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Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
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Posted: 2/4/2013 4:24 PM
Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
Before you bite my head off, please take a moment to hear me out. My argument starts with the fact that I think the term "elite" gets thrown around way too much. Elite is defined as the best or most skilled members of a group. There is not an exact number limit on who can be defined as elite but it seems to have been watered down over the last few years. Now that the NFL is a passing league it seems that after every Super Bowl we have this discussion over whether or not the winning QB should be considered "elite". With Flacco and Eli it seems to be discussed more than a few others. This is probably because not only do they have similar demeanors both on and off the field but they have been quoted saying that they do believe they should be considered elite. To Eli's defense he was asked a question about it and responded confidently while Flacco just came out of nowhere and said he is elite.
In early 2008 during the incredible run Eli had a completion rate of over 60% with 6 TD's, and INT and a fumble. But he got the job done when it mattered most. More recently, in 2012 Eli completed 65% of his passes with 9 TD's, 1 pick and 1 fumble. Once again he stood tallest when we needed him to.
Flacco these past few weeks completed just under 58% of his passes with an incredible 11 TD's and no turnovers. He made plays on the run and much like Eli, never lost his cool in tight situations.
Both guys need to be recognized for their postseason performances. But is this enough to consider them "elite" QB's in the current NFL? I don't believe so. Being considered elite should only include 3-5 names if the pool is only 32-35 names (some teams like the wonderful Jets who use multiple QB's). In the past 4 seasons in terms of total QBR Eli has finished (from most recently) 10th, 15th, 6th, & 7th. Flacco has finished 25th, 14th, 12th, & 15th. Now QBR is not the measuring stick for deciding who is elite but it is a strong indicator of a QB's consistency throughout the season.
In my personal opinion (and I understand that it is my opinion and nothing more) I would argue that in terms of being in the elite class of QB's currently in the NFL, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady & Drew Brees are the ones who fit this mold with Aaron Rodgers barely on the outside looking in.
Out of Flacco and Eli, Manning certainly has the better argument for being considered elite with two rings, two Super Bowl MVPs and overall numbers. But neither should be considered elite in the NFL as of right now.
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Posted: 2/4/2013 4:29 PM
RE: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
Agree with everything until you made a ridiculous comment about Rodgers on "the outside looking in"...
Rodgers is the best QB in the NFL right now.. BAR NONE! You are spot on with everything else!!
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Posted: 2/4/2013 4:31 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
The problem is that there has to be room to recognize guys for what they bring to the table. Your list has issues too. I could bring to you playoff year after playoff year that Peyton Manning has choked. Is that elite? Drew Brees led the league in interceptions this year. Tom Brady hasn't won a Superbowl since the Patriots stopped cheating.
Fact is "elite" is what any particular person wants it to be. I could tell you there are roughly 64 NFL quarterbacks in the ENTIRE WORLD. So they're all elite. I could tell you that elite means playing your best when the most is on the line. So Brady and Peyton are out of the discussion. I could tell you elite is the top 10 QBs in the NFL right now. So a guy like Matt Ryan might make the list.
Everyone defines it differently and as such everyone can come up with reasons why their list of "elite" quarterbacks is the correct one. I haven't sat around and tried to define who the elite QBs in the NFL are, but I know I'm taking Eli Manning on my list.
Last edited 2/4/2013 4:32 PM by michugana
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Posted: 2/4/2013 4:45 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
shockey316 wrote: Before you bite my head off, speaking of heads has anyone heard this rumour of deers/nutsack spray being used by qb Joe Flaccid? lest anyone forget one of mr Flacco's mentor's is Scott Brunner. ex NYG Qb....a very smart qb who had an average arm, but awareness of not losing a game on his account. again, interesting that mr Flacco resembles mr Brunner in just about everything but arm. he has a pretty good one! |
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Posted: 2/4/2013 4:53 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
shockey316 wrote: Before you bite my head off, please take a moment to hear me out. My argument starts with the fact that I think the term "elite" gets thrown around way too much. Elite is defined as the best or most skilled members of a group. There is not an exact number limit on who can be defined as elite but it seems to have been watered down over the last few years. Now that the NFL is a passing league it seems that after every Super Bowl we have this discussion over whether or not the winning QB should be considered "elite". With Flacco and Eli it seems to be discussed more than a few others. This is probably because not only do they have similar demeanors both on and off the field but they have been quoted saying that they do believe they should be considered elite. To Eli's defense he was asked a question about it and responded confidently while Flacco just came out of nowhere and said he is elite.
In early 2008 during the incredible run Eli had a completion rate of over 60% with 6 TD's, and INT and a fumble. But he got the job done when it mattered most. More recently, in 2012 Eli completed 65% of his passes with 9 TD's, 1 pick and 1 fumble. Once again he stood tallest when we needed him to.
Flacco these past few weeks completed just under 58% of his passes with an incredible 11 TD's and no turnovers. He made plays on the run and much like Eli, never lost his cool in tight situations.
Both guys need to be recognized for their postseason performances. But is this enough to consider them "elite" QB's in the current NFL? I don't believe so. Being considered elite should only include 3-5 names if the pool is only 32-35 names (some teams like the wonderful Jets who use multiple QB's). In the past 4 seasons in terms of total QBR Eli has finished (from most recently) 10th, 15th, 6th, & 7th. Flacco has finished 25th, 14th, 12th, & 15th. Now QBR is not the measuring stick for deciding who is elite but it is a strong indicator of a QB's consistency throughout the season.
In my personal opinion (and I understand that it is my opinion and nothing more) I would argue that in terms of being in the elite class of QB's currently in the NFL, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady & Drew Brees are the ones who fit this mold with Aaron Rodgers barely on the outside looking in.
Out of Flacco and Eli, Manning certainly has the better argument for being considered elite with two rings, two Super Bowl MVPs and overall numbers. But neither should be considered elite in the NFL as of right now. To HELL with ELITISM this obsession with being elite is tired and just not realistic. As long as a QB gets the job done and the team wins, especially championships, one need not worry about his elite status or lack of elite status, both Eli Manning and Flacco have nothing to prove ever again. They both have experienced what most Quarterbacks will never experience, and that is the only thing that counts.  |
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Posted: 2/4/2013 4:55 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
at the end of the day it's all about championships, period. is Eli the best regular season QB? no,,but so what? has he proven to be money in the playoffs? all darn day and night,,,,stats are nice,,but championships are better,,,,just ask Dan Marino which he would rather have? passing records or rings? I think that answer is self explanatory.
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Posted: 2/4/2013 6:06 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
shockey316 wrote: Before you bite my head off, please take a moment to hear me out. My argument starts with the fact that I think the term "elite" gets thrown around way too much. Elite is defined as the best or most skilled members of a group. There is not an exact number limit on who can be defined as elite but it seems to have been watered down over the last few years. Now that the NFL is a passing league it seems that after every Super Bowl we have this discussion over whether or not the winning QB should be considered "elite". With Flacco and Eli it seems to be discussed more than a few others. This is probably because not only do they have similar demeanors both on and off the field but they have been quoted saying that they do believe they should be considered elite. To Eli's defense he was asked a question about it and responded confidently while Flacco just came out of nowhere and said he is elite.
In early 2008 during the incredible run Eli had a completion rate of over 60% with 6 TD's, and INT and a fumble. But he got the job done when it mattered most. More recently, in 2012 Eli completed 65% of his passes with 9 TD's, 1 pick and 1 fumble. Once again he stood tallest when we needed him to.
Flacco these past few weeks completed just under 58% of his passes with an incredible 11 TD's and no turnovers. He made plays on the run and much like Eli, never lost his cool in tight situations.
Both guys need to be recognized for their postseason performances. But is this enough to consider them "elite" QB's in the current NFL? I don't believe so. Being considered elite should only include 3-5 names if the pool is only 32-35 names (some teams like the wonderful Jets who use multiple QB's). In the past 4 seasons in terms of total QBR Eli has finished (from most recently) 10th, 15th, 6th, & 7th. Flacco has finished 25th, 14th, 12th, & 15th. Now QBR is not the measuring stick for deciding who is elite but it is a strong indicator of a QB's consistency throughout the season.
In my personal opinion (and I understand that it is my opinion and nothing more) I would argue that in terms of being in the elite class of QB's currently in the NFL, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady & Drew Brees are the ones who fit this mold with Aaron Rodgers barely on the outside looking in.
Out of Flacco and Eli, Manning certainly has the better argument for being considered elite with two rings, two Super Bowl MVPs and overall numbers. But neither should be considered elite in the NFL as of right now. I would argue that in terms of being in the elite class of QB's currently in the NFL,
Peyton Manning I won't argue this pick too much other than to say that Peyton is to the regular season as Eli is to the playoffs,
Tom Brady Eli beat head to head in two Superbowls...NEXT
Drew Brees while a great thrower, he is in a far more pass friendly system, and has had the benefit of a superior offensive line...yet has one less Lombardi than Eli.
Aaron Rodgers SMOKED him in his house in the playoffs, and beat him soundly again this year despite playing with an inferior overall team |
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Posted: 2/4/2013 7:08 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
I agree that elite is thrown around FAR too often. Elite is something that needs to be saved for a very select few. Johnny Unitas.......elite. Joe Montana.....dammit......elite. In spite of his postseason, Peyton Manning is elite. It kills me to throw him in there.....but I think you have to say that Brady is elite as well. Perhaps slingin Sammy way back in the day.......but can't say I saw him compete....so I don't know that I'm the best judge.
I think elite combines a beyond consistent winning record....extensive playoff success.....and having some quality at the position which is regularly practiced and isn't a flash in the pan. Unitas redefined the pocket QB position......and was one of the most accurate passers of his day, and has championships to boot. We all know Montana's accolades.....and his accuracy and clutch play are legendary. Peyton has been machine-like as a QB unlike any we've seen and has been incredibly consistent close to anything we've witnessed. Brady is also just consistently putting up ridiculous numbers and has been part of a dominant regular season organization along with various playoff wins. He also just incredibly gets better every season.
From there........you have the next rung.......whatever superlative you want to use. I think Rodgers could be next on the Elite squad......but time will be the ultimate judge of this.
Eli has been beyond outstanding. He has qualities that can allow him to exist on the elite plane. But......I don't know that he is ever going to qualify as truly 'elite' in the class of ALL NFL QBs to play the game.
Bradshaw is legendary b/c of his championship teams.........he was the leader.......he threw a helluva deep pass......but I don't know that he transformed the position significantly enough to qualify as elite. Marino was probably on par with Unitas when it came to quarterbacking. If you wanted to sub Marino in for Brady......I wouldn't get all chaffed about it. But he's just simply not backed it up in the playoffs.....although he wasn't terrible in the playoffs. Staubach just didn't do it long enough. Tarkenton was more historic b/c of his scrambling abilities but I don't know if that gets you into the 'elite' department.
At this time......I have no urge to trade my QB for Flacco, Brady, Peyton, or Rodgers......although I wouldn't mind Rodgers.....if I were to be totally honest. It doesn't bother me if people don't consider Eli 'Elite'.
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Posted: 2/4/2013 7:34 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
michugana wrote:
Fact is "elite" is what any particular person wants it to be. This is the comment that hits the fine point of the matter. People define "elite" by any parameters they choose then argue with others as if their own definition is universally accepted. Football is a team game and the ultimate stat is wins and losses. It is not Manning v. Brady, or Rodgers v. Flacco. It is the Giants v. the Patriots and Green Bay against the Ravens. People want to dissect teams into their component parts, but any fan worth their salt would take a big win over pretty stats.
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Posted: 2/4/2013 8:44 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
shockey316 wrote: Before you bite my head off, please take a moment to hear me out. My argument starts with the fact that I think the term "elite" gets thrown around way too much. Elite is defined as the best or most skilled members of a group. There is not an exact number limit on who can be defined as elite but it seems to have been watered down over the last few years. Now that the NFL is a passing league it seems that after every Super Bowl we have this discussion over whether or not the winning QB should be considered "elite". With Flacco and Eli it seems to be discussed more than a few others. This is probably because not only do they have similar demeanors both on and off the field but they have been quoted saying that they do believe they should be considered elite. To Eli's defense he was asked a question about it and responded confidently while Flacco just came out of nowhere and said he is elite.
In early 2008 during the incredible run Eli had a completion rate of over 60% with 6 TD's, and INT and a fumble. But he got the job done when it mattered most. More recently, in 2012 Eli completed 65% of his passes with 9 TD's, 1 pick and 1 fumble. Once again he stood tallest when we needed him to.
Flacco these past few weeks completed just under 58% of his passes with an incredible 11 TD's and no turnovers. He made plays on the run and much like Eli, never lost his cool in tight situations.
Both guys need to be recognized for their postseason performances. But is this enough to consider them "elite" QB's in the current NFL? I don't believe so. Being considered elite should only include 3-5 names if the pool is only 32-35 names (some teams like the wonderful Jets who use multiple QB's). In the past 4 seasons in terms of total QBR Eli has finished (from most recently) 10th, 15th, 6th, & 7th. Flacco has finished 25th, 14th, 12th, & 15th. Now QBR is not the measuring stick for deciding who is elite but it is a strong indicator of a QB's consistency throughout the season.
In my personal opinion (and I understand that it is my opinion and nothing more) I would argue that in terms of being in the elite class of QB's currently in the NFL, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady & Drew Brees are the ones who fit this mold with Aaron Rodgers barely on the outside looking in.
Out of Flacco and Eli, Manning certainly has the better argument for being considered elite with two rings, two Super Bowl MVPs and overall numbers. But neither should be considered elite in the NFL as of right now. If you're going to bring up the completion percentage, at the very least you should divulge on the actual "facts" of why his percentages the last few years have gone down. In short, you do know that Joe has the most attempts past 20 yards in the NFL correct?? Those SAME exact throws that have High Reward/High Incompletion results, therefore causing his overall completion percentage to drop drastically. If you look at his first couple of years, you'll see his completion percentages were above 60%...why is that??? Because simply put, he had NO DOWNFIELD THREAT, nothing but possession receivers. Again if you're going to bring up a factor to back your argument, make sure to include ALL of the details. 
"Its like...Someone Created him on Madden." ~Jacoby on Joe~ |
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Posted: 2/5/2013 1:17 AM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
theravenkidd wrote:
shockey316 wrote: Before you bite my head off, please take a moment to hear me out. My argument starts with the fact that I think the term "elite" gets thrown around way too much. Elite is defined as the best or most skilled members of a group. There is not an exact number limit on who can be defined as elite but it seems to have been watered down over the last few years. Now that the NFL is a passing league it seems that after every Super Bowl we have this discussion over whether or not the winning QB should be considered "elite". With Flacco and Eli it seems to be discussed more than a few others. This is probably because not only do they have similar demeanors both on and off the field but they have been quoted saying that they do believe they should be considered elite. To Eli's defense he was asked a question about it and responded confidently while Flacco just came out of nowhere and said he is elite.
In early 2008 during the incredible run Eli had a completion rate of over 60% with 6 TD's, and INT and a fumble. But he got the job done when it mattered most. More recently, in 2012 Eli completed 65% of his passes with 9 TD's, 1 pick and 1 fumble. Once again he stood tallest when we needed him to.
Flacco these past few weeks completed just under 58% of his passes with an incredible 11 TD's and no turnovers. He made plays on the run and much like Eli, never lost his cool in tight situations.
Both guys need to be recognized for their postseason performances. But is this enough to consider them "elite" QB's in the current NFL? I don't believe so. Being considered elite should only include 3-5 names if the pool is only 32-35 names (some teams like the wonderful Jets who use multiple QB's). In the past 4 seasons in terms of total QBR Eli has finished (from most recently) 10th, 15th, 6th, & 7th. Flacco has finished 25th, 14th, 12th, & 15th. Now QBR is not the measuring stick for deciding who is elite but it is a strong indicator of a QB's consistency throughout the season.
In my personal opinion (and I understand that it is my opinion and nothing more) I would argue that in terms of being in the elite class of QB's currently in the NFL, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady & Drew Brees are the ones who fit this mold with Aaron Rodgers barely on the outside looking in.
Out of Flacco and Eli, Manning certainly has the better argument for being considered elite with two rings, two Super Bowl MVPs and overall numbers. But neither should be considered elite in the NFL as of right now. If you're going to bring up the completion percentage, at the very least you should divulge on the actual "facts" of why his percentages the last few years have gone down.
In short, you do know that Joe has the most attempts past 20 yards in the NFL correct?? Those SAME exact throws that have High Reward/High Incompletion results, therefore causing his overall completion percentage to drop drastically. If you look at his first couple of years, you'll see his completion percentages were above 60%...why is that??? Because simply put, he had NO DOWNFIELD THREAT, nothing but possession receivers.
Again if you're going to bring up a factor to back your argument, make sure to include ALL of the details. Why are you trolling our board? Go and celebrate your Super Bowl instead of trying to pick fights online. |
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Posted: 2/5/2013 1:30 AM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
It is a lot of OVERRATED QB's in the NFL right now I will just leave it at that
But I agree it is only 4 Truly Elite QB's in the NFL: Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees...then it is a group after that who shows flashes of Elite and jumps in and out of it and that is Eli, Big Ben, Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan
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Posted: 2/5/2013 8:42 AM
RE: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
Sorry but if you have to "debate" who is an elite QB, take a break. Spending to much time watching the talking heads on the boob tube.
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Posted: 2/5/2013 11:40 AM
RE: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
KNOCK brees down a peg ...playing in perfect conditions(dome boy) much of the year!
Rodgers is simply the best QB today and in a dome, he's been fantastic to say the least !!!
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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:50 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
shockey316 wrote: Before you bite my head off, please take a moment to hear me out. My argument starts with the fact that I think the term "elite" gets thrown around way too much. Elite is defined as the best or most skilled members of a group. There is not an exact number limit on who can be defined as elite but it seems to have been watered down over the last few years. Now that the NFL is a passing league it seems that after every Super Bowl we have this discussion over whether or not the winning QB should be considered "elite". With Flacco and Eli it seems to be discussed more than a few others. This is probably because not only do they have similar demeanors both on and off the field but they have been quoted saying that they do believe they should be considered elite. To Eli's defense he was asked a question about it and responded confidently while Flacco just came out of nowhere and said he is elite.
In early 2008 during the incredible run Eli had a completion rate of over 60% with 6 TD's, and INT and a fumble. But he got the job done when it mattered most. More recently, in 2012 Eli completed 65% of his passes with 9 TD's, 1 pick and 1 fumble. Once again he stood tallest when we needed him to.
Flacco these past few weeks completed just under 58% of his passes with an incredible 11 TD's and no turnovers. He made plays on the run and much like Eli, never lost his cool in tight situations.
Both guys need to be recognized for their postseason performances. But is this enough to consider them "elite" QB's in the current NFL? I don't believe so. Being considered elite should only include 3-5 names if the pool is only 32-35 names (some teams like the wonderful Jets who use multiple QB's). In the past 4 seasons in terms of total QBR Eli has finished (from most recently) 10th, 15th, 6th, & 7th. Flacco has finished 25th, 14th, 12th, & 15th. Now QBR is not the measuring stick for deciding who is elite but it is a strong indicator of a QB's consistency throughout the season.
In my personal opinion (and I understand that it is my opinion and nothing more) I would argue that in terms of being in the elite class of QB's currently in the NFL, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady & Drew Brees are the ones who fit this mold with Aaron Rodgers barely on the outside looking in.
Out of Flacco and Eli, Manning certainly has the better argument for being considered elite with two rings, two Super Bowl MVPs and overall numbers. But neither should be considered elite in the NFL as of right now. My major criticism of your argument is that you are relying far too much on meaningless statistics to support your argument. The Fantasy Football mentality has far too much impact on the creation of data to support your opinion. For example - Drew Brees puts up great numbers every year because his offense throws the ball all over the field every game in a Dome no less. Put him in the windy, cold Northeast and I would suggest that his "numbers" would be no better than Eli's. Secondly - what does term "elite" mean? Eli has been Super Bowl MVP twice - that puts him in the company of how many other QBs in the history of the game? Eli is a mortal lock for the Hall of Fame. Third - Peyton has had how many post-season failures? His choking in the postseason is now legendary. Great regular season numbers - but he can't light a candle next to his brother in "crunch time" when it matters most. |
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Posted: 2/5/2013 12:51 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
shockey316 wrote: Before you bite my head off, please take a moment to hear me out. My argument starts with the fact that I think the term "elite" gets thrown around way too much. Elite is defined as the best or most skilled members of a group. There is not an exact number limit on who can be defined as elite but it seems to have been watered down over the last few years. Now that the NFL is a passing league it seems that after every Super Bowl we have this discussion over whether or not the winning QB should be considered "elite". With Flacco and Eli it seems to be discussed more than a few others. This is probably because not only do they have similar demeanors both on and off the field but they have been quoted saying that they do believe they should be considered elite. To Eli's defense he was asked a question about it and responded confidently while Flacco just came out of nowhere and said he is elite.
In early 2008 during the incredible run Eli had a completion rate of over 60% with 6 TD's, and INT and a fumble. But he got the job done when it mattered most. More recently, in 2012 Eli completed 65% of his passes with 9 TD's, 1 pick and 1 fumble. Once again he stood tallest when we needed him to.
Flacco these past few weeks completed just under 58% of his passes with an incredible 11 TD's and no turnovers. He made plays on the run and much like Eli, never lost his cool in tight situations.
Both guys need to be recognized for their postseason performances. But is this enough to consider them "elite" QB's in the current NFL? I don't believe so. Being considered elite should only include 3-5 names if the pool is only 32-35 names (some teams like the wonderful Jets who use multiple QB's). In the past 4 seasons in terms of total QBR Eli has finished (from most recently) 10th, 15th, 6th, & 7th. Flacco has finished 25th, 14th, 12th, & 15th. Now QBR is not the measuring stick for deciding who is elite but it is a strong indicator of a QB's consistency throughout the season.
In my personal opinion (and I understand that it is my opinion and nothing more) I would argue that in terms of being in the elite class of QB's currently in the NFL, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady & Drew Brees are the ones who fit this mold with Aaron Rodgers barely on the outside looking in.
Out of Flacco and Eli, Manning certainly has the better argument for being considered elite with two rings, two Super Bowl MVPs and overall numbers. But neither should be considered elite in the NFL as of right now. My major criticism of your argument is that you are relying far too much on meaningless statistics to support your argument. The Fantasy Football mentality has far too much impact on the creation of data to support your opinion. For example - Drew Brees puts up great numbers every year because his offense throws the ball all over the field every game in a Dome no less. Put him in the windy, cold Northeast and I would suggest that his "numbers" would be no better than Eli's. Secondly - what does term "elite" mean? Eli has been Super Bowl MVP twice - that puts him in the company of how many other QBs in the history of the game? Eli is a mortal lock for the Hall of Fame. Third - Peyton has had how many post-season failures? His choking in the postseason is now legendary. Great regular season numbers - but he can't light a candle next to his brother in "crunch time" when it matters most. |
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Posted: 2/5/2013 4:03 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
Here's my thought on the whole "elite" thing - Giants aren't replacing Eli anytime soon. Whether you love Eli or hate him, there's simply no one available to take his place He is the starter - period. Why debate over an adjective when there's simply no other option at the position? Two Super Bowl wins are two more than every single QB that has ever taken a snap for the Eagles since the Super Bowl era began. So, we really don't have it too bad. Elite or not, what difference does it make? Obviously, I don't know the man, but he has a happy family, more money than he could spend, and two Super Bowl MVPs to his name. I can't imagine he stays up at night worrying whether fans or sportswriters, view him as "elite" or not. Why debate over something so subjective?
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Posted: 2/5/2013 7:22 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
shockey316 wrote: Before you bite my head off, please take a moment to hear me out. My argument starts with the fact that I think the term "elite" gets thrown around way too much. Elite is defined as the best or most skilled members of a group. There is not an exact number limit on who can be defined as elite but it seems to have been watered down over the last few years. Now that the NFL is a passing league it seems that after every Super Bowl we have this discussion over whether or not the winning QB should be considered "elite". With Flacco and Eli it seems to be discussed more than a few others. This is probably because not only do they have similar demeanors both on and off the field but they have been quoted saying that they do believe they should be considered elite. To Eli's defense he was asked a question about it and responded confidently while Flacco just came out of nowhere and said he is elite.
In early 2008 during the incredible run Eli had a completion rate of over 60% with 6 TD's, and INT and a fumble. But he got the job done when it mattered most. More recently, in 2012 Eli completed 65% of his passes with 9 TD's, 1 pick and 1 fumble. Once again he stood tallest when we needed him to.
Flacco these past few weeks completed just under 58% of his passes with an incredible 11 TD's and no turnovers. He made plays on the run and much like Eli, never lost his cool in tight situations.
Both guys need to be recognized for their postseason performances. But is this enough to consider them "elite" QB's in the current NFL? I don't believe so. Being considered elite should only include 3-5 names if the pool is only 32-35 names (some teams like the wonderful Jets who use multiple QB's). In the past 4 seasons in terms of total QBR Eli has finished (from most recently) 10th, 15th, 6th, & 7th. Flacco has finished 25th, 14th, 12th, & 15th. Now QBR is not the measuring stick for deciding who is elite but it is a strong indicator of a QB's consistency throughout the season.
In my personal opinion (and I understand that it is my opinion and nothing more) I would argue that in terms of being in the elite class of QB's currently in the NFL, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady & Drew Brees are the ones who fit this mold with Aaron Rodgers barely on the outside looking in.
Out of Flacco and Eli, Manning certainly has the better argument for being considered elite with two rings, two Super Bowl MVPs and overall numbers. But neither should be considered elite in the NFL as of right now. If you are putting Brees in there then Eli, Flacco, Rodgers and maybe some others belong in there as well. Brees is massively overrated, IMO. Weak divison playing in a dome pumps up his stats.
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I'd rather be a disappointed optimist than a vindicated pessimist.
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Posted: 2/5/2013 8:39 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
Just as I anticipated my "argument" is being misinterpreted. Personally I don't care for the term elite, in fact I think it gets thrown around too much these days. As stated earlier it seems that every SB winning QB now has to have a debate from ESPN and all other sports networks on whether or not they belong in this group.
To anyone arguing that Brady isn't elite because he hasn't won a Super Bowl for a few years is flat out insane. The guy is in the argument for greatest of all time. The Peyton argument is solid because he has come up short so many times in the postseason. However it has not always been his fault. I remember his last game as a Colt he put his team up with less than two minutes to go in the fourth quarter and it was Jim Caldwell's pathetic Colts defense that allowed Mark Sanchez of all people to get his offense into field goal range. Peyton changed the position and is the reason the NFL currently is a passing league. A lot of hate for Brees because of the system he is in an because he's in a dome. He might have more favorable conditions but just because he's in a pass friendly system doesn't mean that just anyone can do it. I will agree that I should include Aaron Rodgers in what I consider elite.
As for people who seem upset that I didn't give Eli enough love, I'm a big fan of the guy, I really am. I am proud that he is our QB and hope he is for the next 6-7 years at least. But his lack of consistency makes it hard for me to put him in the same class as some of the other names I listed above. Has Eli given us two rings in epic fashion? Absolutely! Has he single handedly won games for us (first matchup against the Redskins this past season), most definitely. But he has also lost games for us and can find himself in quicksand more often than a Brady or a Brees or a Peyton or a Rodgers. Those four guys are more consistent across the board. Much like in college basketball where there are "blue blood" schools (Kansas, Indiana, Duke, North Carolina, UCLA & Kentucky) with other programs looking in, that is where I see Eli, just looking in. Doesn't mean he's terrible. Doesn't mean I don't like him. But I've watched every game of his professional career and his up and down play from week to week, in my opinion doesn't put him in the same class as others.
As for Flacco, he might be on his way. His postseason record is incredible and what he did this past year on his way to the Super Bowl was extremely impressive. I brought this subject up because it seems to be a hot topic for Eli and more recently for Flacco.
Last edited 2/5/2013 8:42 PM by shockey316
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Posted: 2/5/2013 10:33 PM
Re: Joe Flacco is Not an Elite QB....and neither is Eli Manning
Eli is elite. 2 championships. It was becuase of him that we even made the playoffs. Let us not forget that championships define the elites. But before anyone calls on plunkett, let me remind you that Eli won these championships in the 4th quarter on the biggest stage.
Eli is simply elite.
iG
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