Or was it Luhnow or both?

The results are telling. The system has changed from one loaded with 6 year free agent cast offs to one of high potential. The performance of not only first rounder Miller but maybe of more importance the later picks such as Craig, Jay, Rosenthal, Adams, and Carpenter. And the promise of Wong, Jackson, Chambers, Freeman among others.

And on the International front the potential of high dollar and high profile Martinez but also lesser know at the time signees Taveras, Rodriguez, DeLeon and Valera. Also little known in St Louis the remarkable pitching of very young prospects in the DSL.

And then there was the little noticed trade of Freese for the aging Jim Edmonds.

If it was more Luhnow than Mo, can we continue to thrive? The results of the 2012 draft are encouraging. Wacha is clearly of great pick and Wisdom, Bean, Piscotty and Kelly have been ranked in their league's top 20 prospects. And solid performances by Schaffer, Caldwell, Llorens, Shaban at Johnson City and Mejia, Wilson, and Cooney at Batavia and Piscotty at Quad Cities. And Ramsey could just break into the top 20 in the Florida State League.

I think Luhnow was a big loss, not just because of what he brought to the table himself, but also because he took some good people with him.

The thing about baseball is that it is always changing, especially the economics.  The really good Jocketty years took advantage of big disparities in team cash flow where the Cards were able to trade for established players that were going to be too expensive for the old team to keep.  Then salaries started to take off and a new bottom up approach was needed that kind of ushered in the Luhnow era.  Then we had the recession and the Jocketty style kind of came back.  I think Mo's style is a blend of both and the continued success is evident.

Now we are moving into era of TV contracts providing a greater percentage of a teams revenues.  This isn't exactly great for the Cards since we have done well historically due to fantastic support from the fans, particularly at the gates.  Being in a small media market hurts us when negotiating with the big networks, but plays very well to the New Yorks and LAs of the world.

The one constant is that the Cards have been very successful over the last 10-12 years.  If I look at what has been the same through that period, it has been ownership.  As long as they are involved I trust they will continue to put the right people in charge in order to make sure the team is successful.

My impression is that Mo is good at finding the right people for the right jobs and then letting them do those jobs and listening to what they say. Also, I think he has shown the ability and the will to do what is necessary to get everybody on the same page. It also seems likely that he is a good enough executive level manager to not be in a position where the loss of one person would have a serious negative impact on the process going forward. I guess that would make him the driving force.

AA was stocked (packed),

AAA team was depleated, mostly because that they were recalled....

It will be interesting how they deal with OscarT in the spring 2013...

-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------
I guess a system is not bigger than one person or one player...the Cards have  system and they stick to it....

Interesting, how many 3rd baseman the Cards drafted
with David Freese on the major league roster....

hardheaded wrote: AA was stocked (packed),

AAA team was depleated, mostly because that they were recalled....

It will be interesting how they deal with OscarT in the spring 2013...

-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------
I guess a system is not bigger than one person or one player...the Cards have  system and they stick to it....

Interesting, how many 3rd baseman the Cards drafted
with David Freese on the major league roster....

One of the reasons for drafting 3rd basemen could be that Freese will be 30 yrs old at the start of next season

hardheaded wrote: AA was stocked (packed),

AAA team was depleated, mostly because that they were recalled....

It will be interesting how they deal with OscarT in the spring 2013...

-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------
I guess a system is not bigger than one person or one player...the Cards have  system and they stick to it....

Interesting, how many 3rd baseman the Cards drafted
with David Freese on the major league roster...

A) You don't draft for need in baseball. You draft best player available.

B) You're talking about a player that will be 30 next April in David Freese and draft picks that will probably be ready in 3-5 years and probably more like 4-5 than 3-5. Which is the reason that you don't draft for need. You're projecting into the future and the likelyhood is that David Freese will be more expensive and probably be close to the downside of his career if he hasn't already reached it by then.

Keep in mind that our farm was very productive through the Jocketty years, too.

MagnoliaCardFan wrote: Keep in mind that our farm was very productive through the Jocketty years, too.

True, I won't dispute that, but I wouldn't say it was his emphasis on building his teams.  I look at his masterpiece that was the 2004 Cardinals and it only had two major contributors from the minors, Pujols and Morris (and I'm not sure if Jocketty was there long enough to influence the Morris draft pick or not).  Renteria, Rolen, Edmonds, Walker, Marques, Williams, and Izzy all came via trade.  Womack, Matheny, Suppan, and Carp all via free agency on bargain deals.  Jocketty was at his best when exploiting inefficiencies in the disparity between team payrolls, usually by sending mediocre prospects to obtain impact players.

desmetlax12 wrote: I think Luhnow was a big loss, not just because of what he brought to the table himself, but also because he took some good people with him.

I'm glad you brought that up, des.

Is there a roster somewhere (besides Sig M.) of who Luhnow took with him to the Astros?

As much as I admire what happened under Jeff's watch, as long as the vast majority of worker bees remained -- and the pre-draft STOUT analysis system remains in place -- I don't see much cause for concern. In fact, if the first post-Luhnow draft was any indication, I'd say the club is in fine hands.

desmetlax12 wrote:

MagnoliaCardFan wrote: Keep in mind that our farm was very productive through the Jocketty years, too.

True, I won't dispute that, but I wouldn't say it was his emphasis on building his teams.  I look at his masterpiece that was the 2004 Cardinals and it only had two major contributors from the minors, Pujols and Morris (and I'm not sure if Jocketty was there long enough to influence the Morris draft pick or not).  Renteria, Rolen, Edmonds, Walker, Marques, Williams, and Izzy all came via trade.  Womack, Matheny, Suppan, and Carp all via free agency on bargain deals.  Jocketty was at his best when exploiting inefficiencies in the disparity between team payrolls, usually by sending mediocre prospects to obtain impact players.

It's not that important, but Izzy was via free agency.

Cardsfan914 wrote:

desmetlax12 wrote:

MagnoliaCardFan wrote: Keep in mind that our farm was very productive through the Jocketty years, too.

True, I won't dispute that, but I wouldn't say it was his emphasis on building his teams.  I look at his masterpiece that was the 2004 Cardinals and it only had two major contributors from the minors, Pujols and Morris (and I'm not sure if Jocketty was there long enough to influence the Morris draft pick or not).  Renteria, Rolen, Edmonds, Walker, Marques, Williams, and Izzy all came via trade.  Womack, Matheny, Suppan, and Carp all via free agency on bargain deals.  Jocketty was at his best when exploiting inefficiencies in the disparity between team payrolls, usually by sending mediocre prospects to obtain impact players.

It's not that important, but Izzy was via free agency.

Ah yes, you are correct.  I must have been thinking about losing a draft pick since he was a Type A free agent.  Remember those days?

hardheaded wrote: AA was stocked (packed),

AAA team was depleated, mostly because that they were recalled....

It will be interesting how they deal with OscarT in the spring 2013...

-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------
I guess a system is not bigger than one person or one player...the Cards have  system and they stick to it....

Interesting, how many 3rd baseman the Cards drafted
with David Freese on the major league roster....

What position they played when they were drafted is not necessarily the position they will play throughout their career.  I doubt all of those players will stick at 3B.

desmetlax12 wrote:

MagnoliaCardFan wrote: Keep in mind that our farm was very productive through the Jocketty years, too.

True, I won't dispute that, but I wouldn't say it was his emphasis on building his teams.  I look at his masterpiece that was the 2004 Cardinals and it only had two major contributors from the minors, Pujols and Morris (and I'm not sure if Jocketty was there long enough to influence the Morris draft pick or not).  Renteria, Rolen, Edmonds, Walker, Marques, Williams, and Izzy all came via trade.  Womack, Matheny, Suppan, and Carp all via free agency on bargain deals.  Jocketty was at his best when exploiting inefficiencies in the disparity between team payrolls, usually by sending mediocre prospects to obtain impact players.

Matt Morris was his first draft pick as a Card exec.  Izzy was a FA.

Collectively, Walt's draft picks have accounted for as many MLB, ABs/PAs (Hits, too)+ IPs as any other organization's, cummulative selections (actually, more than any other) during his tenure as Card's GM.  Sydney Dave did the grunt work a few years back.  SDave even took Pujols contributions out of the totals, and the Cardiinal draft picks were still 3rd overall in total contributions.  SDave also pointed out that the #2 organization, to the Cardinals, was Oakland--Walt's previous, long-standing employer (He was with the Rox for ~1 year, in between his stints with us and the A's).  Impressive, yet (arguably) underappreciated, if not unappreciated.  Cincy doesn't seem to be any the worse for his presence, either.

Luhnow is with the Astros now and look at where the Astros Minor League System has gone from his first year with them. Keith Law of ESPN said they probably have had the biggest six-month improvement of any farm system in the game. They both had a big impact on the Cardinals. I believe the loss of Luhnow big look at the draft classes we've had under him. But after seeing Wacha going to the Cardinals I know we will be ok. So I would say 60% Luhnow 40% Mo

jackattack030 wrote: Luhnow is with the Astros now and look at where the Astros Minor League System has gone from his first year with them. Keith Law of ESPN said they probably have had the biggest six-month improvement of any farm system in the game. They both had a big impact on the Cardinals. I believe the loss of Luhnow big look at the draft classes we've had under him. But after seeing Wacha going to the Cardinals I know we will be ok. So I would say 60% Luhnow 40% Mo

it should improve the most.  They had the #1 pick  and their owner finally opened up his pocket book to pay for draft choices.

CariocaCardinal wrote:

 

It should improve the most.  They had the #1 pick  and their owner finally opened up his pocket book to pay for draft choices.

Precisely.

Going from the basement...sub-basement, really, to mediocrity... well, it ain't that tricky.

The 'Stros' farm system will be (at least temporarily) congenitally overrated by the clowns at Baseball America for the same reason they've overrated the Cubs forever -- because they are not the Cardinals -- and represent antipathy toward the Birds.

Correa, Singleton, and a bunch of longshots; THAT'S what the Astros have in their allegedly top 10-12 system. We'll see how it pans out.

Delino DeShields Jr. is pretty legit.  He played in Lexington, where I live.

hardheaded wrote: AA was stocked (packed),

AAA team was depleated, mostly because that they were recalled....

It will be interesting how they deal with OscarT in the spring 2013...

-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------
I guess a system is not bigger than one person or one player...the Cards have  system and they stick to it....

Interesting, how many 3rd baseman the Cards drafted
with David Freese on the major league roster....

Memphis was depleted because of injuries early in the season for the parent club and they recalled a lot of prospects from Triple A and the organization filled those holes with minor league FA.

Oscar Taveras will get a strong look in ST it's doubtful cracks the MLB roster unless he really impresses with that violent controlled swing. Could be the first promoted if someone goes down with an injury during 2013 season.

BobReed wrote:

desmetlax12 wrote: I think Luhnow was a big loss, not just because of what he brought to the table himself, but also because he took some good people with him.

I'm glad you brought that up, des.

Is there a roster somewhere (besides Sig M.) of who Luhnow took with him to the Astros?

As much as I admire what happened under Jeff's watch, as long as the vast majority of worker bees remained -- and the pre-draft STOUT analysis system remains in place -- I don't see much cause for concern. In fact, if the first post-Luhnow draft was any indication, I'd say the club is in fine hands.

That STOUT system has been very successful from when Luhnow was in STL and post.