Okay, purely hypothetical here. Had Butch stayed one more season how do people think we would have done post LeFevour? I'm just talking year 1. Obviously not 3-9 but how well would he have done with RR as a Sophomore? Two or 3 more wins?

I know, this is a digression and hypothetical. But so are the "fire Enos" and "who should our next coach be?'' threads. Barring an utter collapse at UMass Enos is back for 2013.

Okay, back to the Enos bashing.

I'm not sure what our final record would have been, but I'm pretty confident that he would have had that team in a bowl game. There was a lot of NFL talent on that roster, and there were a few games that immediately come to mind where a poor coaching decision may have cost us a game or two (Temple game, BGSU game). As I posted elsewhere, I think that team under Enos is better than this years team regardless of W-L.

WWRCD?

Not having to completely switch offensive or defensive schemes and having the same staff in place would probably have been good for at least 2-3 more wins on the schedule. Losing AB a year early to the NFL and Schroeder leaving the program really hurt the offense in terms of explosiveness, regardless of who would have been the head coach.

I would guess six wins. Home losses to BG and Miami that year were killers, and the early road loss to Temple set the tone for close losses that year.

I miss Brian Kelly.

Geez, prof you must really be missing our pot stirrer, Baller.

I asked Butch, before he left, what he was leaving...he felt that we had a 9 win team coming back.

It wasn't just the guys that graduated..we lost Schroder, wide receiver # 25 (name??), Bellore/Burning were switched positions after 3 years of playing together, Bolden was in the dog house....it's not only the guys we lost, but the dynamics of the entire team switched with enos...

Not flying BJ's flag..just trying to add a perspective to the question...Benny may be able to add further..

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that Radcliff would have been able to handle the offense and excel somewhat, but I would think around 7 wins. I think Butch was a better coach than Enos and was able to get the most from his team. I also wouldn't have been surprised if AB stuck around. Also, who's to say Butch wouldn't have started Kater? Lots of question marks we'll never know the answer to.

row40fan wrote: I asked Butch, before he left, what he was leaving...he felt that we had a 9 win team coming back.

It wasn't just the guys that graduated..we lost Schroder, wide receiver # 25 (name??), Bellore/Burning were switched positions after 3 years of playing together, Bolden was in the dog house....it's not only the guys we lost, but the dynamics of the entire team switched with enos...

Not flying BJ's flag..just trying to add a perspective to the question...Benny may be able to add further..

Lefevour went 8-6 & 8-5 his sophomore & junior seasons under BJ.  So with a qb (Radcliff) that he had to yank in a mop up roll against NIU for throwing a pick six he was going to win nine games the next year?  He knew what was coming down the road, that's why he would have been at Marshall if Cincinnati didn't step up.

Seeing that we lost Lefevour, Brown, Anderson, Schroeder, Zombo, Knight, Williams, Gordy, Ollenburger, Mama, Brazzel, Edwards, and Fraser, and Bellore was banged up for much of that year, I think Butch would have struggled to be at .500 in 2010-11. That's with all due respect to Butch who did a very good job when he was here, but when you don't have the horses, it gets a lot tougher. That said, what a great team in 2009-10. I miss seeing Lefevour and Brown work magic every week.

How much is continuity worth?

As you would expect Butch ran the team differently than Enos. In my opinion they were almost opposites. That is a big shift for a player. Butch had three years towards his degree in on the job training. The staff knew the players and what motivated them. RR played in a spread in HS. To be in the same O scheme with the same college coaches is huge. Reaction vs thinking about a play.

Would AB have stayed? I have no idea, but I would guess that he might have. It was easier to leave than learn everything new.

Would the defense have been better? The 2009 D was the best of Butch's three years. They really matured during the Arizona game. Again, continuity plays a big role here as well. The players knew their roles. Reaction vs thinking.

Butch's teams were close. They were like a family. They believed in each other because they had been through the wars together. Their mindset was that no one could beat them in the 4th quarter. In fairness to Enos or any first year coach, that is hard to duplicate by a new staff.

Add all of that up and is it worth 3,4 or 5 games? I think so. It's football so injuries and how the ball bounces plays into the final results. It's a game that is played by young men still maturing and learning the game. To me, that is what makes college  football more fun than Pro Football.

The final thing that I will say is that Butch really wanted to prove that CMU belonged in the Top 25 of college football. 2009 wasn't just a fluke. Yes, I know he left. But I also believe that if Cincy had not offered, he would have stayed at CMU.

I guess we will never know the answer to WWBJD?

Actually, I see NO reason why Butch would not have won , at least, 11 games had he stayed at CMU in 2010! Butch would not have missed any of the players who graduated!

I'd say that we would have finished with around 6 or 7 wins. Considerably better than Enos, sure, but we did lose a lot of talent either way. Having consistency is a big enough deal to balance that out, though. I imagine that the recruiting class would've been better too - and by 2011 or 2012 those guys would've been ready to step in and produce in Jones's system. Either way, I see us being at least a .500 team the past three years, and probably even better than that.

Perry, I have heard that from several different friends. I hope that it is true as it is a good sign.

I was not at the game because of a prior commitment. I am traveling east for the holiday and will get to see the seniors in their next to last game.

Going to try and answer everything at once:

Maybe two more wins, if Butch had stayed. No more than that. We lost too much talent on both sides of the ball and a damn fine kicker. Remember our kicking struggles in 2010? Pretty sure that wasn't anything Enos did or didn't do. And who knows what the future would have been like? Really, Butch didn't stay long enough to be sure what kind of HC he is, long-term. Not all at Cinci are convinced yet, I'm hearing.

What makes anyone here believe RR would have been any better in the old offense? Because I saw him in relief of LeFevour in 2009 at least twice. He threw two pick sixes! LeFevour left the game with a comfortable lead at home against NIU. Two disastrous series later, he returned to the game. That's right: BJ gave him the hook, after he did his best to steal a loss from the jaws of victory.   Didn't do well against BC either. If someone has a rational, realistic reason to explain why a guy who has demonstrated poor instincts in most of the games he's started would have magically flourished under a different coach, please state it. And keep in mind that Morris Watts has developed a lot of good QBs over the years. Zach Dysert in particular really blossomed while he was at Miami. I'm telling you now: if LeFevour had missed more than one half of the BC game, that magical 2009 season would have been a lot less special.

I don't know that Butch staying would have kept AB around. He had at least a couple good reasons to leave.

Defense: we had maybe one solid D under Butch. Remember Clemson? Georgia? Kentucky? Even EMU! I can recall a number of high-scoring losses under Butch. And no, I have and had nothing against Jones. He did well in his tenure at CMU. I'm just stating the facts. Realistically, what kind of defense would we have had in 2010 under Jones? I'm thinking little better. And yes, Bellore being banged-up was part of the issue. But only part.

Yeah, I think we all wish CMU could afford to pony up enough to keep a guy like Kelly around. But reality is what it is. Same as losing Butch.

chippucino wrote: Geez, prof you must really be missing our pot stirrer, Baller.

No, although I didn't mind him as much as some seem to. My point in all this is that even with Butch we would have fallen off and his continuity might have given us 2 or 3 more wins. RR as a 1st year starter was not as good as RR the 3rd year starter.

CMF, I agree with your points.  I don't think we can even begin to imagine what our record would have been, too many variables with who was leaving who would replace them, would they be better or worse.  The only thing I think that could be said is that BJ being at the helm for 4 yrs. would have helped with the continuity.  That said let's see what happens going into year four with Enos' team and their continuity and knowledge of the program.

How is Butch doing with a returning "loaded" Cinci team this season? He failed to even beat the 3rd or 4th best team in the MAC this season!