I read a lot about how the founding fathers were brilliant men who created a document (or two) above reproach.

I read a lot about how all politicians are idiots.

So my question is.....are we devolving or were the founders alien beings?

Statesmen not politicians, they weren't wusses either, they wanted everyone to take responsibility for themselves and be their own masters. Lot different than the stupid wusses we have today.

Except for women and blacks.

The founders are over deified IMO.

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--- TheClemsonGoat wrote:



Statesmen not politicians, they weren't wusses either, they wanted everyone to take responsibility for themselves and be their own masters. Lot different than the stupid wusses we have today.

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Not all of them believed in slavery (for example John Adams). But the ones that didn't were smart enough to know that a fledgling government didn't have the resources to free slaves. I wish they would have freed slaves also at the Revolution. But what would have happened?

Slave owners just wave their hands and say, "You're free." Ok, what happens next? Where do they go? How do they make a living? We had no industrial base back then. And the slaves wouldn't have owned any land.

I agree, what some of the founders believed in was wrong. But I also agree the federal government at the time had no capacity to deal with the issue of freeing slaves.

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--- cgreg wrote:

Except for women and blacks.

The founders are over deified IMO.

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--- TheClemsonGoat wrote:



Statesmen not politicians, they weren't wusses either, they wanted everyone to take responsibility for themselves and be their own masters. Lot different than the stupid wusses we have today.

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--- fhellandjr wrote:

I read a lot about how the founding fathers were brilliant men who created a document (or two) above reproach.

I read a lot about how all politicians are idiots.

So my question is.....are we devolving or were the founders alien beings?

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I think the founders were well versed in how previous democracies had failed.

They knew that Athens failed b/c of mob rule. So they formed two houses of legislature. One that was more prone to mob rule (House). And one that was not (Senate). They also created rule changing in a way that it was very hard to pass laws or amend the Constitution. They figured that if the issue is important enough, its importance will last longer than a couple of months or even years.

They also knew that the Magna Carta failed b/c there is a tendency by people to give power to one man in times of peril. And that a lot of men, once given that power, have a hard time giving it back. Hence, they created three forms of government that are meant to check each other. They also wrote the Bill or Rights to protect the individual.

I think what makes them an amazing group is two things.

1) They understood their history.
2) They knew they didn't know everything. They knew the world would change, they just made it so that change would be very hard. For reasons mentioned above.

I don't believe either of those things are true. Founding fathers were a brilliant, accomplished group of men who managed to make some great compromises and are judged by history to be wildly successful (rightfully so). Lots of them wanted things to be a lot different and there are good arguments to be made for more perfect democratic systems though, so it's hard to just group them together and deify them. And not all politicians are idiots... many of the former politicians we look on reverently today- maybe even refer to as "statesmen"- were widely though of as idiots in their time. Abe Lincoln was such an idiot that half the country didn't want to stick around anymore.

We live in an age where CHarlie Sheen gets a standing ovation on a netwrok talk show

and a Conservative minded American would get called a "hater" if he doesn't believe President Obama is the best American in the last 100 years.




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--- fhellandjr wrote:

are we devolving or were the founders alien beings?

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Nailed it.

cgreg wrote: Except for women and blacks.

The founders are over deified IMO.

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--- TheClemsonGoat wrote:



Statesmen not politicians, they weren't wusses either, they wanted everyone to take responsibility for themselves and be their own masters. Lot different than the stupid wusses we have today.

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The founding fathers came before Darwin so there could not be any evolution from the founding fathers as there was no such thing as evolution before Darwin invented it. Sheez Jr use your gray matter to think sometimes.

I'm not African-American. If you are, I have a question. The founders could be generally known as believing in slavery. Slavery was horrific and is a permanent mark on our country's history. Honest question. Since they believed in such a way do you throw out everything else the stood for, believed in?

Good thing they freed a nation so we could prosper and see the error of our ways. It boggles my mind how people don't see how much of forward thinkers they were. they set the precedent for a "more perfect union". But like you said, they were just women hatin slave owners. F em. That obviously didn't know ****.

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--- cgreg wrote:

Except for women and blacks.

The founders are over deified IMO.

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--- TheClemsonGoat wrote:



Statesmen not politicians, they weren't wusses either, they wanted everyone to take responsibility for themselves and be their own masters. Lot different than the stupid wusses we have today.

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I agree Goat.  The original writings for the Declaration of Independence included the phrase "All white men are created equal" but it was decided that the word white should be omitted.  It seems to me that the practice of blacks being lesser than whites was a problem with some of the group who penned our independence.  I would say that counters the assertion of "except for women and blacks".  It like someone else stated, how does a fledging government fix that problem.

WestAshleyTiger wrote: I agree Goat.  The original writings for the Declaration of Independence included the phrase "All white men are created equal" but it was decided that the word white should be omitted.  It seems to me that the practice of blacks being lesser than whites was a problem with some of the group who penned our independence.  I would say that counters the assertion of "except for women and blacks".  It like someone else stated, how does a fledging government fix that problem.

That's not as important as deflating the image of the FF's to thereby lessen any side of a debate that dares bring them up.

Which suggests to me the Founders at least defined an issue to be confronted in the coming years, rather than bury it altogether. Agree to disagree,if you will, for the moment. Did they 'kick the can' down the road? Not in my view as there were clearly bigger fish to fry at the time.

Obviously there are others that view history in terms of delivering perfection, at least on a per case basis. My suggestion: give up reading history.

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--- WestAshleyTiger wrote:

The original writings for the Declaration of Independence included the phrase "All white men are created equal" but it was decided that the word white should be omitted.  It seems to me that the practice of blacks being lesser than whites was a problem with some of the group who penned our independence.  I would say that counters the assertion of "except for women and blacks".  It like someone else stated, how does a fledging government fix that problem.

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"brilliant" does not equal "perfect", "all knowing" or "able to see the future".

bril·liant/ˈbrɪlyənt/ Show Spelled [bril-yuhnt] Show IPA
adjective

1. shining brightly; sparkling; glittering; lustrous: the brilliant lights of the city.
2. distinguished; illustrious: a brilliant performance by a young pianist.
3. having or showing great intelligence, talent, quality, etc.: a brilliant technician.
4. strong and clear in tone; vivid; bright: brilliant blues and greens; the brilliant sound of the trumpets.
5. splendid or magnificent: a brilliant social event.

I think we should also disparage them for not solving the abortion debate.

Let me see if I can ask this a different way.....

Are there any great leaders/visionaries today or did we stop producing them after the 1770's, 1850's, etc?

fhellandjr wrote: Let me see if I can ask this a different way.....

Are there any great leaders/visionaries today or did we stop producing them after the 1770's, 1850's, etc?

I think it's that great leaders/visionaries don't go into politics.  Look at the types of people that go into politics.  For the most part, lying deceitful scum that are more attracted to the power/money of politics and it's lifestyle.

Falls back to the idea that we were sunk once politician became a career.

I agree in regards to career politicians being a bane to our existence but don't necessarily think they're all d-bags. 

I think most are very successful in another walk of life (usually business or the law) but somehow their leadership skills don't translate in Congress.  I think they had the power before becoming a politician and not the other way around.

Of course, it's hard to talk about effective leaders without the benefit of time (history).  As Trevor said earlier, Lincoln was not a very popular president while in office.