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3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
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Posted: 1/14/2013 9:48 AM
3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
Any expert coaches here? Could the Read Option be the next West Coast offense? If so, what is the best system to stop it?
Something needs to change. Get rid of Capers and bring in a NCAA coach who knows how to defend this.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 9:56 AM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
this is a mindset...talent...as well as a scheme issue...
If SF had to play vs SF's defense...it would not run the QB because Willis, Bowman and the DBs would pound the crap out of him...just like Sea does...just like STL does...
but the Sea def coor could not properly scheme ATL from driving 50 yds in 2 plays for a winning FG in :31 ...
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Posted: 1/14/2013 9:57 AM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
VandalayIndustriesInc wrote: Any expert coaches here? Could the Read Option be the next West Coast offense? If so, what is the best system to stop it?
Something needs to change. Get rid of Capers and bring in a NCAA coach who knows how to defend this. I'm wondering the same thing. One thing is for sure, whatever the Packers were doing wasn't the right thing. I thought I'd seen everything, but Kaepernick's 52 yard run - had to be the easiest and longest QB run for TD I've seen. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 9:59 AM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
DoddsOnSports wrote: this is a mindset...talent...as well as a scheme issue...
If SF had to play vs SF's defense...it would not run the QB because Willis, Bowman and the DBs would pound the crap out of him...just like Sea does...just like STL does...
but the Sea def coor could not properly scheme ATL from driving 50 yds in 2 plays for a winning FG in :31 ... If you have a QB who is going to run for 150+ yards against you, I 'd say it's worth a few 15 yeard penalties to make sure he pays for it. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 10:06 AM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
SaintVincent wrote:
If you have a QB who is going to run for 150+ yards against you, I 'd say it's worth a few 15 yeard penalties to make sure he pays for it. ding ding ding...right on...it is a mindset...run the read option vs the Ravens when their defense was at full strength???... you dont take him out in a dirty way...you punish him...and if he is going to be a running threat...tag him ...Walden's mistake...just ignore the fake...whether the RB has the ball or not...let the others worry about the RB....but...pardon the pun...'Tattoo' Collin Kaepernick....once...twice...three times...he is not protected on a running play...Kaepernick gets hit and Harbaugh goes from genius to Rex Ryan faster than you can say 'Tim Tebow'...ask Mike Shanahan... 
Last edited 1/14/2013 10:09 AM by DoddsOnSports
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Posted: 1/14/2013 10:10 AM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
Kaepernick might be a one season wonder....? What he did to GB seemed far too easy. As others note in this thread, he is going to be a target and could be on IR a lot. Hope he plays against the Ravens in the SB. That could be very interesting.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 10:14 AM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
McCarthy says they adjusted and had a Spy on him, but you couldn't tell. I wonder who that was and when it was implemented. After they got to 45 points? Walden was benched.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 10:23 AM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
VandalayIndustriesInc wrote: McCarthy says they adjusted and had a Spy on him, but you couldn't tell. I wonder who that was and when it was implemented. After they got to 45 points? Walden was benched. That was Brad Jones, the WILB. Unfortunately, Kaepernick is a lot faster than Jones. A "spy" is always going to be one of the Inside LBs, possibly a Strong Safety if you want to shift an ILB to a tight end. I don't think the Packers wanted to expose Hawk and Jones to having to consistently cover Vernon Davis in the play-action game, so they didn't use the SS. That would have had "big play" in the passing game written all over it. So, it was pick your poison with our over-matche inside linebackers. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 10:26 AM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
tough to see with Fox closeups...[I hate those] but it looked like Brad Jones...was spying him...
Woodson did not look good losing ground in a sprint down the field...
this is a 'mentality' issue...hit him...in fact...let Gore go 30 yds as long as you hit Kaepernick...when a QB spikes a ball at you...make him pay...
GB has to find some players who will make him pay...Perry had the best hit of the yr...with his hit on Luck...perhaps we will find out that GB missed Perry more than some thought...
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Posted: 1/14/2013 10:29 AM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
DoddsOnSports wrote:
SaintVincent wrote:
If you have a QB who is going to run for 150+ yards against you, I 'd say it's worth a few 15 yeard penalties to make sure he pays for it.
ding ding ding...right on...it is a mindset...run the read option vs the Ravens when their defense was at full strength???... you dont take him out in a dirty way...you punish him...and if he is going to be a running threat...tag him ...Walden's mistake...just ignore the fake...whether the RB has the ball or not...let the others worry about the RB....but...pardon the pun...'Tattoo' Collin Kaepernick....once...twice...three times...he is not protected on a running play...Kaepernick gets hit and Harbaugh goes from genius to Rex Ryan faster than you can say 'Tim Tebow'...ask Mike Shanahan... This is 100% correct. But I put the responsibility on the coaches. The players obvisously werent given the message you typed there. If they were, SOMEONE would have done it correct at least once. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 10:37 AM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
MarquetteHoopsWarriors wrote:
This is 100% correct. But I put the responsibility on the coaches. The players obvisously werent given the message you typed there. If they were, SOMEONE would have done it correct at least once. CK had 170 yds before the first contact...GB does not have the players to be able to get to the same zip code as CK.....Woodson in 2007 could have done it...this is not easy...you have to play zone...keep him ahead of you...and be sharp and quick reacting...I dont think Walden fits the bill....Perry might...ask Luck... |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:07 AM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
Most of the damage wasn't even done on the read option, just scrambling up the middle on third and long pass plays. The D needs to play zone with two ILB between the first down yardage to gain and the line of scrimmage.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 1:21 PM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
WarriorNich wrote: Most of the damage wasn't even done on the read option, just scrambling up the middle on third and long pass plays. The D needs to play zone with two ILB between the first down yardage to gain and the line of scrimmage. Yes, that is what they need to do, but they do not have the right players on the 2012 roster to do that effectively (i.e., Des Bishop), so the defensive coordinator is hamstrung. Moreover, we got burned consistently by Vernon Davis in Week 1 playing various zone coverages. Hawk is a huge liability in any pass coverage scheme (he cannot run with a TE or RB and he cannot drop step quickly to his zone - all he is is durable and a signal caller). Hten, when we adjust scheme to cover up his weaknesses in zone coverage, our young DBs in nickel and dime have gotten fooled and missed their responsibilities, resulting in big plays and TDs. It is pick your poison, and the GBP focused on 1.) stopping Gore and 2.) stopping Davis (the 2 guys who killed them in Week 1). We gambled (there is a tradeoff facing them) that the rookie would be nervous or not up to the task emotionally in this moment. Well, he was, threading the needle in multiple instances and breaking the pocket, when we lost contain at the line of scrimmage. I can think of 5 Kaepernick running plays in which the guys who lost contain were responsible, because they did not stay in their gaps: Mike Neal on Kaepernick's first TD run to the left, Clay Matthews on 3rd and 10 with 1:48 in the 2nd, Walden (early in the game and then on the long TD run), and Hayward on a blitz untouched. Another big disappointment inthis game was Tramon Williams. He gave up a lot of one-on-one 3rd down catches to Crabtree, which kept us on the field and led to eventual SF scores. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 1:28 PM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
CARLtheGREENSKEEPER wrote:
It is pick your poison, and the GBP focused on 1.) stopping Gore and 2.) stopping Davis (the 2 guys who killed them in Week 1). tattoo Kaepernick...from Q1...deal with the rest later....soften him up...that is why I wanted Bowman on GB...a 3 down LB...how about the ability of Willis to guard Finley? Shades of Lovie guarding Bubba in Jan 2003...with Favre trying to make a play... |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 2:15 PM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
The 3-4 as Capers runs it puts the OLB (Walden/Mathews) in an impossible position with a team which has a running QB and who also is a good passer----more and more of these types lately.
e.g. at the start of play action the OLB is either going to freeze at rushing the passer thinking it might be a run or he's going to gamble and guess pass. If he thinks pass and it is a pass he got a late start on rushing the passer----if he guesses pass and it's a run he rushes the passer and isn't in position to contain Kapernick.
another situation not off play action-----the QB drops back to pass and our OLBs rush the passer-----meanwhile a RB goes out into the area, which the OLB released from/vacated and no one there in time to prevent the pass and a run up the sideline----this led to two(tds) in the first half. Now Carl tells us Jones is suppose to comeover and cover the RB, but where was he? no where to be found. Later on yes, but then he was so conscious of the RB near the sideline that he cheated toward that area and wasn't in position to take on Kapernick's runs inside.
The worst case of poor coaching I think I've ever seen in the NFL since Scooter McClean. I say fire Capers, as the players will have little or no confidence in him in the future----even if in the unlikely event he is able to right the ship!
Once a coach, always a coach ------ and sometimes serving as "the devils advocate" ! |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 2:36 PM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
gr8one1 wrote: The 3-4 as Capers runs it puts the OLB (Walden/Mathews) in an impossible position with a team which has a running QB and who also is a good passer----more and more of these types lately.
e.g. at the start of play action the OLB is either going to freeze at rushing the passer thinking it might be a run or he's going to gamble and guess pass. If he thinks pass and it is a pass he got a late start on rushing the passer----if he guesses pass and it's a run he rushes the passer and isn't in position to contain Kapernick.
another situation not off play action-----the QB drops back to pass and our OLBs rush the passer-----meanwhile a RB goes out into the area, which the OLB released from/vacated and no one there in time to prevent the pass and a run up the sideline----this led to two(tds) in the first half. Now Carl tells us Jones is suppose to comeover and cover the RB, but where was he? no where to be found. Later on yes, but then he was so conscious of the RB near the sideline that he cheated toward that area and wasn't in position to take on Kapernick's runs inside.
The worst case of poor coaching I think I've ever seen in the NFL since Scooter McClean. I say fire Capers, as the players will have little or no confidence in him in the future----even if in the unlikely event he is able to right the ship! You can fire Capers...and then when you play SF...with Walden at LOLB and Woodson at SS...if they go for the play fake...and then are slow to react...and the outside CB is Tramon Williams finesse CB play...then you are likely to see some of the worst coaching ever again next yr... Vince Lombardi cannot make Bubba Franks, Keith Jackson... you need more speed...more size and more toughness...even Woodson said that...but he forgot to mention 'youth' |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 2:50 PM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
gr8one1 wrote: The 3-4 as Capers runs it puts the OLB (Walden/Mathews) in an impossible position with a team which has a running QB and who also is a good passer----more and more of these types lately.
e.g. at the start of play action the OLB is either going to freeze at rushing the passer thinking it might be a run or he's going to gamble and guess pass. If he thinks pass and it is a pass he got a late start on rushing the passer----if he guesses pass and it's a run he rushes the passer and isn't in position to contain Kapernick.
another situation not off play action-----the QB drops back to pass and our OLBs rush the passer-----meanwhile a RB goes out into the area, which the OLB released from/vacated and no one there in time to prevent the pass and a run up the sideline----this led to two(tds) in the first half. Now Carl tells us Jones is suppose to comeover and cover the RB, but where was he? no where to be found. Later on yes, but then he was so conscious of the RB near the sideline that he cheated toward that area and wasn't in position to take on Kapernick's runs inside.
The worst case of poor coaching I think I've ever seen in the NFL since Scooter McClean. I say fire Capers, as the players will have little or no confidence in him in the future----even if in the unlikely event he is able to right the ship! Murf, you forgot to mention that the 3-4 defense that San Francisco runs is virtually the same as what Green Bay runs, and Vic Fangio learned this defense from Dom Capers. But, San Francisco has a much more talented front 7 (as in 4 Pro Bowlers to Green Bay's 1). San Francisco does have salary cap and age issues creeping up on them, however. Of course, SF got all that talent by selecting in the top half of each round, because they were pretty bad for a long time. It sure is hard to win the Kentucky Derby riding a mule. Must get a big, physical DT early in this draft and -possibly- another 5-technique guy later in the draft (e.g., 6'6" 290 lb. Baker Steinkuhler, Nebraska), as insurance. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 3:26 PM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
I'm with Murf. He has to go. Even when he was blitzing, it was a delayed blitz at times from DB's that did nothing.
And the Packers better figure it out. 3 teams in the NFC made the playoffs with similar QB's and are all young. RGIII, Wilson and Kapernick. Heck, even Joe Webb. That's 4 teams with a style like that. Packers need to adjust their Defense if they want to even get out of the NFC. The window is closing and already they wasted 2 years of elite WR's with nothing to show. A fart in the wind indeed.
If these QB's were in the AFC, you could maybe get away another year screwing around with Capers Dinosaur Defense, but the world has changed and it's right in their backyard. |
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Posted: 1/14/2013 3:34 PM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
other than matthews...who can blitz? Perry had the possibility with a bull rush...which surprised me...he is bigger than I thought...
Walden, Hawk and Jones could not blitz...
Bishop was the best blitzer...
the DBs were ok at blitzing...
this is a talent thing...and after Capers gets fired...that realization will become clear...
SF gets guys who are big and tough..on OL, DB, LB and DBs...time for GB to load up...
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Posted: 1/14/2013 3:37 PM
Re: 3-4 or 4-3 best to defend the read option?
I agree JD it's talent also. But Capers has to go. 3 times bounced with awful defensive performances. Will send a message to the team. This isn't that extreme of a move to send him packing. Happens often after a crappy 2 year run.
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