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Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad

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Posted: 11/15/2013 1:06 PM

Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 


I know we all lament how poorly this season has been going.  There has been enough blame to go around, but one of the things that surprised me was the picture that the information below paints.

The Giants defense hasn't been as terrible as the scoring would indicate.  When you consider the significant number of points given-up by the offense and punt return TD's (42 points) and some of the crappy field position that have been set-up by the offense & specials (e.g., the interception on the first play of the season and the Jernigan opening kickoff fumble last week) that resulted in points off the defense.  The only game that stands out as a complete stinker for the defense is the Panthers game.

Anyway... I'm interested to share this information and get other opinions on the data that came from rsjem1979 at BBI.

Game by Game   
1 - @ Dallas: Cowboys 1st FG came after the INT on the season's first play plus two defensive TDs. Defense allowed 19 points.

2 - vs Denver: Broncos had a punt return TD plus a 36 yard TD drive after an Eli INT. Defense allowed 31 points (though I'd argue they played quite well while the offense kicked FGs all 1st half.

3 - @ Carolina: A complete disaster. 38 points

4 - @ Kansas City: Punt return TD, KC FG that became a TD after a dumbass penalty on the kick, then a 35-yd TD drive after an Eli Fumble when the game was out of reach. I've got the defense for 13 points.

5 - vs PHI: Eagles had TD drives of 25 and 38 yards after Giants turnovers. Give the defense 22 points.

6 - @CHI: Bears had a pick six. Giants defense allows 20.

7 - vs MIN: Vikings only TD came on a punt return. Defense allows 0.

8 - vs PHI: Eagles only TD came on a horrible punt snap. Defense allows 0.

9 - vs OAK: 17 of Raiders 20 points are a direct result of Giants turnovers. Defense allows 3.

In total, I've got the Giants defense solely responsible for 124 points in 9 games. It's not an exact science, but with the Giants having allowed 243 points, that's a pretty damning statement on the role offensive carelessness has played in that total.
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Posted: 11/15/2013 1:24 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 



BamaBlue wrote: I know we all lament how poorly this season has been going.  There has been enough blame to go around, but one of the things that surprised me was the picture that the information below paints.

The Giants defense hasn't been as terrible as the scoring would indicate.  When you consider the significant number of points given-up by the offense and punt return TD's (42 points) and some of the crappy field position that have been set-up by the offense & specials (e.g., the interception on the first play of the season and the Jernigan opening kickoff fumble last week) that resulted in points off the defense.  The only game that stands out as a complete stinker for the defense is the Panthers game.

Anyway... I'm interested to share this information and get other opinions on the data that came from rsjem1979 at BBI.

Game by Game   
1 - @ Dallas: Cowboys 1st FG came after the INT on the season's first play plus two defensive TDs. Defense allowed 19 points.

2 - vs Denver: Broncos had a punt return TD plus a 36 yard TD drive after an Eli INT. Defense allowed 31 points (though I'd argue they played quite well while the offense kicked FGs all 1st half.

3 - @ Carolina: A complete disaster. 38 points

4 - @ Kansas City: Punt return TD, KC FG that became a TD after a dumbass penalty on the kick, then a 35-yd TD drive after an Eli Fumble when the game was out of reach. I've got the defense for 13 points.

5 - vs PHI: Eagles had TD drives of 25 and 38 yards after Giants turnovers. Give the defense 22 points.

6 - @CHI: Bears had a pick six. Giants defense allows 20.

7 - vs MIN: Vikings only TD came on a punt return. Defense allows 0.

8 - vs PHI: Eagles only TD came on a horrible punt snap. Defense allows 0.

9 - vs OAK: 17 of Raiders 20 points are a direct result of Giants turnovers. Defense allows 3.

In total, I've got the Giants defense solely responsible for 124 points in 9 games. It's not an exact science, but with the Giants having allowed 243 points, that's a pretty damning statement on the role offensive carelessness has played in that total.

They are a mediocre bunch with the exception of maybe two or three players who are playing pretty good. I`ll give you the first six game because they were against pretty good teams with good QB`s BUT 7,8 and 9 were against Josh Freeman, Matt Barkley and Terrelle Pryor, three QB`s who don`t scare anyone. The defensive plan against these QB`s was very simple load up the box and take out the running game and let them try to beat you throwing the ball, simple enough right?. I just hope this three game win streak doesn`t go to the Giants defensive players heads because to be honest they haven`t beaten anyone.
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Last edited 11/15/2013 1:34 PM by BigBluePR

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Posted: 11/15/2013 1:25 PM

RE: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 


Here's an even better statistic: the Giants defense has allowed one touchdown in the last 14 quarters. That is one touchdown in 3 1/2 games. That is AMAZING. I don't care who they are playing. I don't care if it was against the four worst offenses in football, that would be impressive.

The "half" game was the second half against the Bears, who have a pretty good offense with Cutler at QB, and the Giants held them out of the endzone in that second half. Then they pitched a shutout at home against the Vikings, who while they were starting a quarterback that had no experience in their system, doesn't change the fact that they have one of the elite running backs in all of football. Then they pitched a shutout in Philadelphia against a team that is red hot since this game and threw for SEVEN touchdowns the week afterward. Then the Giants returned home and gave up only one defensive touchdown to the Raiders.

The Giants defense, regardless of what anyone thinks, is playing extremely well right now. I expect the Giants to ride it by playing very conservative on offense until they get into a game where the opposing team scores some points and forces the Giants to open up the offense. It isn't exciting but it works. The 1990 team did it all year and no one minded because they won most of their games. Well, since they've gone to this approach they are 3-0. Let's stick with it.

Good teams rely on their stars,
Great teams rely on each other.

Last edited 11/15/2013 1:25 PM by leagued

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Posted: 11/15/2013 1:30 PM

RE: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 



leagued wrote: Here's an even better statistic: the Giants defense has allowed one touchdown in the last 14 quarters. That is one touchdown in 3 1/2 games. That is AMAZING. I don't care who they are playing. I don't care if it was against the four worst offenses in football, that would be impressive.

The "half" game was the second half against the Bears, who have a pretty good offense with Cutler at QB, and the Giants held them out of the endzone in that second half. Then they pitched a shutout at home against the Vikings, who while they were starting a quarterback that had no experience in their system, doesn't change the fact that they have one of the elite running backs in all of football. Then they pitched a shutout in Philadelphia against a team that is red hot since this game and threw for SEVEN touchdowns the week afterward. Then the Giants returned home and gave up only one defensive touchdown to the Raiders.

The Giants defense, regardless of what anyone thinks, is playing extremely well right now. I expect the Giants to ride it by playing very conservative on offense until they get into a game where the opposing team scores some points and forces the Giants to open up the offense. It isn't exciting but it works. The 1990 team did it all year and no one minded because they won most of their games. Well, since they've gone to this approach they are 3-0. Let's stick with it.
Josh Freeman, Matt Barkley and Terrelle Pryor enough said.
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Posted: 11/15/2013 1:37 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 


One more thing to ponder about the Giants defense...  93 points!  That number comes from turnovers.  19 of the 28 turnovers in 2013 have ended with the Giants defense defending from their side of the 50-yard line!

So... even the most ardent critic can argue all you want about how bad the defense has been when you look at the stat sheets and the loss column.  A little scratching below the surface begins to reveal a pretty significant wrinkle. 

BBPR... even you have to think that with some improvement in the offense and special teams, the Giants are going to be a lot better than they are now.
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Posted: 11/15/2013 1:42 PM

RE: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 


Those three guys, regardless of what you think about them, are NFL quarterbacks. That is something that only 64-92 people in the entire country can claim to be. If you are an NFL quarterback, you are an elite quarterback. There is also 10 other players on the offense that can help the team score touchdowns, by the way. It's not ALL about the quarterback. But no, we're going to say the defense stinks no matter what. Fine by me, that'll just keep them grounded (in case they are reading this stuff).

Good teams rely on their stars,
Great teams rely on each other.

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Posted: 11/15/2013 1:57 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 



BamaBlue wrote: One more thing to ponder about the Giants defense...  93 points!  That number comes from turnovers.  19 of the 28 turnovers in 2013 have ended with the Giants defense defending from their side of the 50-yard line!

So... even the most ardent critic can argue all you want about how bad the defense has been when you look at the stat sheets and the loss column.  A little scratching below the surface begins to reveal a pretty significant wrinkle. 

BBPR... even you have to think that with some improvement in the offense and special teams, the Giants are going to be a lot better than they are now.

What you say it`s true Bama those are two areas that are hurting the team and need some improvement and there`s no doubt in my mind that if indeed they are improved the Giants will be a better team. There`s a saying that goes "Don`t count your chickens before they hatch" heard of it? Yes I know the Giants have won three games in a row but against who? Mediocre teams with mediocre QB`s and even in those games I saw more negatives than positives, no TD`s against the Eagirls, the OL played horrible against the Raiders and three's no doubt in my mind that if the Vikings would`ve started Ponder instead of Freeman the Giants would be 2-7. The Giants are 0-6 against good teams with good QB`s so like I said before, I`m not ready to start  chugging down the Blue Kool Aid just yet until the Giants show me what they`re really made of against a good team so until then I`m sticking with scotch with a splash of coconut waterbiggrin
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Last edited 11/15/2013 2:00 PM by BigBluePR

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Posted: 11/15/2013 2:06 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 


The defense we have right now, if we had that defense last season and in 2009, we would've made the playoffs both years.

To be fair, all of the 2010 season outside of 8 minutes against Philly, and the 6 game Super Bowl stretch was the best defense under Perry Fewell's DC tenure.
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Posted: 11/15/2013 2:14 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 


I'm not a big stats guy.  But my subjective view of the D's play is that they have really picked-it-up in the last 4 games and continue to improve.  I think a few easily identifiable things have happened that have contributed to the improvement:

A hobbled Webster is no longer out there and McBride has been better.

TT getting back has helped.  He is an instinctual playmaker.

Getting Will Hill in there has really helped, not only making plays himself but freeing Rolle to make plays also.

Beason has really helped.

JPP is rounding into better shape. 

Collectively, that has resulted in a less exploitable defense and more plays being made. 

I reject any notion that the improvement is explained solely by the level of the competition.
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Posted: 11/15/2013 2:46 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 


The bad defence of the first 4 games is completely on the Offense, and their dumb turnovers.
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Posted: 11/15/2013 2:49 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 



YeOldeMtnWasp wrote: I'm not a big stats guy.  But my subjective view of the D's play is that they have really picked-it-up in the last 4 games and continue to improve.  I think a few easily identifiable things have happened that have contributed to the improvement:

A hobbled Webster is no longer out there and McBride has been better.

TT getting back has helped.  He is an instinctual playmaker.

Getting Will Hill in there has really helped, not only making plays himself but freeing Rolle to make plays also.

Beason has really helped.

JPP is rounding into better shape. 

Collectively, that has resulted in a less exploitable defense and more plays being made. 

I reject any notion that the improvement is explained solely by the level of the competition.
I agree.  J Williams has also been playing well recently.  And Keith Rivers had a good game against Oakland.  JPP not playing like JPP has really hurt.  He did look like he was starting to improve and then he gets hurt against Oakland.  I would like to see more of Damontre Moore in the defensive mix.  All things considered,  the defense has not been the big problem this year.
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Posted: 11/15/2013 2:59 PM

RE: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 


Bad cornerback play has been cleaned up by eliminating Webster and installing McBride. Prince has really settled in as the number one corner. Will Hill has played some very good safety since returning from his suspension. And yes, the biggest improvement has been at linebacker where Beason and Williams have provided solid play especially in pass coverage (Williams) and run defense (Beason).

If this defense could get a play-making JPP back, it would go up a notch higher.

It is playing very well right now.

Good teams rely on their stars,
Great teams rely on each other.

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Posted: 11/15/2013 3:26 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 


We`ll see how good this defense really is when we go to Detroit to face the Lions and Megatron or at home against the Seahawks
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Posted: 11/15/2013 3:32 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 



BigBluePR wrote: We`ll see how good this defense really is when we go to Detroit to face the Lions and Megatron or at home against the Seahawks
Or we can look at what has been happening the past 9 games and see some light at the end of the tunnel.

Is this defense good enough to win games, by themselves against the better offenses in the NFL... no.  Very few defenses can make that claim with the current offensive oriented rules.  Is this defense better than their 3-6 record... I say yes.  The evidence is pretty strong when you factor in the catastrophic play of the offense and special teams.  If they can get their act together, the Giants can certainly improve on the play of the team over the first 6 games.

Yes... football is a team game.  The defense appears to be pulling their weight.  When will the offense and special teams get into the groove?
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Posted: 11/15/2013 3:37 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 



BamaBlue wrote:
BigBluePR wrote: We`ll see how good this defense really is when we go to Detroit to face the Lions and Megatron or at home against the Seahawks
Or we can look at what has been happening the past 9 games and see some light at the end of the tunnel.

Is this defense good enough to win games, by themselves against the better offenses in the NFL... no.  Very few defenses can make that claim with the current offensive oriented rules.  Is this defense better than their 3-6 record... I say yes.  The evidence is pretty strong when you factor in the catastrophic play of the offense and special teams.  If they can get their act together, the Giants can certainly improve on the play of the team over the first 6 games.

Yes... football is a team game.  The defense appears to be pulling their weight.  When will the offense and special teams get into the groove?
+1   The ST and Offense HAVE to stop the bleeding with the constant turnovers.....
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Posted: 11/15/2013 3:41 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 



BamaBlue wrote: BigBluePR wrote:

When will the offense and special teams get into the groove?
This Sunday, Baby!!!!  (giving his best Dickie V. impersonation)  biggrin
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Posted: 11/15/2013 3:46 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 



YeOldeMtnWasp wrote:
BamaBlue wrote: BigBluePR wrote:

When will the offense and special teams get into the groove?
This Sunday, Baby!!!!  (giving his best Dickie V. impersonation)  biggrin

YEAHH BABY AGAINST ANOTHER THIRD STRING QB!!!!!biggrin
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Posted: 11/15/2013 3:58 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 


"Here's an even better statistic: the Giants defense has allowed one touchdown in the last 14 quarters. That is one touchdown in 3 1/2 games. That is AMAZING. I don't care who they are playing. I don't care if it was against the four worst offenses in football, that would be impressive." - leagued

Eye see it doesn't take much to impress you. Eye also see you're bias. Nothing impressive about what the Giants D has done. I give them credit for playing hard but that's about it! They are playing with a sense of urgency & tenacity. But impressive? Naw! Impressive would be if Jints D can continue to play @ this level AND do the same to Dal, Wash, SD, Sea, & Det. In other words, elite QB's.

Not even talking about winning, just talking about Giants D playing this same way against the elite QB's we'll be facing. If we run the table, then that's another topic in itself.
 photo image_zpsde060c93.jpg
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Posted: 11/15/2013 4:18 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 



EyeC8Thang wrote:
Eye see it doesn't take much to impress you. Eye also see you're bias. Nothing impressive about what the Giants D has done. I give them credit for playing hard but that's about it! They are playing with a sense of urgency & tenacity. But impressive? Naw! Impressive would be if Jints D can continue to play @ this level AND do the same to Dal, Wash, SD, Sea, & Det. In other words, elite QB's.

Not even talking about winning, just talking about Giants D playing this same way against the elite QB's we'll be facing. If we run the table, then that's another topic in itself.
Did you watch any of the games this season...?  Honest question, because you continue to throw anicdotal claptrap in the presence of statistics and information. Your comments indicate that you are pretty set in your ways, but you're not expressing them in terms of the way the games have played out.

Are the Giants the only team in the NFL playing backup QB's?  Are the Giants manipulating the NFL front office to schedule teams that will be easy to beat?  Of course the answer to both questions is no.   Injuries are part of the game.  I don't think the Bronco's or Panthers are saying... 'yeah, we beat the Giants, but it doesn't matter because JPP was injured, Tuck didn't play, Stevie Brown and Aaron Ross are on IR.'  Come on...

I've tried to show that the defense has been playing with one hand tied behind their back.  They are being put into a tough situation, because of the collective play of the offense and special teams.  This isn't a breeze of sunshine up your skirt, it's a little different perspective than the same old "this defense stinks because they've given-up 243 points.  This defense is certainly not the 1986 Giants Big Blue Wrecking Crew, but it hardly the Cape Cod Community College JV.  What about the Giants run stoppers against non-3d string running backs... McCoy (twice), Peterson, Forte, Murray, Jamaal Charles...?

Hell... the offense has given up 21 points and special teams have given up 21 points, without the defense ever stepping onto the field.  That doesn't take into account that the Giants offense is in the top 5 teams in the NFL for 3-and-outs, or all of the other 19 times that a turnover has given the opponent field position on the Giants side of the 50 yard line.

Last edited 11/15/2013 4:25 PM by BamaBlue

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Posted: 11/15/2013 4:43 PM

Re: Something to ponder... the Giants Defense Ain't Bad 


True the NY Giants defense isn`t bad but that`s only when they play against back up or third strings QB`s.
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Last edited 11/15/2013 4:57 PM by BigBluePR

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