This isn't even close.  I think Buycks is the superior player, but as a devil's advocate, say Acker can provide 1-2 wins over Buycks. Is that really worth taking time away from a guy that will be here when we aren't in a rebuild year?  And when I say a YEAR, I mean it.  Buzz has done an unimaginable job on the recruiting front.  We are good next year.  "Rebuilding" only takes a year when you stack talent like Buzz has.  So should we give MO extra minutes in his relatively meaningless year or give those minutes to guys who NEED the experience and will be high impact players in the future???

I want 30+ to Buycks and DJO.  2010 would benefit.  And I'm putting this out there right now........Buycks is the favorite to start at PG next year,  so get him as much experience NOW.

Cadougan is my favorite to start at point guard next year.  Buycks will play point if he has to, but it does not seem to be his first position.  I do not think it matters if Buycks starts at the 1 this year in terms of playing time, since he, DJO, and Acker are all going to get significant minutes this year.  Moreover, Buycks already has two years of experience and DJO one.  Even though it was on the juco level, these guys were on highly competitive teams and were among the best in the country.  An extra ten minutes a game this year will not make much of a difference next year.

If, ITOH Acker can get the team another win or two, this could be enough to get us into postseason play.  Talk about valuable experience for newcomers!

I am going with Acker, and further betting that he is going to surprise some people.

I've already made my feelings known on this.  And I agree, it's not so much about who is announced as being in the starting lineup; it's about mpg.

I don't think it's about building experience for 2010-2011; it's about winning this year.  And from what I saw the other night, we need to have DB and DJ-O on the floor as much as possible.

I doubt we will see three guards on the floor togtether more than in a few isolated situations.  None of the guards is taller than 6'3", and I doubt DB is that tall.  For four years we had WM, who was 6'5" to match up with opponents' small forwards.  More importantly, we just do not have enough depth in the backcourt to run three guards for any length of time.

It also doesn't matter much when the two juco transfers are in the game together which one is the nominal 1 and which the nominal 2.  If we run the offense the way we did Friday night, the two positions are basically the same after the initial pass to the wing.

As far as bringing the ball up court, either one can do that, even against pressure.  Besides, if we need to, and it's man-to-man pressure, Hayward, Butler, and Maymon all can bring the ball up against his man.  And if it's a zone press, you don't break it with the dribble anyway, but with passes.  I'm guessing Maymon will be a key to breaking any zone press we see, just as Lazar was the past two years.

Remember, both DB and DJ-O have played the point.  Kidder at Indian Hills said Buycks did an excellent job running the point when his regular starting point guard was out with an injury.  And DJ-O ran the point most of the time last year at Hutchinson as well as at Patterson the year before.  It's not like either guy hasn't had experience at the 1.

Buzz wants his guards to get into the lane and creatge - either for themselves or for teammates.  Both DB and DJ-O can do that.  MA can not; that's simply not his game.  Both DB and DJ-O can also shoot from outside, so opponents have to play them honestly.  They can't play off either one.

But the most important reason both need to be on the court as much as possible relates to defense, not offense.  Both have the physical attributes to match up with Big East level guards.  MA will struggle against many/most of the conference's point guards.  Even worse, he will be exposed any time the opponent forces him to switch.  That happened a couple of times Friday night and led directly to opponent baskets.

I would love to see DB and DJ-O get 30 mpg each with MA getting the majority of the remaining 20 mpg, say 14-16 mpg.  But I truly hope neither averages fewer than say, 28 mpg.  That leaves 24 mpg for MA and DC to divide up.

I knew DB was a good player, but I didn't know he would be as good as he is.  And I think DJ-O is even better, or at least he will be once he's at 100%.

Ideally, MA would play the same role he did two years ago and get 11-12 mpg.  But I'm resigned to the fact he's going to get a few more than that whether he starts or not.

The fact that this thread even exists is probably why we are ranked 12th in the conference.  Going into the season, even the fans have no idea who the starting PG will be. And if outsiders want to figure it out, they will have to find some JUCO tape.

If our players end up being really good, then we are flying waaaay under the radar now.

Is it really that big of a deal Charlie? When did starting PG's become relevant?

There are so many unknowns.......I think that's what going to make this season so fun.  I am loving this season as much as last!  I love watching guys develop and Buzz has something VERY special here.

DomJamesToTheBasket wrote:

This isn't even close.  I think Buycks is the superior player, but as a devil's advocate, say Acker can provide 1-2 wins over Buycks. Is that really worth taking time away from a guy that will be here when we aren't in a rebuild year?  And when I say a YEAR, I mean it.  Buzz has done an unimaginable job on the recruiting front.  We are good next year.  "Rebuilding" only takes a year when you stack talent like Buzz has.  So should we give MO extra minutes in his relatively meaningless year or give those minutes to guys who NEED the experience and will be high impact players in the future???

 

I want 30+ to Buycks and DJO.  2010 would benefit.  And I'm putting this out there right now........Buycks is the favorite to start at PG next year,  so get him as much experience NOW.

The question here is not who is the better player, but rather who is the better PG. The function of a PG is to make others better------I have seen nothing in Buycks play thus far to indicate he is a setup others type guy----he is a shoot first guy. Nothing wrong with that at the #2 position, but not the best mechanics/instincts at PG.

At this point Buycks isn't even on the drawing board for PG as in the 2 scrimmages the only two PGs have been Acker & Cooby-----I think Buzz has made the right decision here-----we're very fortunate to have Acker back with all his successful BE & NCAA experience from last year. If Buycks was  being thought of as PG-----he would be getting minutes there right now. Buzz knows what Acker can do-----anyone who can break the Syracuse zone down for 7 assists as MA did----is at the very least an adequate BE PG.

BTW----Cadougan is odds on favorite to be the PG in the 2010-11 season----not Buycks.

I like JC and I hope he is the starting PG next year.  The fact remains that the more minutes Acker and Cubillan play, the more experience they take from younger players.....if they had an impact in the win column it would one thing.........but, they really don't.  Regardless,  this is pretty much a throwaway season. Zero expectations.  I would like to be as good as possible for 2010 and that means playing Buycks and DJO extensively THIS year.

Buycks is going to play a TON of minutes at PG in his 2 years. He has to.  He will also be good. Really good.  This is Guard U.  The next legit starting PG is automatic (unless your name is Bell or Berkowitz).......Miller, Hutchins, Henry, Diener, James.....WOW....that is one helluva span.........the elite PG tradition will undoubtedly continue.  Or maybe it won't.  Aside from the Aaron Hutchins and Marcus West year,  MU hasn't has more than one really talented guy that can play the point.  Buzz's recruiting ability brings MU to another level.  Think about the 2010 PG options...........Buycks as an experienced senior,..........Junior coming off an injury, but regarded as a top 50 recruit with true PG skills........DJO is going to want to play there as well...........then there is .Vander (Fricken') Blue - PURE LUXURY........Marquette has never had that kind of depth at point guard, while only having one true PG.  Buzz is going to become the Buzzsaw next year.  The talent is special.  Big props to Buzz.

Dom, being a backup PG in the JUCO league doesn't qualify him to be a PG in the BE as postion skills are very important------but you do have a point in that we need a backup to Cadougan next year-----but that could be Vander Blue-----I know that if I were him I wouldn't be going anywhere where i wasn't going to get some PG experience to help my NBA draft prospects.

I  disagee this is a "throw away season"-----this is a season where we find out what kind of coach Buzz is. If he can overachieve your expectations and come in at 9-9 in the BE (especially with a strong finish)----we have something-----if not, he has some things to sort out going forward.

gr8one1 wrote:

 

 

I  disagee this is a "throw away season"

That was poor wording.  Every season has been good in my 30 years.

Not to nitpick, but when Henry was a senior and starting at point guard, Diener was a freshman.  CH started at point, but when he was out TD played point, and quite often the two played side by side, not only the few minutes Wade took a breather, but also when we ran three guards.

SilverWarrior wrote:

Not to nitpick, but when Henry was a senior and starting at point guard, Diener was a freshman.  CH started at point, but when he was out TD played point, and quite often the two played side by side, not only the few minutes Wade took a breather, but also when we ran three guards.

Difference being that Diener was a true PG and Buycks isn't.

Position skills are very important.

I think  "true PG" is a little too loosely labeled.  Most of our star point guards were big time scorers.  Tony Miller was definitely a "true", but after that I think it's a reach......Hutchins, Henry, and Diener all lit it up....they were the leading scorers.

What I mean by "true" PG is a guy who can set others up and make them more productive----this is a special skill and a prerequisite for the PG position in most offenses----anything he can do beyond that is a plus.

What I feel is open for debate is can you play with two combo guards together instead of going with a true point guard? 

There's no question for me that Dwight Buycks and Darius Johnson-Odom will be the two most productive players at the guard position for MU this year and although neither are considered pure point guards, both spent some time at the position at the JUCO level and there's a good chance that Buzz will play them together for minutes at a time. 

Buycks was used this way at Indian Hills and when he was moved to the point guard, he really penetrated and was a big reason why St. John's recruit Dwight Hardy got open looks for three pointers.  I could see the same thing happening with Dwight and Darius and I'll even go so far to say that when Acker and Johnson-Odom are out of the lineup, Dwight may be the better option at point and David would be more productive receiving passes off of Dwight's penetration than the other way around.  I think next Saturday's exhibition against MSOE will have Buzz using Buycks and Johnson-Odom in tandem at times.

DomJamesToTheBasket wrote:

I like JC and I hope he is the starting PG next year.  The fact remains that the more minutes Acker and Cubillan play, the more experience they take from younger players.....if they had an impact in the win column it would one thing.........but, they really don't.  Regardless,  this is pretty much a throwaway season. Zero expectations.  I would like to be as good as possible for 2010 and that means playing Buycks and DJO extensively THIS year.

 

Buycks is going to play a TON of minutes at PG in his 2 years. He has to.  He will also be good. Really good.  This is Guard U.  The next legit starting PG is automatic (unless your name is Bell or Berkowitz).......Miller, Hutchins, Henry, Diener, James.....WOW....that is one helluva span.........the elite PG tradition will undoubtedly continue.  Or maybe it won't.  Aside from the Aaron Hutchins and Marcus West year,  MU hasn't has more than one really talented guy that can play the point.  Buzz's recruiting ability brings MU to another level.  Think about the 2010 PG options...........Buycks as an experienced senior,..........Junior coming off an injury, but regarded as a top 50 recruit with true PG skills........DJO is going to want to play there as well...........then there is .Vander (Fricken') Blue - PURE LUXURY........Marquette has never had that kind of depth at point guard, while only having one true PG.  Buzz is going to become the Buzzsaw next year.  The talent is special.  Big props to Buzz.

And I am sorry, but that is nonsense.  You talk like Acker and Cubi are some sort of team cancer, that every minute they play costs us points next year in a big game.  Merde!  Buycks and DJO will get plenty of minutes this year.  DJO's might be limited by injury a bit.  Whether they play 20 or 31 minutes a game this year will make little difference next year.  They will both get plenty of experience, and they are not entirely raw rookies to begin with.

Meanwhile, if this team can win some games this year, that is good for everyone.  If the younger players sit on the bench and watch as the older players carrry the team (and that is not going to happen) it still helps, as the team gets a feel for winning games, and important ones.

The coaches will decide who plays, and I am fine with that.  But sacrificing success today for the sake of experience for the guys who will play next year is a stupid idea.

Puju1 wrote:

What I feel is open for debate is can you play with two combo guards together instead of going with a true point guard? 

 

There's no question for me that Dwight Buycks and Darius Johnson-Odom will be the two most productive players at the guard position for MU this year and although neither are considered pure point guards, both spent some time at the position at the JUCO level and there's a good chance that Buzz will play them together for minutes at a time. 

 

Buycks was used this way at Indian Hills and when he was moved to the point guard, he really penetrated and was a big reason why St. John's recruit Dwight Hardy got open looks for three pointers.  I could see the same thing happening with Dwight and Darius and I'll even go so far to say that when Acker and Johnson-Odom are out of the lineup, Dwight may be the better option at point and David would be more productive receiving passes off of Dwight's penetration than the other way around.  I think next Saturday's exhibition against MSOE will have Buzz using Buycks and Johnson-Odom in tandem at times.

Puju------penetrating isn't unique to the PG position----that is a nice quality to have at any perimeter position. A modern day PG has a responsibilty to run the offense which means that he must have ballhandling skills, passing skills, and be able to see the floor------a court sense that includes all 3.

DJO gave up 4 TOs/game in JUCO ball----from that stat I have to wonder about his present ballhandling and passing skills ----- and i agree that both DJO and Buycks have penetrating ability but both impress me as shoot/drive first guys, which is a completely different  MO than required as a PG.

Now I supose in a pinch either could play PG------but it comes down to an effectiveness issue----probably effective against MSOE though.

Why don't you wait until you see both Johnson-Odom and Buycks playing together to make a judgement?  That's what I'm going to do and if they play well together and the team plays well with them in tandem, then Buzz has a decision to make.

Without question Johnny Flynn was an outstanding PG in the BEast, what did he do first, I would say score, penetrate, pass in that order. His passing was effective due to his other skills.  I think DJO and DB compare more closely with Flynn then MO. MO will be valuable and get his minutes. 

Well Flynn averaged 7 assists per game----that's a lot of assists-----let's just say that Flynn was an outstanding all around PG----we don't have anyone near to his skill level-----so a comparison to Flynn as an example of what our PGs should be doing is pie in the sky.