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Florida Officiating.
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Posted: 2/7/2013 10:32 AM
Florida Officiating.
This same topic comes up on this site every year. I might as well bring it up this year! I don't care who you are, we all seen refs make terrible calls or terrible no calls. Bad calls that decide close matches with only seconds on the clock. Refs who are out of position because they are not in good physical shape or not quick enough. Yes, it happens and even the best refs miss calls, but it seems like the same refs do it over and over again. Its frustrating to say the least! We have some great refs here in Florida but as we all know florida has some refs that have no business officiating in the state series let alone at tournaments or duals. There I said it ! Here's another problem. Florida has way to many Refs with egocentric personalities out there. They need to be the center of attention on every match or at every event. Coaches can't even coach there kids in the corner with out hearing from the Ref who thinks every comment is directed at him, when the coach is only trying to tell his wrestler something or coaching his wrestler. Heard this comment (I'm in control out here) or (you're trying to influence my call ). Daaa. If a coach is in the corner and says stalling its for sure some refs won't call it just because the coach or assitant coach said it. doesn't matter if the kid was stalling his butt off. he won't call it now (he's in control). Stalling is stalling. doesn't matter if everyone in the stands see it or doesn't see it. its still stalling . Make the call! These Refs will be upset when anyone questions them or even writes on a wrestling site about them.  Its not about the ref its about the kids! they deserve better! Here's the problem in my opinion, Most of the coaches know more about wrestling and the rules than some refs. again I'm not talking about every ref. so don't get your panties in a wad. most of floridas refs are great but even those refs know there are bad refs out there..... Another thing is some refs carry grudges, yep, I've seen it happen! they won't forget that a coach called them to the table on terrible call at a past event or questioned them. everyone knew the ref blew it! but the ref won't admit it. now at the next tournament they are out to get the coach and prove that they are in control. MHO is Good coaches will fight for every point for there wrestlers. thats the way it should be. the ref don't have to agree with the coach but at least be understanding, listen and give respect to the coaches. they work there butts off with these kids and deserve respect!
Last edited 2/7/2013 8:29 PM by CAPTGLM
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Posted: 2/7/2013 11:21 AM
RE: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
Most coaches know more about the rules, because the requirements for coaching are more extensive than the requirements to be a ref. We all know its a tough job, but years reffing and aptitude are too often confused. We all know places where the same old refs are making the same old bad calls. On top of that too many refs are just ego-driven jerks.
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Posted: 2/7/2013 11:34 AM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
The large majority of the Refs are good at what they do. I think the issue with them is more an issue with the rules of wrestling. There needs to be more clarity in certain situations that occur during a match and more consistancy. Last year there was this big push with the "Fleeing the mat call". Everywhere you went it was being called on a regular basis. I cant count how many times I saw it called last year. This year I have seen it called twice.
I agree that many of the officals good or bad are often out of position. If a near fall is occurring during the match the official should be on the mat period. Things happen fast in this sport and it only takes a split second to miss something. This is not the WWE and there is not a 3 count for a pin. This one drives me crazy.
The bad Refs are way they are. The problem is that they often get assigned to big tournaments and the Post season. There needs to be a better evaluating system if there is one at all. Perhaps allowing coaches to fill out score cards. It seems to me that coaches, who are in the corners for every match sometimes for 15 or 16 hours in a weekend coaching would be the obvious choice as opposed to the good ole boy system.
I watched one match this year where wrestler "A" dominated wrestler "B" for the entire match. During the match wrestler "A" hit wrester "B" 5 times with a slide bye had his left arm over the left shoulder, right arm under the right arm pit, hands locked, leg laced in and took the kid to the mat each time and each time the ref did not give takedown points and when the coach(who was a 4 year wrestler on a top 5 D1 college team and member of the National Team)went to the scorer's table to speak with the ref, the ref was combative, ignorant and didnt want to hear anything. Wrestler "A" still won the match 4-3, but it was with an escape with less than 10 seconds left as opposed to what should have been a Major.
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Posted: 2/7/2013 11:45 AM
RE: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
does anyone know one can become a ref ?
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Posted: 2/7/2013 11:47 AM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
MerkleMan
Combative is a good word to discribe the way some refs react. I think they believe its a personal attack against them. I hate it when they won't even listen to the coaches opinion. thats when you know, its obvious the ref has a ego problem. Its very frustrating when everyone knows the ref is wrong and there is NOTHING the coach can do about it. (Thats your warning coach) another and you out of here!!!!!!!!!!!! Yikes!
Last edited 2/7/2013 11:49 AM by CAPTGLM
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Posted: 2/7/2013 11:58 AM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
I agree with much that has been stated in this thread, but have some differing thoughts:
1. We cannot keep young men in the sport as referees long enough for them to get good. The money is certainly not worth it and when they are abused at the table, on the sidelines, and even in the hospitality room they loose their enthusiasm for doing it.
2. Not every association performs the same amount of training prior to and during the season. I belong to two different associations (FL and GA) and in both we spend a couple of months with weekly meetings and then weekly throughout the season going over situations, scenarios, what to do if...
3. I have been officiating wreslting for 12 years now and have had the good fortune to be able to do the NHSCA Jr/Sr Nationals 5 times, the NHSCA Duals 5 times, the Super 32 3 times, and many other high level tournaments. I can count on one hand the number of times that I have been complemented on the job that I did. I am not saying that the coachs should stroke the referees, but if you would not hesistate to tell one that they did a crap job, tell them with they did a good job as well.
4. Point of View. I realize that the coach of team A has his wrestlers' best interest in his mind and that the coach of team B has his wrestlers' best interest in his mind, I just ask that the coaches remember that we are First trying to keep everyone safe and secondly trying to ensure that the match is called fairly. I try to listen to what is being said by the coaches and evaluate the meaning of it. If it is safety related I will react, if it is match related I will file it away.
5. Believe it or not, referees are human. We have feelings, we have off days, and we certainly do things that we are not proud of. If you are verbally attacking the referee then you can expect the same back, but if you try talking with the same respect that you expect from him then you may be pleased with the result. Several years ago I was taken to the table by a fairly well known head coach from Brandon. He just asked me what I had and what I had seen. Through the discussion I realized that I had not given a takedown when it was desirved. I changed the call and we went on.
6. Most of the referees do this because of the love that we have for the sport. Every year I do numerous events for nothing more that a Hot Dog and Drink or two. I study the sport and try to get better every year. Don't give up on us, we are trying to get it right.
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Posted: 2/7/2013 12:03 PM
RE: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
contact (soa) sunshine officials assoc or (swoa) southwest officials assoc- and you go to the meetings, take the test and pay your dues ( $$$ ) and then you get assigned to do matches.
2013 was the first year in 25 years that I did not register and ref matches or duals... i wish i had more time...
one opinion I have is this-- there are SOOO many more tournaments these days... so we need more refs. There just are not ENOUGH qualified refs to cover all the matches.
most do the best they can... but their best just insnt good enough to work top level matches.... so they mess up and they look bad.
i really dont think too many of them mess up on purpose or take it out on a kid / team .... it just happens.
Because of this... i have gone with the attitude that If he makes a mistake I hope it is in my favor....
Best of luck to everyone in the next 2 weeks. i expect these crews to be top notch... Coach GUG
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Posted: 2/7/2013 12:27 PM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
SEGAHSREF wrote: I agree with much that has been stated in this thread, but have some differing thoughts:
1. We cannot keep young men in the sport as referees long enough for them to get good. The money is certainly not worth it and when they are abused at the table, on the sidelines, and even in the hospitality room they loose their enthusiasm for doing it.
2. Not every association performs the same amount of training prior to and during the season. I belong to two different associations (FL and GA) and in both we spend a couple of months with weekly meetings and then weekly throughout the season going over situations, scenarios, what to do if...
3. I have been officiating wreslting for 12 years now and have had the good fortune to be able to do the NHSCA Jr/Sr Nationals 5 times, the NHSCA Duals 5 times, the Super 32 3 times, and many other high level tournaments. I can count on one hand the number of times that I have been complemented on the job that I did. I am not saying that the coachs should stroke the referees, but if you would not hesistate to tell one that they did a crap job, tell them with they did a good job as well.
4. Point of View. I realize that the coach of team A has his wrestlers' best interest in his mind and that the coach of team B has his wrestlers' best interest in his mind, I just ask that the coaches remember that we are First trying to keep everyone safe and secondly trying to ensure that the match is called fairly. I try to listen to what is being said by the coaches and evaluate the meaning of it. If it is safety related I will react, if it is match related I will file it away.
5. Believe it or not, referees are human. We have feelings, we have off days, and we certainly do things that we are not proud of. If you are verbally attacking the referee then you can expect the same back, but if you try talking with the same respect that you expect from him then you may be pleased with the result. Several years ago I was taken to the table by a fairly well known head coach from Brandon. He just asked me what I had and what I had seen. Through the discussion I realized that I had not given a takedown when it was desirved. I changed the call and we went on.
6. Most of the referees do this because of the love that we have for the sport. Every year I do numerous events for nothing more that a Hot Dog and Drink or two. I study the sport and try to get better every year. Don't give up on us, we are trying to get it right. Great points...and I try to compliment every ref that does a good job. I know there will be questionable calls either way, but the guys that are consistent and that are in the right spots are the ones I appreciate the most. I disagree about the money....with the large amounts of tournaments, the refs can make a good chunk of change for a day's work, more than a lot of people make for harder jobs. |
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Posted: 2/7/2013 12:41 PM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
SEGAHREF Your dedication and hard work is appreciated! Glad we have understanding refs like you who study the sport and try to get better. The point is not all refs are like you! Thanks for your service. I don't ever recall a ref being abused at our hospitality room. lol. (Keep your hands off that fried chicken its for the coaches)  As for coaches as verbally attacking refs. I think most of the time the coaches are not verbally attacking refs they are just trying to make a point or trying to show the ref they made a mistake or misapplied a rule. thats not personal, its about wrestling. |
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Posted: 2/7/2013 1:12 PM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
I am glad someone started this thread, was debating on starting it but did not want to sound like I was bashing any certain refs. First off there are great refs out there, and I would like to say thank you for your hard work and time you take out of your lives for the work you do for the kids. And as far as pay goes, the coaches do not receive that much money either, for the time they put in year round its almost nothing, sometimes it seems I pay to coach, but I love doing it. You stated that if you questioned a ref in one tournament and made him mad, that he remembers that and holds a grudge. That seems to be a very true statement. Just because you have a problem with a coach, there should be no reason in the world to take it out on the wrestler. And just because the coach has a question and goes to the head table to talk to the ref, does not mean he is attacking the ref. Unless I am mistaken, that is the proper procedure to question a call. The ref should not take offense to this and attack the coach, or on some power trip. We all understand that most calls are judgement calls but some are just common sense. Hopefully the officiating will be good at regions and state.
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Posted: 2/7/2013 1:20 PM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
I agree that most of the time the Coach is just asking for a explanation of what was called or what the referee observed. Unfortunatly, when the Coach is excited they can come off as aggressive and when it is a young Official, who may not have the experience of several decades of dealing with people, they get excited. The situation can become about these two individuals and not about getting it right on the mat and the wrestlers are the ones that loose.
I also agree that we have more tournaments and what seems like less quality officials. In the area where I officiate we always have a veteran official as the head official and this person is very willing to listen to your frustration and make mid-course adjustments in the other officials if needed. If we can all realize that it takes all of us doing our best for this sport that we all love, we will all improve. We need to help each other, explaining what,why, etc... and leaving the chip on our shoulders at home.
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Posted: 2/7/2013 1:40 PM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
I think that some coaches ridiculously argue everything which is when the referees tend to give them the cold shoulder. I think as a coach you need to pick and choose your battles.
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Posted: 2/7/2013 2:06 PM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
Officiating is tough and as is with ANY profession (teachers, law enforcement, gardener, etc.) there are great ones and there are not so great ones. Personally I feel that we have excellent officials in Dade. Anyone interested in officiating in Dade, here's the link: http://gmac.dadeschools.net/pd...w_officials.pdf
______________________________________________
It's not where you start that matters, it's where you finish!
Coach Morejon
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Posted: 2/7/2013 6:00 PM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
Our association started a policy this year that gave all coaches ballots to rank and comment on the officiating crew at three of our tournaments in December. These evaluations were given to our association president and he then passed them along to our recommendations committee that makes the state series recommendations to the FHSAA. Unfortunately, we did not receive many of these evaluation forms back from the coaches at the end of the tournaments. I like the idea though and I am sure we will continue to give coaches a voice into our selection process and the response numbers will be better.
Also, as a coodinating official for several tournaments a year, I always tell the coaches to feel free to come to the table at any time and we will meet them at the next break in action. I assure them that they will be heard and their questions adaquately answered as long as they don't abuse the trips to the table with over-frequency and that they approach the official with courtesy and in a sportsmanlike manner. I then instruct the officials to always listen to everything the coach is asking, respond with criteria from the Rule Book to justify the call, change the call if necessary, and then get back on the whistle! I always tell our officials that you can tell an official who doesn't know the rules if he doesn't respond in coaches conferences with rule book criteria and just tells a coach that he is questioning his judgement and to sit down. Coaches work way too hard and invest immense amounts of time with their student athletes to be brushed aside without consideration or merit when they calmly and respectfully want to address an official.
I can't wait to be on the whistle tomorrow!!! Good luck to all!
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Posted: 2/7/2013 10:18 PM
RE: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
Well said Gug.
When I coached, all I asked for was for a referee to be consistent. If you don't call stalling, then be consistent about it. If you call quick pins, call them all the time.
One thing I think coaches forget, and referees don't enforce according to the rule book is that when you come to the table to question a call one of two things should happen 1. There is a misapplication of the rule and the call gets changed or 2. There isn't a misapplication and the coach is called for a misconduct.
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Posted: 2/7/2013 10:23 PM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
Spudlymandingo good advice but you forgot to tell the officials if they don't change the call because there is no misapplication of the rule the book says it is a coach misconduct.
Last edited 2/8/2013 6:56 AM by tommytakedown
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- A1Ref
- Member
- 78 posts this site
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Posted: 2/8/2013 8:08 AM
Re: Florida Officiating needs improvement!
It's worth noting that this year's fifty question NFHS/FHSAA Wrestling Official's Exam had four questions concerning correct enforcement of Coach Misconduct.
As a late season
coaching reminder...
7-5 ART. 2 . . . "Coaches and other team personnel are restricted to the bench/chairs while the clock is running and during normal out of bounds and resumption of wrestling... The coach may approach the scorer's table to request the match be stopped to discuss the misapplication of a rule. The coach may move towards the mat only during a charged time-out or at the end of the match. (See Rule 2-2)"
7-5 ART. 4 . . . "Coach Misconduct is called when a conference is requested with the referee regarding a misapplication of a rule, and the referee determines there is no misapplication involved, or when, during a conference, a coach questions the judgment of the referee."
The reality, by rule, is if you go to the table during a match in progress, you need to be right,
meaning there
needs to be a change of some sort. A change to the call, the score, position choice, the time, et al, etc.
Unfortunately from a coaching/officiating standpoint, many conferences do
not end up involving
an actual rule
misapplication. After all, it’s rare in folk style that a ref awards a 1 point takedown or gives a 5 point throw.
Be sure to point that out to them if they do. ;~)
More often than not, in the best cases they involve something the coach
saw that the ref didn’t. Remember actions are often witnessed 180
degrees out from each other. The ref can not, say, call locked hands if only the coach sees it. The official must see the action to make the call. Conferences may simply
concern a difference of opinion or they can
devolve into a question of judgment. By rule, the coach loses out in all those instances. If you go to the table for your first conference, Nothing
Changes and You Don’t Get a Coach Misconduct Warning, you made out. It’s like having a foul left to give in basketball. You get to stop a match
Again without costing
your team a point.
Folk-style wrestling is of course, an endurance sport with an advantage tending to favor the better conditioned athlete. Disrupting a
match for an unnecessary conference allows rest which may negate that "better conditioned" athlete's advantage.
A coach can still do it, but only Once without penalty.
And that's Not once per bout. It's once per dual or IBT/Dual Tournament Day.
Although calls are Not Subject to
a Vote, a coach can certainly request a match be stopped for a
conference. If he's Right, they'll be a correction and a restart. If he's Wrong, (meaning there was no change to the call, the score, position choice,
the time, etc) or he can't convince the official he's right, even if Polite, he can only do it Once without costing a team point. ‘Course if you’re nasty while
doing it you
may end up with a Misconduct Warning And an Unsportsmanlike Conduct Penalty.
The best time to non confrontationally ask for clarification, when no rule misapplication is involved is between bouts.
No Stoppage.
No Harm.
No Foul.
Misconduct Warnings & Penalties do not carry over to the second day of a tournament (unless of course you were ejected the first day). Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties do carry over.
Good Luck Guys!
Wrestle On!
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Posted: 2/8/2013 8:49 AM
Re: Florida Officiating.
Is there another part to the rule that allows the coach to approach the scorer's table when the score is incorrect? The person keeping score for the match may have missed a call or not have been paying attention. Should the coach be called for misconduct if the score was correct? There are very few scoring disputes where only one coach approaches the table. Should the misconduct rule only apply to the first coach to approach the table?
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Posted: 2/8/2013 9:34 AM
Re: Florida Officiating.
While related under overall umbrella of officiating, some of these are separate and distinct problems. - Knowing the rules. Does the ref have an understanding or lack of understanding of the rules of wrestling, and their application. To some degree, experience gained through officiating will help, but if the official doesn't eventually get it, they will always have problems. This is probably the biggest issue I observe coaches having with officiating. At districts this past week there were some obvious examples of lack of knowledge on rules...some pretty basic like having an arm when applying a headlock. Saw this happen and go on for a good 35-40 seconds til time ran out. Even opposing coach (his kid had illegal move) just shook his head. - Getting into correct position. Again, over time this will most likely improve unless the individual simply chooses not to work at it. It can often cost points and matches. For example, at districts this past week, I was sitting with a certified official (a good one), and we watched a TD where wrestler A took wrestler B to his back. Official was on wrong side of action, then tried to give two...got confused that he gave wrong wrestler points, and took eyes off action for 5-6 seconds while making eye contact with table workers. All the while, wrestler A was holding wrestler B FLAT on his back. Easily a pin, but as minimum 2 or 3 back points. By the time the ref gained composure, no back points were awarded. It cost wrestler A the match.
I applaud the association where they ask coaches for feedback. As minimum, it helps focus training efforts to improve performance as opposed to the status quo.
Last edited 2/8/2013 9:39 AM by RhinoWrestler
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Posted: 2/8/2013 9:52 AM
Re: Florida Officiating.
BrandonBob wrote: Is there another part to the rule that allows the coach to approach the scorer's table when the score is incorrect? The person keeping score for the match may have missed a call or not have been paying attention. Should the coach be called for misconduct if the score was correct? There are very few scoring disputes where only one coach approaches the table. Should the misconduct rule only apply to the first coach to approach the table? I was just thinking the same thing. I have witnessed many times where a ref will say 2 points red when it should be for green or vice versa. Most of the time no one approaches the scorers table they just yell it out and they change it. There has to be common sense here as the rules as written are too strict. I go back to my baseball days questioning an umpire which is similar. Balls and Strikes are like stalling calls, very subjective. And in the heat of the moment coaches will get loud. But a good ump will just let it slide understanding this unless it is way over the top. A lot of times it evened out. Was only a year ago when my son lost a match at AAU States for first when the ref gave his opponent 2 points that should have gone to my son. The Coach stopped the match and talked to the ref and the ref would not change the score. Later the ref saw the match on tape and he apologized but it was too late by then. I don't believe a coach should get a mis-conduct call for that just because he lost a very valid arguement. Can you even contest a match after it is over? Just curious on that one. |
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