RoaringForkDevil wrote: The guy is doing a bang up job. When you look at the program ASU was before he got here, I think it is easy to say he's the best guy for the job.

Devil81 wrote: I wouldn't consider myself a Herb hater (I'm nowhere near Denver's level) but I'm still not convinced. 1 year of being a bubble team isn't going to all of a sudden make me rush out and put on a Herbavor shirt after the last 2 awful seasons. I'm enjoying this season but I also look at recruiting and don't see enough to make me think Herb will have sustained success here. Felix, Colvin and Pateev are leaving this year; Bachynski, Gordon and possibly Jahii next year. Our recruiting is going to have to improve dramatically to overcome that.

WilburDaffodil wrote:

Devil81 wrote: I wouldn't consider myself a Herb hater (I'm nowhere near Denver's level) but I'm still not convinced. 1 year of being a bubble team isn't going to all of a sudden make me rush out and put on a Herbavor shirt after the last 2 awful seasons. I'm enjoying this season but I also look at recruiting and don't see enough to make me think Herb will have sustained success here. Felix, Colvin and Pateev are leaving this year; Bachynski, Gordon and possibly Jahii next year. Our recruiting is going to have to improve dramatically to overcome that.

How many of those guys looked like stud recruits when they came in? This isn't Kentucky...you can't just recruit stars, they have to be developed. 

Never mind that if Carson had been eligible when Herb recruited him, there would have only been one awful season, and one decent season, and then this season. And it might have made a difference in the 2013 recruiting class if people could have seen last year what different Jahii could make.

I expect Edwards will be a very solid contributor next year, and Kearney the year after that. Hopefully the 2014 class will be bolstered by a couple of signees that like the idea of playing the way Carson and gang are, and possibly with Carson (though I'm sure the competition is saying "oh no way he'll be there" and this board is helping them with that.

I expect Carson to be in school at least 3 years...there's not much precedent for a guy his size being drafted high enough to make it worth leaving sooner.

Devil81 wrote:

WilburDaffodil wrote:

Devil81 wrote: I wouldn't consider myself a Herb hater (I'm nowhere near Denver's level) but I'm still not convinced. 1 year of being a bubble team isn't going to all of a sudden make me rush out and put on a Herbavor shirt after the last 2 awful seasons. I'm enjoying this season but I also look at recruiting and don't see enough to make me think Herb will have sustained success here. Felix, Colvin and Pateev are leaving this year; Bachynski, Gordon and possibly Jahii next year. Our recruiting is going to have to improve dramatically to overcome that.

How many of those guys looked like stud recruits when they came in? This isn't Kentucky...you can't just recruit stars, they have to be developed. 

Never mind that if Carson had been eligible when Herb recruited him, there would have only been one awful season, and one decent season, and then this season. And it might have made a difference in the 2013 recruiting class if people could have seen last year what different Jahii could make.

I expect Edwards will be a very solid contributor next year, and Kearney the year after that. Hopefully the 2014 class will be bolstered by a couple of signees that like the idea of playing the way Carson and gang are, and possibly with Carson (though I'm sure the competition is saying "oh no way he'll be there" and this board is helping them with that.

I expect Carson to be in school at least 3 years...there's not much precedent for a guy his size being drafted high enough to make it worth leaving sooner.

I'm not asking for every recruit to be 5 stars. But we've got 2 unranked recruits coming in next year. There's ground in between that.

Herb doesn't get a pass for Jahii being ineligible last year. In year 6 you shouldn't have to rely on an incoming freshman to prevent you from being awful.

And I'd start worrying about Jahii leaving after next year. He's already 20 and might not want to stick around until he's 23 to try his luck in the pros. Even if he doesn't stick in the NBA, he could still make a ton of money playing in Europe.

We've seen this pattern already. One really good player comes in and we have a year or two of success. Then he leaves and we're terrible. That pattern has got to stop.

Devil81 wrote: 
I'm not asking for every recruit to be 5 stars. But we've got 2 unranked recruits coming in next year. There's ground in between that.

Again, I ask...what were the guys that are "stars" now ranked when they went to ASU? Ratings on foreign players are also pretty unreliable.

Herb doesn't get a pass for Jahii being ineligible last year. In year 6 you shouldn't have to rely on an incoming freshman to prevent you from being awful.

There are many, many programs where losing a specific player at a particular position would make a huge difference. Imagine if UCLA hadn't gotten Muhammad? There are probably 100 or more possible examples of this.

And I'd start worrying about Jahii leaving after next year. He's already 20 and might not want to stick around until he's 23 to try his luck in the pros. Even if he doesn't stick in the NBA, he could still make a ton of money playing in Europe.

Somehow I don't see him taking the Reeves Nelson route.

We've seen this pattern already. One really good player comes in and we have a year or two of success. Then he leaves and we're terrible. That pattern has got to stop.

TheDashInn wrote: 1 tourney win in 7 years

that ain't "bang up"

RoaringForkDevil wrote: The guy is doing a bang up job. When you look at the program ASU was before he got here, I think it is easy to say he's the best guy for the job.

Seriously guys, can't we just enjoy this season.  I wasn't a Herb hater only because he is the coach of my favorite college basketball team, but the guy has changed everything that he has done since being at ASU.  It's like we have a new coach.  How many coaches would make this radical of a change instead of the "my way or highway" approach.  What he did was the football equivalent of going from a triple run option to a spread offense. 

MoDevil wrote: Last spring, Devil 81 predicted we would have 15-16 wins this year.

Devilution wrote:

Seriously guys, can't we just enjoy this season.  I wasn't a Herb hater only because he is the coach of my favorite college basketball team, but the guy has changed everything that he has done since being at ASU.  It's like we have a new coach.  How many coaches would make this radical of a change instead of the "my way or highway" approach.  What he did was the football equivalent of going from a triple run option to a spread offense. 

WilburDaffodil wrote:

Devil81 wrote: 
I'm not asking for every recruit to be 5 stars. But we've got 2 unranked recruits coming in next year. There's ground in between that.

Again, I ask...what were the guys that are "stars" now ranked when they went to ASU? Ratings on foreign players are also pretty unreliable.

Herb doesn't get a pass for Jahii being ineligible last year. In year 6 you shouldn't have to rely on an incoming freshman to prevent you from being awful.

There are many, many programs where losing a specific player at a particular position would make a huge difference. Imagine if UCLA hadn't gotten Muhammad? There are probably 100 or more possible examples of this.

And I'd start worrying about Jahii leaving after next year. He's already 20 and might not want to stick around until he's 23 to try his luck in the pros. Even if he doesn't stick in the NBA, he could still make a ton of money playing in Europe.

Somehow I don't see him taking the Reeves Nelson route.

We've seen this pattern already. One really good player comes in and we have a year or two of success. Then he leaves and we're terrible. That pattern has got to stop.

You mean like when Harden left and ASU actually finished better in the conference the next year?

We were worse the next year. Still an OK year but the conference was terrible and the improvement in the conference standings means nothing. We were in the tournament Harden's last year and got bounced in the 1st round of the NIT the next. Don't try and act like it was an improvement.

Not many programs can replace a top player. But most of the top players go to programs that can replace them. But if you look at the non-power programs in power conferences that lost first rounders, most of them are gonna be worse the next year.

There's a difference between being worse and being absolutely awful 2 and 3 years later. We had momentum and it was completely killed by recruiting failure after recruiting failure. One step back the next year is understandable. Being terrible and losing any gains we made when Harden was here is not.

Zonagrad wrote: Honest question:  What makes Sendek any better than Rob Evans?  Each reached the NCAA Tourney once with a star player and then regressed.  Sendek has just been given more time than Evans was afforded.