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Just wondering !

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Posted: 7/12/2014 1:41 PM

Just wondering ! 


When it comes to the main 5 Sports in this country (and Yes , let's include soccer for now in honor of the World Cup ) , which Sports do you think is impacted more by its  Head Coach or Manager ?

I say , in order of  importance :

1 - Football 
2- Basketball
3- Baseball 
4- Hockey 
5- Soccer 
 
Do you guys agree ?

--- ALWAYS GIANTS ---

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Posted: 7/12/2014 9:03 PM

Re: Just wondering ! 


I'm going to say hockey because each coach has their own system, which can have a great impact on a team's success or failure....
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Posted: 7/13/2014 2:20 PM

Re: Just wondering ! 


I am thinking that there is no difference among professional sports in terms of what a HC or manager has to accomplish in preparing a team to win.  The difference may be during actual play.  Giving the dynamics of the 5 sports, I would place basketball, hockey and soccer in the category of most difficult to manage during the play. All three are in perpetual motion which to me make them the most difficult  to manage.  I believe that football has many more decisions than baseball.  So I would say that football is harder to manage during play than baseball.  

I tend to think there is no meaningful difference in terms of the impact that a HC has on basketball, hockey and soccer.
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Posted: 7/13/2014 7:54 PM

Re: Just wondering ! 


I would say Hockey, then basketball, mostly because the coach is making decisions all the time on personnel, who is in/out and when these things need to change.
In football, the HC makes maybe 5 decisions a game--going on 4th down, kicking a FG, challenges, but overall, most decisions are made by his coordinators if the team is set up that way.
Baseball, the manager may need to make a line up, but after that, he can snooze for a good part of the game. His main decisions would be now, a challenge, or when to take a pitcher out, or to pinch hit. After that he is useless

Soccer, do they have a HC or manager? Once the game gets underway, what really can he do. maybe a substitute, but that's about it. .
There is no 'I' in team
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Posted: 7/14/2014 4:38 AM

Re: Just wondering ! 



Jintsfan46 wrote: I

Soccer, do they have a HC or manager? Once the game gets underway, what really can he do. maybe a substitute, but that's about it. .
Actually, a soccer manager acts has a variety of roles. To an extent, he is a HC, offensive and defensive coordinator, special teams coach, and, in a small way, like a QB, You prepare for your opponent, decide on a formation that gives you the best chance to win with your players, individual matchups you want to exploit (while preventing the other team from getting the matchup they want), and your lineup based on the importance of the game, players health, and whether any players were booked in the previous game (yellow and red cards). Set pieces lead to more goals than just straight attacks, so specifics plays are designed, and called for when the manager sees a weakness to exploit. The manager has three subs for the whole game (including extra time). So, those subs have to be made wisely, in a timely manner, and strategically. If my team is up by one goal with 10 minutes left, I would be fool to take out a defensive player to add another attacker. As much as you may want to use a substitute early, it has to be absolutely critical because you never know when you will have to substitute a guy who got hurt. Formations can be changed during the game - although that's rare - and critical calls are made by the manager. When do you open up the attack, how will their team - and yours - counter, which player do you move to exploit an opening? You are analyzing their team, their players, their coaching, and the officiating all game long and making adjustments based on what you see.  Ideally, a soccer manager has a goalie he trusts to help with the defenders and an elite forward or mid that can help oversee the attack. Managers will be shouting and/or signing instructions from the side and explaining any major changes to the player they are subbing into the game so he can speak to the other players directly. There is, of course, the joy of working the officials. It's important to do because the ref is out there by himself but is allowed to consult with the linemen if his view was obstructed and/or they indicate they saw something he needs to know about. You don't want to lose your player to a red card when he didn't do what the ref thinks he did. The fourth officials (when available - most amateur matches don't have one) is also important since he's handling the subs and tracking stoppages to determine how much time he will add at the end of each half. At the half, you need to make adjustments to how you are going to approach the second half. If you have a big lead, you want to play a more defensive game w/o giving up the attack all together. And, of course, like any sport, you have to play psychologist. What motivates an individual player? How did you bring him up when he's down? How do you get a player to focus when the team has a big lead or his girlfriend dumped him? How do you keep a guy with a short fuse from self destructing? Given the passion and money involved in the big leagues, being a soccer manager in the pros is very much like the NFL. Win and make millions. Lose and get the ax. Sometimes, just a few weeks into the season. Last, but not least, like the NFL, pro soccer managers have an obligation to work with the press. Most of them enjoy it as much as the NFL HCs do. Most of the questions are just as stupid, as well.
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Posted: 7/14/2014 4:44 AM

Re: Just wondering ! 



I tend to think there is no meaningful difference in terms of the impact that a HC has on basketball, hockey and soccer.
If that was true, anyone could do it, and it be a $30,000 a year job for kids fresh out of college. Why would any owner in their right mind pay them millions? Why do so many fail so miserably? Why do a select few have success with different teams and have careers spanning, in rare cases, decades?
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Posted: 7/14/2014 10:58 AM

Re: Just wondering ! 



dweez115 wrote:
Jintsfan46 wrote: I

Soccer, do they have a HC or manager? Once the game gets underway, what really can he do. maybe a substitute, but that's about it. .
Actually, a soccer manager acts has a variety of roles. To an extent, he is a HC, offensive and defensive coordinator, special teams coach, and, in a small way, like a QB, You prepare for your opponent, decide on a formation that gives you the best chance to win with your players, individual matchups you want to exploit (while preventing the other team from getting the matchup they want), and your lineup based on the importance of the game, players health, and whether any players were booked in the previous game (yellow and red cards). Set pieces lead to more goals than just straight attacks, so specifics plays are designed, and called for when the manager sees a weakness to exploit. The manager has three subs for the whole game (including extra time). So, those subs have to be made wisely, in a timely manner, and strategically. If my team is up by one goal with 10 minutes left, I would be fool to take out a defensive player to add another attacker. As much as you may want to use a substitute early, it has to be absolutely critical because you never know when you will have to substitute a guy who got hurt. Formations can be changed during the game - although that's rare - and critical calls are made by the manager. When do you open up the attack, how will their team - and yours - counter, which player do you move to exploit an opening? You are analyzing their team, their players, their coaching, and the officiating all game long and making adjustments based on what you see.  Ideally, a soccer manager has a goalie he trusts to help with the defenders and an elite forward or mid that can help oversee the attack. Managers will be shouting and/or signing instructions from the side and explaining any major changes to the player they are subbing into the game so he can speak to the other players directly. There is, of course, the joy of working the officials. It's important to do because the ref is out there by himself but is allowed to consult with the linemen if his view was obstructed and/or they indicate they saw something he needs to know about. You don't want to lose your player to a red card when he didn't do what the ref thinks he did. The fourth officials (when available - most amateur matches don't have one) is also important since he's handling the subs and tracking stoppages to determine how much time he will add at the end of each half. At the half, you need to make adjustments to how you are going to approach the second half. If you have a big lead, you want to play a more defensive game w/o giving up the attack all together. And, of course, like any sport, you have to play psychologist. What motivates an individual player? How did you bring him up when he's down? How do you get a player to focus when the team has a big lead or his girlfriend dumped him? How do you keep a guy with a short fuse from self destructing? Given the passion and money involved in the big leagues, being a soccer manager in the pros is very much like the NFL. Win and make millions. Lose and get the ax. Sometimes, just a few weeks into the season. Last, but not least, like the NFL, pro soccer managers have an obligation to work with the press. Most of them enjoy it as much as the NFL HCs do. Most of the questions are just as stupid, as well.
Thanks for the heads up dweez112 on the duties of a soccer coach. Maybe I was more referring to in game management. How is it possible for the coach to do all those match ups and strategies during a gem if he really can't communicate with his players much?.
 I shows my little knowledge of soccer.
There is no 'I' in team
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Posted: 7/14/2014 11:33 AM

Re: Just wondering ! 



Jintsfan46 wrote:
Thanks for the heads up dweez112 on the duties of a soccer coach. Maybe I was more referring to in game management. How is it possible for the coach to do all those match ups and strategies during a gem if he really can't communicate with his players much?. 
 I shows my little knowledge of soccer.
You can communicate more than a casual observer would think. 1) Yell or signal. When we had a game plan to change things up at some point in the game, we had an agreed upon hand signal that we would use to let the players know "get everyone on the same page and do it now" 2) when the ball goes out of play by you and your team has possession, talk to your player doing the throw in 3) when guys get hurt  - or, to be 100% honest, take a dive - a few players often "drift" towards the sidelines for water - talk to your captain then 4) when you sub a guy in, you tell him everything you want to see done.5) communicate thru your goalie. When your team has a strong possession in the other half of the field, you yell to the goalie, who isn't doing much at that moment, and let him know to spread the word to the other players. 6) If you have a "Peyton Manning" type of player who you trust can assess what's happening on the field, you can discuss what you want to see happen before the game and allow him to make the judgement call when he sees the option open up.

Would it help soccer managers to have the option to call timeout to get everyone on the same page? I know about a dozen different times I wished I could have yelled, "TIME!". But that option doesn't exist. That's why it's so important to have the team on the same page BEFORE the game. Once elbows and cleats start flying, guys lose focus. If the game is being poorly called by the ref, it can get violent out there and guys will, and do, retaliate. It's pretty easy to lose control of your team when it gets like that. That's why you make sure you know who are your leaders, your thinkers, your hotheads, and who stays under control. You need to know not only what needs to be said, but who it needs to be said to.
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Posted: 7/14/2014 11:43 AM

Re: Just wondering ! 


I think the points dweez makes pretty much apply to hockey & basketball.  While we as fans don't always see or understand what the coach does -- we're fucused on the game and we can only see what the cameras show us when we're watching on TV.

I would have said football first, but mostly because the coaching staff radios plays into the QB or MLB....
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Posted: 7/14/2014 1:15 PM

Re: Just wondering ! 



Jintsfan46 wrote: 

Soccer, do they have a HC or manager? Once the game gets underway, what really can he do. maybe a substitute, but that's about it. .
Actually in Europe he is more referred to as ' Trainer '  and just Coach in the US.

--- ALWAYS GIANTS ---

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Posted: 7/14/2014 2:21 PM

Re: Just wondering ! 



FatandProud wrote:
Actually in Europe he is more referred to as ' Trainer '  and just Coach in the US.
Actually, in the Barclays Premiere League they are all called "Manager". Spain & France use "Manager", as well. Not sure what terminology Italy and Germany use, but I would think it is highly likely that they call them Manager, too. In the US, Manager is very slowly creeping in here, as the MLS strengthens ties between it and the rest of the world. But the vast majority still refer to themselves as "Coach" or "Head Coach". I never once was referred to, nor did I ever ask to be, as Manager. I was just "Coach". Manager felt forced to me, but I don't begrudge the guys in Barclays the title. Just like being a HC in the NFL is tough job, so is being Manager over there. There's a certain level of respect conveyed with the title and those guys have earned that.
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Posted: 7/14/2014 3:25 PM

Re: Just wondering ! 



dweez115 wrote:
I tend to think there is no meaningful difference in terms of the impact that a HC has on basketball, hockey and soccer.
If that was true, anyone could do it, and it be a $30,000 a year job for kids fresh out of college. Why would any owner in their right mind pay them millions? Why do so many fail so miserably? Why do a select few have success with different teams and have careers spanning, in rare cases, decades?
I could be wrong, but I don't think you read the post correctly.  I believe he was saying that a coach in basketball has similar impact to a coach in hockey, who has a similar impact to a coach in soccer.  Obviously a good coach in any of them will have a greater impact than a bad coach, but when looked at as a whole, the coaches have a similar impact across the three sports. 

Football and baseball coaches have a different impact.

That was my interpretation.
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Posted: 7/14/2014 3:36 PM

Re: Just wondering ! 


If you are considering the coaching staff as a whole, I would rank them as:

1) Football - I look at football essentially as a chess match between the two coaching staffs with the players acting as the pieces. Obviously a more skilled team should win, but the plays that are called in from the sidelines have a major impact on the game.

2) Hockey - With a limited number of line changes and a game that is moving as fast as hockey does, the coach must be like a conductor, making quick decisions and getting the appropriate lines out at all times. A bad matchup could make a huge difference in the game and the coach doesn't have much time to make that decision once his counterpart has made his own moves.

3) Soccer - Similar to hockey, but with even fewer substitutions, however a bit more time to make decisions. Matchups and strategy can be critical for a sport that typically does not have a ton of scoring. One goal can often make the difference in a game and that can easily come down to the proper substitution.

4) Basketball - I put basketball above baseball only because the coach's gameplan can make a big difference on a team (i.e. Phil Jackson and the triangle). During the game, I think this is very much a player's league and the stars make most of the decisions on the court. The coach can make a difference when it comes to substitutions, however I don't feel this often plays a major part in winning or losing.

5) Baseball - At this point in baseball's life cycle, a manager can pretty much follow a user guide (see Girardi, Joe) for in-game decisions. A great manager and coaching staff are determined more by their motivation and off-the-field preparation and development.
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Posted: 7/14/2014 4:19 PM

Re: Just wondering ! 


One more thing that, especially on the professional level all coaches/managers have to deal with...  The inflated ego of the players and off-field antics that can lead to suspensions and lost game time.
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Posted: 7/14/2014 9:07 PM

Re: Just wondering ! 


NewYawka interpreted my post correctly. I am saying that the coaching challenge for basketball, soccer and hockey are very similar and more difficult than baseball or football because basketball, soccer and hockey have far fewer breaks during play than baseball or football. A head coach in soccer may have the greatest impact since they get heavily involved with building a youth system that can continually provide new talent for the national and professional teams.

Last edited 7/14/2014 9:08 PM by GordonG

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Posted: 7/15/2014 9:00 AM

Re: Just wondering ! 


Gordon -- That's a good point regarding how soccer teams have youth development programs.  But I wonder how many soccer managers last long enough with any particular team to see the fruits of their labors in their team's youth program?  For instance, MLS has youth develpment programs.  I follow the NE Revolution and they now have first D-player (Diego Fagundez) on the roster.  He was first brought up about four years ago when he was 16.  The manager then was Steve Nicols and Nicols was let go that same season Diego came on board.  It's Nicols replacement (Jay Heaps) who reaps the benefits of Diego's talents....
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Posted: 7/15/2014 11:40 AM

Re: Just wondering ! 



NYGJim wrote: Gordon -- That's a good point regarding how soccer teams have youth development programs.  But I wonder how many soccer managers last long enough with any particular team to see the fruits of their labors in their team's youth program?  For instance, MLS has youth develpment programs.  I follow the NE Revolution and they now have first D-player (Diego Fagundez) on the roster.  He was first brought up about four years ago when he was 16.  The manager then was Steve Nicols and Nicols was let go that same season Diego came on board.  It's Nicols replacement (Jay Heaps) who reaps the benefits of Diego's talents....
I do not know how the Revs do it, but I have a buddy who works for the Columbus Crew. The Head Coach for the Crew - whoever it may be - does NOT recruit kids for the youth programs. Obviously, the head coach takes a long look at the top 17 & 18 year old at their Academy to see if there is a player that he can use. But the whole youth program is run by the team, for the team. The head coach really is not the driving force behind it. I think the Crew allows kids to join the program as young four years old. Again, that is just how the Crew does it. I would be lying if I said I knew if that model was the same one other teams use in other MLS cities.
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