wrote: Gotta go with plann. 4-0 speaks for itself.  There is no arguement.


Why do I see two votes for Brady but no arguments for Brady??????
Agreed! That's like saying you're cutting the deficit by 1.2 trillion but won't tell what the cuts actually were!


Suffering and rejoicing 49er fan since '69!
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Posted: 01/17/2013 3:50 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


Most 'greatest QB ever' discussions that I've seen end with Brady and Montana being the two discussed, with Unitas being the third name brought up (he was sort of the first true 'superstar' QB, and, while he played in a very different era, he established many records and set the standard for the position for a long time).

Manning may eventually break all of the all-time records for passing yards, TD, etc., but, as magnificent as he can be at times, I don't think he's anymore in the 'top' QB discussion than the guy who currently holds all those records (Brett Favre). Manning's defense is typically that he played on teams that were not often very weak on defense and that he carried a much bigger part of his team's burden each year. That may be true to some degree, but if you look at some of his team's failures in the playoffs, he often seemed to be in the middle of why they lost games (4 INT vs. the Jets in 2002; 4 INT vs. the Patriots in 2003).

As others have said, he's very very good. In the discussion for top-5 all time, and firmly in the top-10. But his post-season failures loom large in a sport where post-season heroics define players more than mere stats do. Personally, I rank him in the 2nd tier, with Young, Elway, and Graham, and ahead of the next tier, which in my mind includes guys like Marino, Favre, Staubach, Bradshaw, and Baugh.

Last edited 01/17/2013 3:51 PM by pudding

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Posted: 01/17/2013 3:53 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 



questfor6 wrote:
Minstrel wrote: I'd toss Peyton Manning and Johnny Unitas in that group too.
Peyton with Joe Cool? Sorry Minstrel, I gotta disagree. Maybe in the regular season, but I'll take Joe every time when its win or go home.

career playoffs:

Manning
 
20 games, 9-11 record, 481-761, 63.2%, 5,679 yards, 32 TD's, 21 Int's, 26 yards rushing, 3 TD's, 88 rating

Montana

23 games, 16-7 record, 460-734, 62.6%, 5,772 yards, 45 TD's, 21 Int's, 314 yards rushing, 2 TD's, 95.6 rating

I don't think its even close. More often than not Manning loses in the playoffs, while Montana was slightly better than winning at a 2-1 ratio. Montana also has 13 more TD's on roughly the same amount of pass attempts and the same number of picks.

Montana was generally better in the playoffs, but not as much as the wins and losses suggest, IMO. Montana had much better teams around him, notably in the run game and on defense. If Manning had a sterling playoff record, he might well be ahead of Montana. I think he's a candidate for greatest quarterback ever and I think if he had been the quarterback on those 49ers' teams, the 49ers probably wouldn't have been worse off.

Last edited 01/17/2013 4:06 PM by Minstrel

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Posted: 01/17/2013 4:14 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


I don't fully agree. Manning has locked up and looked tight in bigger games. Again, it's easy to blame the team around him, but the team wasn't throwing multiple picks on ill-advised throws. Manning tends to avoid those in regular season games, but he has had a tendency to lose focus or 'get tight' in those big moments.

I don't know that Manning could have led the 49ers to that comeback against Cincinnati. I don't know that many could have, quite honestly. Brady is the closest example of someone who might have, which is why he's often compared to Montana.

It's a small margin, but it's still a margin. That it exists is enough, imo, to take Manning out of the very top QB discussion. A quick survey of most lists has him averaging around #5, and that sounds about right to me.
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Posted: 01/17/2013 4:16 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 



Minstrel wrote:
questfor6 wrote:
Minstrel wrote: I'd toss Peyton Manning and Johnny Unitas in that group too.
Peyton with Joe Cool? Sorry Minstrel, I gotta disagree. Maybe in the regular season, but I'll take Joe every time when its win or go home.

career playoffs:

Manning
 
20 games, 9-11 record, 481-761, 63.2%, 5,679 yards, 32 TD's, 21 Int's, 26 yards rushing, 3 TD's, 88 rating

Montana

23 games, 16-7 record, 460-734, 62.6%, 5,772 yards, 45 TD's, 21 Int's, 314 yards rushing, 2 TD's, 95.6 rating

I don't think its even close. More often than not Manning loses in the playoffs, while Montana was slightly better than winning at a 2-1 ratio. Montana also has 13 more TD's on roughly the same amount of pass attempts and the same number of picks.

Montana was generally better in the playoffs, but not as much as the wins and losses suggest, IMO. Montana had much better teams around him, notably in the run game and on defense. If Manning had a sterling playoff record, he might well be ahead of Montana. I think he's in the discussion for greatest quarterback ever and I think if he had been the quarterback on those 49ers' teams, the 49ers probably wouldn't have been worse off.
If you look at regular season wins and losses, Montana and Manning are pretty close, percentage wise.

Manning- 224 games started, 154-70, 68.75% of the time he wins

Montana- 164 games started, 117-47 record, 71.34% of the time he won

That's about a 2.5% difference, if Manning won at Montana's level he would have 160 wins, not very significant over 224 games.

Then you look at the playoffs (which matter the most) and Manning really drops off in win percentage. The losses may not all be his fault, but if his teams are good enough to consistently win in the regular season, why do they turn into a losing team in the playoffs?

Manning- 9-11, wins 45% of the time

Montana, 16-7, wins 69.5% of the time

No doubt the playoffs are harder than the regular season, but Manning's win percent drops 23.75% and Montana's only drops less than 2%. And that is why I believe Manning does not belong in the same discussion with Montana when talking about the all time greats.
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Posted: 01/17/2013 4:23 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 



pudding wrote: I don't fully agree. Manning has locked up and looked tight in bigger games. Again, it's easy to blame the team around him, but the team wasn't throwing multiple picks on ill-advised throws. Manning tends to avoid those in regular season games, but he has had a tendency to lose focus or 'get tight' in those big moments.

I'm not sure if it's a matter of "getting tight" or defensive game plans that (generally) haven't had to worry that much about the Colts running the ball. I've read that defensive coordinators are able to give more focus to each team they play in the playoffs, but I'm not entirely sure that's the case.

That said, I'll concede that among the four players I put in the top tier, Manning is the one I'm least sure of. I don't generally agree with the "post-season is what defines you" idea (that is, I don't believe in it for my own evaluations...I do believe that it holds true for most of the public), but I do think post-season success matters and might be enough to overcome the amazing success Manning has had in the regular season as a pure passer.

Last edited 01/17/2013 4:24 PM by Minstrel

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Posted: 01/17/2013 4:57 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


I don't think the lack of a running game has had to do with Manning throwing some ill-advised throws. He's had a tendency to do this more in the playoffs than in the regular season. It would be simple to assume it was his lack of a running game, but I've watched pretty much every one of those games, and he even looks tight. I like Peyton, and I tended to root for him (I rooted for him over Brady each time they met up), so it's not like I was even predisposed to see flaws in his game. But they've been there.

Against Baltimore last week, that wobbly throw that led to the final score was a classic Manning throwing a ball he shouldn't have moment in the playoffs.

I understand why some don't like to use playoffs as an arbiter, but I'd put the emphasis differently than how you've put it. Typically, I'd agree that if a player simply never had those opportunities to perform in the playoffs, that it'd be unfair to judge them upon their lack of playoff success. Barry Sanders, imo, is a classic example of a player who some feel is hurt by the Lions playoff futility during his career. I still consider Barry a better RB than Emmitt Smith, even though Smith had greater playoff success, because Barry still performed when he did get those rare opportunities to shine. His individual performance trumped his team's failures.

Manning's failures have often been his own, though. Was his defense so-so? Yes. Was his running game so-so? Sometimes (he had Edgerrin James early in his career, and he still threw mutiple INTs).  Even in his Super Bowl victory, he wasn't stellar (25-38, 247 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT; no defining drive or play). I sort of felt he won the MVP by default.

Put it this way. You say Manning could have done fine in SF back in the day. I say Montana would have won more than one Super Bowl with the Colts if he had played with that group. 2003? Edgerrin James was not the problem (he ran for 78 yards and a TD). The defense actually held New England to 5 FG (many on short fields after a Manning pick). The loss was primarily Manning. Put Montana in, and I think, the way the Colts were playing that day as a team, he wold have won that game.

Montana had bad games in the playoffs, too, so I'm not discounting that. That 49-3 loss to the Giants is one that's hard to forget (I still can envision Montana getting blasted by Jim Burt and getting carted off the field). But there's really no QB that I can think of that I'd rather have had managing the position with the game on the line than Montana. Not even Brady, whose lack of mobility, imo, is the reason I'd give the edge to Joe.
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Posted: 01/17/2013 9:01 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


i know they are not part of the poll but i would take marino or rodgers over any qb i've seen in my 54 years. i don't get to heavy in the sb thang because to me it's a position not an accomplishment
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Posted: 01/17/2013 9:15 PM

Re: Montana vs Brady 


Huh? You play for Rings! Jim Kelly was a no doubt Hall of Famer, but how much more revered would he be if he won a Super Bowl or two? He is not in the Top 10 discussion partly due to that. Heck if he would have won 2 or 3, he'd be up there, IMO.

GO NINERS!

---------------------------------------------
--- stepnez wrote:

i know they are not part of the poll but i would take marino or rodgers over any qb i've seen in my 54 years. i don't get to heavy in the sb thang because to me it's a position not an accomplishment

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 01/17/2013 10:09 PM

RE: Montana vs Brady 


Montana. I may be a little biased as a niner fan though.
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