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HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings

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Posted: 8/25/2011 9:49 AM

HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 


I'm not crazy, my reality is just different than yours.  ΦιΑ
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Posted: 8/25/2011 11:00 AM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 


Interesting......Stewart and Jefferson remained the same. However, Tuck falls to #15. Also, McDaniel stays the same at #24...........but Holmes continues to spiral down (27).
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Posted: 8/25/2011 11:08 AM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



usdtorero06 wrote: Interesting......Stewart and Jefferson remained the same. However, Tuck falls to #15. Also, McDaniel stays the same at #24...........but Holmes continues to spiral down (27).

I'm not getting Tuck falling to #15. But thankfully, it doesn't mean she's not the terific player she was before they downgraded her.
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Posted: 8/25/2011 11:17 AM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 


Yeah, I don't get it either. You upgrade players who didn't make it to U-19 Team (Graves and Stafford), and downgrade a player who did. Anyway, the rankings don't surprise me given their past history.

Last edited 8/25/2011 11:18 AM by usdtorero06

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Posted: 8/25/2011 11:40 AM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 


Stewart is a step above everyone not named Mosqueda-Lewis, Williams, DelleDonne, Ogwumike, or Moore.

Morgan was the NFOY. I still tend to believe that she is in the top handfull and better than. "just" 15th.
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Posted: 8/25/2011 11:58 AM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



MilfordHusky wrote: .

Morgan was the NFOY. I still tend to believe that she is in the top handfull and better than. "just" 15th.
Someone who has seen most of these kids play and whose opinion I value on such things has told me that Tuck is stronger and has a better all-around game than Beebe, for example.  None of this really matters, though.  It'll eventually be about what these kids do on the court and, as is true every year, HG's opinions will be validated for some and won't be for others.
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Posted: 8/25/2011 12:33 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



CatCamille wrote:
MilfordHusky wrote: .

Morgan was the NFOY. I still tend to believe that she is in the top handfull and better than. "just" 15th.
Someone who has seen most of these kids play and whose opinion I value on such things has told me that Tuck is stronger and has a better all-around game than Beebe, for example.  None of this really matters, though.  It'll eventually be about what these kids do on the court and, as is true every year, HG's opinions will be validated for some and won't be for others.
ok so here's the thing (and i echo USDTorrero's sentiments as well).  these people see these kids play all across the country but rarely do they get to see them play all together on the same team or against each other to actually evaluate who is "better".

there was a long thread on here a while ago where i pointed out that HG completely missed the boat (IMHO) on rankings of several UCONN (and non UCONN) recruits, specifically Faris, Dolson, Hartley, Banks and Stokes. 

but the bottom line is it's just one services opinion, even if it's not shared by PBR, ASGR or Blue Star.  Last i checked, Tuck was 9 per BS, 4 per ASGR, 4 per Peach State, and 8 per PBR.  however, more than that is her performances compared head to head with kids above her.

for example, last year she was on the same US team as Graves and Burdick.  Tuck's stats were identical to Burdick's and much better than Graves'.  and by the way Burdick is a  year older.  this year, on the U19 team, her stats were pretty close to Howard, much better than Adams or Jones, but 2.0 PPG behind Burdick's.  and btw, Jefferson didn't make the team - she was one of the 3 cut from the 15-12 reduction.  oh, and Graves didn't make it either.

i'm not saying necessarily that Tuck should be ahead of Adams, Jones, or Jefferson, but in my mind, when you have direct exact comparisons like that, it should be taken into account.

rankings are really about bragging rights.  there's no doubt in my mind that Tuck is better than Graves, and every service thinks so except HG.  but tennessee fans will disagree, and the people at HG would disagree too.  i don't envy their job. 

and by the way, Stewart, a year younger than KML or E.Williams, had MUCH better numbers on the u19 team - she's a #1 recruit like Moore, Parker, Griner and Taurarsi were - IMHO she's that good.  there are #1 recruits, and then there are #1 recruits...  and Stewart is only scratching the surface of her game.

bottom line is Geno may not get every #1 recruit (altho he seems to get MOST of them), but generally he gets the kids he wants, who really want UCONN, and who are great kids who fit in with the team and the team concept...

UCONN Huskies National Champions 1995, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004 (X2), 2009, 2010, 2011 and beyond... Women 7 NC's, Men 3 NC's - 10-0 collectively in NC games!

Last edited 8/25/2011 12:57 PM by ericsandiego

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Posted: 8/25/2011 12:50 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 


Ericsandiego:   +1 !
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Posted: 8/25/2011 12:57 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



ericsandiego wrote: there was a long thread on here a while ago where i pointed out that HG completely missed the boat (IMHO) on rankings of several UCONN (and non UCONN) recruits, specifically Faris, Dolson, Hartley, Banks and Stokes. 


One caveat...certain players perform better for certain coaches because coaches know how to utilize that player's skillset better than others.  Hartley was a perfect fit for Geno, especially after having coached Renee Montgomery.  I do not think Hartley (or Dolson) for that matter would have performed as well for some other coaches.  With certain players, Geno is just able to get things out of them that very few coaches can (even though the players may be supremely talented).

The rankings are about where the evaluators see the players now, with some allowance for potential.  The rankings cannot factor in how a coach will use a player in his or her system, nor can the rankings account for things like a player's work ethic in college and desire to improve.

Rather than disparaging Hoopgurlz (who go to more tournaments than the other rankings services), it could be that you should be praising Geno Auriemma for what he can do with the players he identifies, recruits, and signs.
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Posted: 8/25/2011 1:03 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ericsandiego wrote: there was a long thread on here a while ago where i pointed out that HG completely missed the boat (IMHO) on rankings of several UCONN (and non UCONN) recruits, specifically Faris, Dolson, Hartley, Banks and Stokes. 


One caveat...certain players perform better for certain coaches because coaches know how to utilize that player's skillset better than others.  Hartley was a perfect fit for Geno, especially after having coached Renee Montgomery.  I do not think Hartley (or Dolson) for that matter would have performed as well for some other coaches.  With certain players, Geno is just able to get things out of them that very few coaches can (even though the players may be supremely talented).

The rankings are about where the evaluators see the players now, with some allowance for potential.  The rankings cannot factor in how a coach will use a player in his or her system, nor can the rankings account for things like a player's work ethic in college and desire to improve.

Rather than disparaging Hoopgurlz (who go to more tournaments than the other rankings services), it could be that you should be praising Geno Auriemma for what he can do with the players he identifies, recruits, and signs.
excellent point Cam, but when you look at kids like Faris, Banks, KML and Tuck (i'm not sure if this is accurate for Hartley and Dolson), they ALL either made US national teams, one or both of the high school all star games, and or kids ranked above them either didn't make those teams, or did not perform nearly as well as the kids in question when comparing apples to apples.

i really don't want this to turn into another thread like the one a few months back, but those are all things that occurred in high school before a coach like Geno got a hold of them.  and bottom line, there are 4 recruiting services out there and each one has a different evaluation process and different criteria for evaluating the kids. 

the other bottom line is that it's really all about bragging rights.  is there that much difference between a kid rated 12 and a kid rated 6?  but as fans, and i'm guilty of this too, we want to say "our class is better than _____" or "our recruits are better than ____"...

UCONN Huskies National Champions 1995, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004 (X2), 2009, 2010, 2011 and beyond... Women 7 NC's, Men 3 NC's - 10-0 collectively in NC games!

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Posted: 8/25/2011 1:13 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



ericsandiego wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ericsandiego wrote: there was a long thread on here a while ago where i pointed out that HG completely missed the boat (IMHO) on rankings of several UCONN (and non UCONN) recruits, specifically Faris, Dolson, Hartley, Banks and Stokes. 


One caveat...certain players perform better for certain coaches because coaches know how to utilize that player's skillset better than others.  Hartley was a perfect fit for Geno, especially after having coached Renee Montgomery.  I do not think Hartley (or Dolson) for that matter would have performed as well for some other coaches.  With certain players, Geno is just able to get things out of them that very few coaches can (even though the players may be supremely talented).

The rankings are about where the evaluators see the players now, with some allowance for potential.  The rankings cannot factor in how a coach will use a player in his or her system, nor can the rankings account for things like a player's work ethic in college and desire to improve.

Rather than disparaging Hoopgurlz (who go to more tournaments than the other rankings services), it could be that you should be praising Geno Auriemma for what he can do with the players he identifies, recruits, and signs.
excellent point Cam, but when you look at kids like Faris, Banks, KML and Tuck (i'm not sure if this is accurate for Hartley and Dolson), they ALL either made US national teams, one or both of the high school all star games, and or kids ranked above them either didn't make those teams, or did not perform nearly as well as the kids in question when comparing apples to apples.

i really don't want this to turn into another thread like the one a few months back, but those are all things that occurred in high school before a coach like Geno got a hold of them.  and bottom line, there are 4 recruiting services out there and each one has a different evaluation process and different criteria for evaluating the kids. 

the other bottom line is that it's really all about bragging rights.  is there that much difference between a kid rated 12 and a kid rated 6?  but as fans, and i'm guilty of this too, we want to say "our class is better than _____" or "our recruits are better than ____"...
Yep! and even Geno doesn't manage his magic on every recruit, just most of them and more than most other coaches if not all other coaches.  

If people are sweating things out after seven NC's or need to make sure everything about UConn women's bb is recognized by everybody, I have to wonder what is preventing fans of less successful programs from jumping off bridges.

Last edited 8/25/2011 1:14 PM by Fleudslipcon

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Posted: 8/25/2011 1:21 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



ericsandiego wrote: excellent point Cam, but when you look at kids like Faris, Banks, KML and Tuck (i'm not sure if this is accurate for Hartley and Dolson), they ALL either made US national teams, one or both of the high school all star games, and or kids ranked above them either didn't make those teams, or did not perform nearly as well as the kids in question when comparing apples to apples.


USA Basketball and the All-American games are even more political than ranking services (remember, Deanna Nolan and Vickie Johnson never made a senior national team).  Also, selections for the All-American games occurs after the senior year, whereas final rankings are generally done before the senior season starts.
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Posted: 8/25/2011 1:24 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ericsandiego wrote: excellent point Cam, but when you look at kids like Faris, Banks, KML and Tuck (i'm not sure if this is accurate for Hartley and Dolson), they ALL either made US national teams, one or both of the high school all star games, and or kids ranked above them either didn't make those teams, or did not perform nearly as well as the kids in question when comparing apples to apples.


USA Basketball and the All-American games are even more political than ranking services (remember, Deanna Nolan and Vickie Johnson never made a senior national team).  Also, selections for the All-American games occurs after the senior year, whereas final rankings are generally done before the senior season starts.
How exactly is USA Basketball "political"?  Are you saying they systematically put teams together for some purpose other than winning gold medals?
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  • keeb927
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Posted: 8/25/2011 2:28 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



wbbfan7 wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ericsandiego wrote: excellent point Cam, but when you look at kids like Faris, Banks, KML and Tuck (i'm not sure if this is accurate for Hartley and Dolson), they ALL either made US national teams, one or both of the high school all star games, and or kids ranked above them either didn't make those teams, or did not perform nearly as well as the kids in question when comparing apples to apples.


USA Basketball and the All-American games are even more political than ranking services (remember, Deanna Nolan and Vickie Johnson never made a senior national team).  Also, selections for the All-American games occurs after the senior year, whereas final rankings are generally done before the senior season starts.
How exactly is USA Basketball "political"?  Are you saying they systematically put teams together for some purpose other than winning gold medals?
It has a very storied history of being "political"....whether it's conspiracy theories or not....I have no clue. 

Yes their goal is ALWAYS to win GOLD, but that doesn't stop them from hand selecting the players around the country from teams/coaches that they associate themselves with more.

See UConn, Tennessee, Stanford, Duke....flip that to Maryland, UNC, Big 12 schools (players/recruits rarely make teams)...now does that have more to do with the players personalities and ability to play within the "team concept"....probably, but it is still viewed as "politics" by outsiders.

Also, if you have turned them down once...or twice...you're likely NEVER to get another chance...see Holdsclaw, Nolan, Douglas....and we will see what happens with Cappie in the next year.

The issue last year of Crystal Langhorne not making the "camp" roster, but players like Appel, Vaughn, and Brunson making the cut caused a huge uproar....even Voepel chimmed in her 2 cents!!

Last edited 8/25/2011 2:29 PM by keeb927

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Posted: 8/25/2011 2:42 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



keeb927 wrote:


Also, if you have turned them down once...or twice...you're likely NEVER to get another chance...see Holdsclaw, Nolan, Douglas....and we will see what happens with Cappie in the next year.


Cappie was quietly added to the USA Nat'l Team roster that was released on August 1.  I wonder if this would've happened if Geno were not the coach.  I expect Cappie to be among the final 12 headed to London next year.
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Posted: 8/25/2011 2:59 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



CatCamille wrote:
keeb927 wrote:


Also, if you have turned them down once...or twice...you're likely NEVER to get another chance...see Holdsclaw, Nolan, Douglas....and we will see what happens with Cappie in the next year.


Cappie was quietly added to the USA Nat'l Team roster that was released on August 1.  I wonder if this would've happened if Geno were not the coach.  I expect Cappie to be among the final 12 headed to London next year.
couldn't agree more with you - and if Parker is healthy, someone very very good is going to be cut (Augustus, Cash, or Moore).  that's assuming you look Griner as a lock...

UCONN Huskies National Champions 1995, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004 (X2), 2009, 2010, 2011 and beyond... Women 7 NC's, Men 3 NC's - 10-0 collectively in NC games!

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Posted: 8/25/2011 5:43 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 



ericsandiego wrote:
there was a long thread on here a while ago where i pointed out that HG completely missed the boat (IMHO) on rankings of several UCONN (and non UCONN) recruits, specifically Faris, Dolson, Hartley, Banks and Stokes. 

but the bottom line is it's just one services opinion, even if it's not shared by PBR, ASGR or Blue Star.  Last i checked, Tuck was 9 per BS, 4 per ASGR, 4 per Peach State, and 8 per PBR.  however, more than that is her performances compared head to head with kids above her.

Eric,

You really hit the nail on the head on this one!!!  Hoopgurlz is the only service out of the 5 you listed to have her outside the top 10.  And you further proved that Hoopgurlz missed the boat on many other players (I know it is almost impossible to really predict how a player will play out).  IMO, Hoopgurlz's affiliation with ESPN has helped their popularity in comparison to the other services. However, I do appreciate Hoopgurlz and their continuous coverage of women's basketball.
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Posted: 8/25/2011 7:22 PM

Re: HoopGurlz Updated Class of 2012 rankings 


Eric hit the nail on the head on this too:

"and by the way, Stewart, a year younger than KML or E.Williams, had MUCH better numbers on the u19 team - she's a #1 recruit like Moore, Parker, Griner and Taurarsi were - IMHO she's that good.  there are #1 recruits, and then there are #1 recruits...  and Stewart is only scratching the surface of her game."

Breanna Stewart will be a 4x All-Big East performer.
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