|
Extend Capers and give him a raise
|
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 6:42 PM
Extend Capers and give him a raise
No, I don't state this because GB gave up the 11th fewest yards and the 11th fewest points. The defense is not good. I say this because of the following:
Starting defense:
1) CJ Wilson-below average
2) Pickett-average
3) Raji -slightly above average
4) Matthews-all pro
5) Walden-horrible
6) Hawk-below average
7) Moses-below average (might get better)
8) Williams-slightly above average
9) Shields-average at best
10) Woodson-non factor-slightly above average at best
11) Burnett-average
Add to that the cast in reserve-Zombo, Worthy, et al.
Unless you significantly disagree with this analysis of the talent, then there is no way you can blame the coordinator for not making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. In fact, you can certainly make the argument that they outperformed their talent. The only positive is that Bishop (above average) and Perry (who knows-but not looking like a top player)were out.
Now, take a look at San Francisco's talent and the difference is embarrassing both on offense and defense.
We should be blaming the genral manager who has done a poor job in the early rounds on defensive players and offensive linemen. There is a reason we have a line of
Newhouse, TJ Lang, Dietrich-Smith and someone named Barclay. These are all free agents or low round choices. You can't be successful when you choose Sherrod, Harrell, Pat lee, etc. early and have to rely on average or below average talent.
So, if I was a hiring manager and I knew all the candidates were Packer followers, I would ask the following question:
What's the main problem on the Packers defense? Choices:
a) Talent
b) coordinator/scheme
c) a combination of the two
If you didn't answer a), I would not hire you.
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 6:53 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
Are you really Dom Capers mom?
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 6:54 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
veryoldman wrote: No, I don't state this because GB gave up the 11th fewest yards and the 11th fewest points. The defense is not good. I say this because of the following:
Starting defense:
1) CJ Wilson-below average
2) Pickett-average
3) Raji -slightly above average
4) Matthews-all pro
5) Walden-horrible
6) Hawk-below average
7) Moses-below average (might get better)
8) Williams-slightly above average
9) Shields-average at best
10) Woodson-non factor-slightly above average at best
11) Burnett-average
Add to that the cast in reserve-Zombo, Worthy, et al.
Unless you significantly disagree with this analysis of the talent, then there is no way you can blame the coordinator for not making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. In fact, you can certainly make the argument that they outperformed their talent. The only positive is that Bishop (above average) and Perry (who knows-but not looking like a top player)were out.
Now, take a look at San Francisco's talent and the difference is embarrassing both on offense and defense.
We should be blaming the genral manager who has done a poor job in the early rounds on defensive players and offensive linemen. There is a reason we have a line of
Newhouse, TJ Lang, Dietrich-Smith and someone named Barclay. These are all free agents or low round choices. You can't be successful when you choose Sherrod, Harrell, Pat lee, etc. early and have to rely on average or below average talent.
So, if I was a hiring manager and I knew all the candidates were Packer followers, I would ask the following question:
What's the main problem on the Packers defense? Choices:
a) Talent
b) coordinator/scheme
c) a combination of the two
If you didn't answer a), I would not hire you. I think your evaluation is a bit harsh - what is "average?" - the whole league or jsut the teams we've seen in the playoffs. I don't thiink Capers is the problem/or the solution. He's a solid DC. So what's the solution? Fire TT? No way The Packers need an infusion of a few really talented players that can elevate the entire Woodson -- little to suggest that TT is goign to find that talentin the draft. I say trim the deadwood and look for a few key FA's |
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 7:02 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
SaintVincent wrote:
veryoldman wrote: No, I don't state this because GB gave up the 11th fewest yards and the 11th fewest points. The defense is not good. I say this because of the following:
Starting defense:
1) CJ Wilson-below average
2) Pickett-average
3) Raji -slightly above average
4) Matthews-all pro
5) Walden-horrible
6) Hawk-below average
7) Moses-below average (might get better)
8) Williams-slightly above average
9) Shields-average at best
10) Woodson-non factor-slightly above average at best
11) Burnett-average
Add to that the cast in reserve-Zombo, Worthy, et al.
Unless you significantly disagree with this analysis of the talent, then there is no way you can blame the coordinator for not making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. In fact, you can certainly make the argument that they outperformed their talent. The only positive is that Bishop (above average) and Perry (who knows-but not looking like a top player)were out.
Now, take a look at San Francisco's talent and the difference is embarrassing both on offense and defense.
We should be blaming the genral manager who has done a poor job in the early rounds on defensive players and offensive linemen. There is a reason we have a line of
Newhouse, TJ Lang, Dietrich-Smith and someone named Barclay. These are all free agents or low round choices. You can't be successful when you choose Sherrod, Harrell, Pat lee, etc. early and have to rely on average or below average talent.
So, if I was a hiring manager and I knew all the candidates were Packer followers, I would ask the following question:
What's the main problem on the Packers defense? Choices:
a) Talent
b) coordinator/scheme
c) a combination of the two
If you didn't answer a), I would not hire you. I think your evaluation is a bit harsh - what is "average?" - the whole league or jsut the teams we've seen in the playoffs.
I don't thiink Capers is the problem/or the solution. He's a solid DC.
So what's the solution? Fire TT? No way
The Packers need an infusion of a few really talented players that can elevate the entire Woodson -- little to suggest that TT is goign to find that talentin the draft. I say trim the deadwood and look for a few key FA's Key FAs cost money. TT has not demonstrated that he's willing to do that. |
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 7:52 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
---------------------------------------------
--- veryoldman wrote:
No, I don't state this because GB gave up the 11th fewest yards and the 11th fewest points. The defense is not good. I say this because of the following:
Starting defense:
1) CJ Wilson-below average
2) Pickett-average
3) Raji -slightly above average
4) Matthews-all pro
5) Walden-horrible
6) Hawk-below average
7) Moses-below average (might get better)
8) Williams-slightly above average
9) Shields-average at best
10) Woodson-non factor-slightly above average at best
11) Burnett-average
Add to that the cast in reserve-Zombo, Worthy, et al.
Unless you significantly disagree with this analysis of the talent, then there is no way you can blame the coordinator for not making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. In fact, you can certainly make the argument that they outperformed their talent. The only positive is that Bishop (above average) and Perry (who knows-but not looking like a top player)were out.
Now, take a look at San Francisco's talent and the difference is embarrassing both on offense and defense.
We should be blaming the genral manager who has done a poor job in the early rounds on defensive players and offensive linemen. There is a reason we have a line of
Newhouse, TJ Lang, Dietrich-Smith and someone named Barclay. These are all free agents or low round choices. You can't be successful when you choose Sherrod, Harrell, Pat lee, etc. early and have to rely on average or below average talent.
So, if I was a hiring manager and I knew all the candidates were Packer followers, I would ask the following question:
What's the main problem on the Packers defense? Choices:
a) Talent
b) coordinator/scheme
c) a combination of the two
If you didn't answer a), I would not hire you.
---------------------------------------------
All of the above have regressed under Capers.......plenty of former pro bowlers on your list!
Once a coach, always a coach ------ and sometimes serving as "the devils advocate" ! |
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 8:45 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
gr8one1 wrote:
---------------------------------------------
--- veryoldman wrote:
No, I don't state this because GB gave up the 11th fewest yards and the 11th fewest points. The defense is not good. I say this because of the following:
Starting defense:
1) CJ Wilson-below average
2) Pickett-average
3) Raji -slightly above average
4) Matthews-all pro
5) Walden-horrible
6) Hawk-below average
7) Moses-below average (might get better)
8) Williams-slightly above average
9) Shields-average at best
10) Woodson-non factor-slightly above average at best
11) Burnett-average
Add to that the cast in reserve-Zombo, Worthy, et al.
Unless you significantly disagree with this analysis of the talent, then there is no way you can blame the coordinator for not making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. In fact, you can certainly make the argument that they outperformed their talent. The only positive is that Bishop (above average) and Perry (who knows-but not looking like a top player)were out.
Now, take a look at San Francisco's talent and the difference is embarrassing both on offense and defense.
We should be blaming the genral manager who has done a poor job in the early rounds on defensive players and offensive linemen. There is a reason we have a line of
Newhouse, TJ Lang, Dietrich-Smith and someone named Barclay. These are all free agents or low round choices. You can't be successful when you choose Sherrod, Harrell, Pat lee, etc. early and have to rely on average or below average talent.
So, if I was a hiring manager and I knew all the candidates were Packer followers, I would ask the following question:
What's the main problem on the Packers defense? Choices:
a) Talent
b) coordinator/scheme
c) a combination of the two
If you didn't answer a), I would not hire you.
---------------------------------------------
All of the above have regressed under Capers.......plenty of former pro bowlers on your list! Which ones? |
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 9:15 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
Is this thread a joke?
How many future Hall of Famers were on the Packers squad when Lombardi was hired after they won like 2 games?
Don't tell me it's just talent. The right coaching and system can squeeze every drop out of someone's talent. That was a disaster Saturday and 3 out of the last 4 years have ended that way.
Sure I would love more talent. That has to come also. But more importantly someone that knows how to coach and defend the Pistol in the new NFL. The Packers are screwed in the NFC unless they do something.
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 9:22 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
VandalayIndustriesInc wrote: Is this thread a joke?
How many future Hall of Famers were on the Packers squad when Lombardi was hired after they won like 2 games?
Don't tell me it's just talent. The right coaching and system can squeeze every drop out of someone's talent. That was a disaster Saturday and 3 out of the last 4 years have ended that way.
Sure I would love more talent. That has to come also. But more importantly someone that knows how to coach and defend the Pistol in the new NFL. The Packers are screwed in the NFC unless they do something. here is what you do to defend the pistol....remember than shot that SF laid on Harris when he was in the pile? Now, not quite that blatant a head shot in a pile...but you get a defender who can put a legit hard shot on the QB like that but legal whether he has the ball or not after the fake...and you do it 5 times per game...how is the pistol working for Wash right now? From your post...you are assuming..after watching Kaep run 56 yds for a TD..that better coaching will make Eric Walden find the ball and stay at home...36 yr old Woodson be able to take one wrong step and then catch the QB....and have Tramon Williams disengage off the WR block and push the QB in to the pursuit. If this can be done by firing Capers...do it. But I dont think it can...
Last edited 1/14/2013 9:25 PM by DoddsOnSports
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 9:28 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
VandalayIndustriesInc wrote: Is this thread a joke?
How many future Hall of Famers were on the Packers squad when Lombardi was hired after they won like 2 games?
Bart Starr, Jim Taylor, Paul Hornung, Jim Ringo, Forrest Gregg, Ray Nitschke....and he won 7 games...but then they added...Willie Davis, Henry Jordan, Herb Adderley and Willie Wood...and Emlen Tunnell...
Last edited 1/14/2013 9:30 PM by DoddsOnSports
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 9:31 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 9:43 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
I think your choice is effectively (a) keeping Capers and hoping that it's all a talent problem and TT will be able to add three all-pros to the D in the off-season, or (b) replacing Capers and hoping the talent already on the roster can do more with the right scheme and motivation. The most likely scenario if you keep Capers is the D next season will be about the same as it was this year.
---------------------------------------------
--- DoddsOnSports wrote:
If this can be done by firing Capers...do it. But I dont think it can...
---------------------------------------------
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 9:48 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
Bill Michaels? Impressive.
Even if I buy the bad coaching argument, the Packers have mid level talent at best on defense. No, Lombardi wouldn't have done much better.
Lombardi would have gotten better talent. Here is what the Packers replaced from 1958 to 1960-61.
On the defensive line they had Hanner, Kimmel, ford and Borden(?) and Lombardi kept Hanner and got Willie Davis, Henry Jordan and Bill Quinlan. On the offensive line, they only had Jim ringo and Lombardi got Skowronski, Thurston, and Gregg. In the defensive backfield they only had Hank Gremminger and added Willie wood, Herb Adderly and Jesse Whittenton. The addition of talent in a few years was amazing. It was one of Lombardi's greatest talents, not x's and o's.
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 9:58 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
All I know is Capers has had poor game plans, his team has looked unprepared, and he hasn't made adjustments when his game plan is not working. That is coaching. No doubt there is a talent gap, but I believe the current players would perform better with better coaching.
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 10:56 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
mufansince72 wrote: All I know is Capers has had poor game plans, his team has looked unprepared, and he hasn't made adjustments when his game plan is not working. That is coaching. No doubt there is a talent gap, but I believe the current players would perform better with better coaching. If you can explain what the game plans were and exactly why they did not work, then I might believe you. And, if you could be specific about what adjustments could have been made and been successful with the talent we had (and why), then I would believe you. Just complaining about faiure doesn't make a believable argument. I still stand by the belief that Capers did all he could with the amount of talent he had. The real answer is to strive to improve the defensive talent level at DT/DE, ILB, and S, and to see if you can get more out of Tramon Williams next year (shoulder should be even stronger). You should get more out of Raji next year, because he is in a contract year. Other answers are already on the roster in developing guys such as House, Hayward, Perry, Manning, and -maybe- the three-headed monster of Worthy/Daniels/Neal. The reality is that Ted Thompson will have to be a buyer in the free agent market and take some risk this off season. Thompson will understand that. He is not dumb. He took risks on Woodson and Pickett in the past, but has tended to be a contrarian investor (I use that term specifically because Thompson was a stock broker before coming back to the NFL under Wolf). The trick this off season is to figure out which risk(s) to take and at what price. However, the thing Thompson has going for him is a lot of salary cap room which can be cleared with the release of quite a few waning veterans. Ther are so many ways he could go in free agency...sign Jake Long and draft defense or sign Louis Delmas or Laron Landry and add front 7 players in the draft (plus an OT). Time will tell.
Last edited 1/14/2013 11:11 PM by CARLtheGREENSKEEPER
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/14/2013 11:02 PM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
CARLtheGREENSKEEPER wrote:
mufansince72 wrote: All I know is Capers has had poor game plans, his team has looked unprepared, and he hasn't made adjustments when his game plan is not working. That is coaching. No doubt there is a talent gap, but I believe the current players would perform better with better coaching.
If you can explain what the game plans were and exactly why they did not work, then I might believe you. And, if you could be specific about what adjustments could have been made and been successful with the talent we had (and why), then I would believe you.
Just complaining about faiure doesn't make a believable argument.
I still stand by the belief that Capers did all he could with the amount of talent he had. The answer is to strive to improve the defensive talent level at DT/DE, ILB, and S.
Other answers are already on the roster in developing guys such as House, Hayward, Perry, Manning, and -maybe- the three-headed monster of Worthy/Daniels/Neal. Well, the game plan to me looked like it was to put pressure on Kaeppernick. They did not account for the fact that was exactly what San Francisco wanted. They were not disciplined enough to maintain gap responsibility or contain him in the pocket. They let him escape constantly. An interesting stat today was that only three of Kaeppernick's 180 plus rushing yards came after contact. That means that no one came close to touching him. To me this is more coaching than talent. |
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2013 1:03 AM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
CARLtheGREENSKEEPER wrote:
I still stand by the belief that Capers did all he could with the amount of talent he had.
Over the last two years, the Packer defense literally has broken several NFL defensive records for being bad. So essentially, you must believe the talent on the Packers defense is the worst talent ever assembled by an NFL team if you believe Capers did all he could with what he was given. The talent isn't great but there are lots of coordinators out there that wouldn't have allowed the Packers D, if they were coaching it to give up the most passing yards in the history of the NFL, 2 - 200 yard rushing games to one player in a season, or a QB to run for 180 yards in a playoff game.
Last edited 1/15/2013 4:47 AM by Giant58
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2013 6:00 AM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
GB defense was totally unprepared to deal with a running QB despite the fact that the reason Harbaugh switched to Kappernick was the added dimension of his running ability.
When SF gets 579 yards and the 5 previous teams only a llow an average of 350 yards to SF.....it's
much more than a talent issue.
BTW......when Old Man states that Lombardi didn't know his X&Os.....he ought to look at the clinic tapes of Lombardi I have......not only was he five years ahead of the other coaches, but he knew how
to teach it!
Once a coach, always a coach ------ and sometimes serving as "the devils advocate" ! |
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2013 7:16 AM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
Didn't say Lombardi didn't know x's and o's. My point was aimed at a prior poster who claimed Lombardi took a group of talentless players and coached them into all-pros and champions. That is not what happened. If he hadn't gotten rid of much of the roster, we wouldn't have a trophy named after him.
He got rid of much of the roster and kept the ones with talent. It's not as easy today, but the same thing needs to happen. That is Lombardi's legacy, not schemes. In fact, Lombardi was not a great innovator. He didn't develop the one back offense, the shotgun, the blitz, play action, etc. He ran basic football plays, because he knew talent and knew they couldn't stop him. Sweep right, sweep left, buttonhook, stop and go.
He was less an innovator than he was a great motivator and judge of talent.
Having said all that, I do think the plan last week to play man coverage was an error. However, with Green Bays talent on defense, I believe the result would not have been much different. The only way you can believe it would be different is if you believe their talent is comparable. That's an impossible argument to make.
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2013 7:41 AM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
This is laughable. Now you say you disagree with his coaching decision on playing Man coverage? That's the whole point! This isn't a pre-season game or a week 2 game vs. the Jags. He made a major screw up. He needs to be fired.
As for Lombardi, the story always starts with him taking over all of these core players (JD listed them) who were awful one year leading to a 2 win season into champions soon and many Hall of Famers. You rarely hear the story of him getting the depth to become great. It's about maximizing every talent those core players had to make them elite. You make it sound like what will make the Packers great is the Don Barclay's and Eric Walden's of the world.
The point is we don't know what we have on this team. Could Burnett be elite? What happened to Tramon Williams? Why has AJ Hawk gotten worse? Where was BJ Raji this game? On and on. I agree they need new players and the Nick Collins loss was huge last year. Losing Bishop was a hit also.
But coaching is still a factor. Need an upgrade in both.
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
|
|
Posted: 1/15/2013 8:22 AM
Re: Extend Capers and give him a raise
I don't have a problem with Capers, but if the players don't belive in him, you might have to move on. I guess they'll figure that out in the exit interviews.
How about the Steeler's LB coach - Keith Butler?
Maybe promote Kevein Greene?
Whomever they pick must now the 3-4
If you want to move to a Tampa 2, there's Lovie or Raheem Morris
|
|
Reply |
Quote |
