cardinalnationhouston wrote:

slappzilla wrote: I just directly accused Rickie Weeks of juicing without any proof either. Gonna tick me for allegedly "trolling" on my own team?

Melky Cabrera was having the year of his life last year. He was in line for the batting title. Then he tested bad...
Bartolo Colon was having a career resurgance the last couple of years. Then he tested bad...
Braun had the best year of his amazing career in 2011. Won MVP even. Then he tested bad...

I could do this for awhile

granted, my accusations towards Rickie are about his growth in size, not so much his numbers but the numbers were there too.

If I have reason to "accuse" any of your prestigious cardinals of taking PED's, I will post them. If it helps you sleep at night, you can turn around and "accuse" me of trolling when doing so. I'm just calling it has I see it, and I'm calling it as I see it against my own team as well, so let's stop the nonsense of me trolling the Cardinals.

Thing is that you don't have a reason to accuse Holliday or Molina. You have presented no evidence, just conjecture. Stop watching Glenn Beck dude it is frying your brain. Also you ARE trolling this board b/c this is where you are posting. No one here cares if you troll on other boards or accuse other teams players w/o any evidence. Why should we? You know Slappy if you come here defecating from your mouth that you WILL be called out on it here. By the way i am one who has said we have to give Braun a pass on last year b/c he was not convicted of anything.

What does glenn beck have to do with this?

grayssportsalmanac - He's a liberal and he knows (via my twitter I assume) that I'm an anti-liberal, so that's his way of flame baiting me.

cardinalnationhouston - I don't have to have a reason to accuse Yaddy or Holliday of taking PED's, as clearly you didn't get my overall point. Fact is I wasn't really accusing either them. I used them as examples geared towards my whole "you can't assume anyone innocent" theory regarding PED's. You and Brian are looking way too far into a simple opinion. Chill out.

the rest of your post consist of flaming and flame baiting and I will just look past it. I assume since you can't for a decent argument towards the discussion at hand that is what you resort too.

slappzilla wrote: I don't have to have a reason to accuse Yaddy or Holliday of taking PED's, as clearly you didn't get my overall point. Fact is I wasn't really accusing either them. I used them as examples geared towards my whole "you can't assume anyone innocent" theory regarding PED's.

slappzilla wrote: More roiderz

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2013-01-31/news/a-rod -and-doping-a-miami-clinic-supplies-drugs-to-sport s-biggest-names/

so when Holliday gets mentioned in this article for roiding (again) will you guys admit PED's are still rampant throughout MLB?

What if Yaddy gets mentioned?  Suppose you guys will all bail off the St. Louis bridge hey?

If you weren't accusing either of them, you had a poor choice of wording.  It sure appears that you say "WHEN Holliday gets mentioned" not "IF Holliday gets mentioned" and follow that with the word "again" that you are accusing Holliday.

As someone who has not used Braun's PED incident against him in any of these arguments, I still can't deny that I think he used.  To my knowledge, he has not been able to deny the use.  He has just used the argument that the sample was mishandled.

I agree that PEDs are probably still widely used across baseball.  At this point, no one would surprise me.  However, I can't say how many use PEDs.  Until the commissioner and MLB (owners, players and executives) choose to really resolve the problem, I can't get too excited about it.  Everyone involved seem to be turning their head to the problem.

I agree its not good form to call anyone SPECIFIC out for PEDs without proof. Whats sad is that our board has higher standards than HOF voters who decide to speculate as to who is using and who isnt based on how they look.

"I agree that PEDs are probably still widely used across baseball.  At this point, no one would surprise me."

Then you agree with me 100%

slappzilla wrote: "I agree that PEDs are probably still widely used across baseball.  At this point, no one would surprise me."

Then you agree with me 100%

No, I don't agree with you 100%.  I agree that anyone could be named and I wouldn't be surprised.  Don't try to twist my words to fit your meanings.

That still doesn't change the fact that YOUR words indicated that you are already accusing Holliday without any proof.

slappzilla wrote: I used them as examples geared towards my whole "you can't assume anyone innocent" theory regarding PED's.

Guilty until proven innocent. Sounds like something a Brewers fan would say since that's the exact path their superstar took. Although maybe the saying should really be, "Guilty but technically innocent!"

You actually can assume everyone is innocent, at least everyone who hasn't tested positive yet. This is, after all, still the United States of America. You can believe that and still not be surprised when someone gets busted. I'm never surprised when a player gets caught, but I also don't assume they are all guilty. And I also have confidence that some guys have more character (or is it just raw talent?) than others.

What sets clubs apart, I believe, is how the club handles the matter. I LOVE what the Giants did with Melky. Not every team would handle the situation like they did. The Brewers certainly didn't, although I guess you could say they "technically" didn't have to. Right, Shyam Das? Anyway, my hope is that IF a Cardinal got busted like, say, Ryan Braun, they would deal with it appropriately. No matter how painful or costly.

DMENS wrote:
Anyway, my hope is that IF a Cardinal got busted like, say, Ryan Braun, they would deal with it appropriately. No matter how painful or costly.

If 'appropriatly' would mean the Cards eating many millions, or disposing of an asset worth potentially many millions, I think you would be disappointed. Just my opinion.

blingboy wrote:

DMENS wrote:
Anyway, my hope is that IF a Cardinal got busted like, say, Ryan Braun, they would deal with it appropriately. No matter how painful or costly.

If 'appropriatly' would mean the Cards eating many millions, or disposing of an asset worth potentially many millions, I think you would be disappointed. Just my opinion.

We could see the Litmus test for this playing out real soon in New York with the ARoid situation. I think we are going to find out exactly what recourse the teams actually have as far as voiding a contract. It really matters not if you or i think Braun is guilty b/c the evidence was deemed unusable. My point is that he must be given the benefit of the doubt just like Clemens and Bonds IMO. Until it is proven at least. Yet another casualty of this whole drug mess is that now every player is a potential suspect, especially the really good players. This story is quickly getting a little creepy now and it is going to get far worse i think. I mean Canseco, Mr.Anderson, Bal co and now some shady doctor and his kid down in Miami.

As great of a player as braun is...hes not clemens or bonds. Also instead of keeping is mouth shut and buying his lawyer a nice gift hes blaming someone else for tampering with his sample..in effect...doubling down on his obvious lie. By doing so hes not only lying to fans but his implicating other innocent people ala lance armstrong.


Imo andy pettite...a lesser player who was also caught doping has a decent shot of still making hof. The reason is simply bc he came clean righf away. Americans can accept mistakes and appreciate it when people honestly own up to them. Braun is simply being a rat...
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--- cardinalnationhouston wrote:

blingboy wrote:

DMENS wrote:
Anyway, my hope is that IF a Cardinal got busted like, say, Ryan Braun, they would deal with it appropriately. No matter how painful or costly.

If 'appropriatly' would mean the Cards eating many millions, or disposing of an asset worth potentially many millions, I think you would be disappointed. Just my opinion.

We could see the Litmus test for this playing out real soon in New York with the ARoid situation. I think we are going to find out exactly what recourse the teams actually have as far as voiding a contract. It really matters not if you or i think Braun is guilty b/c the evidence was deemed unusable. My point is that he must be given the benefit of the doubt just like Clemens and Bonds IMO. Until it is proven at least. Yet another casualty of this whole drug mess is that now every player is a potential suspect, especially the really good players. This story is quickly getting a little creepy now and it is going to get far worse i think. I mean Canseco, Mr.Anderson, Bal co and now some shady doctor and his kid down in Miami.

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--- grayssportsalmanac wrote:

As great of a player as braun is...hes not clemens or bonds.


Imo andy pettite...a lesser player who was also caught doping has a decent shot of still making hof. The reason is simply bc he came clean righf away. Americans can accept mistakes and appreciate it when people honestly own up to them. Braun is simply being a rat...
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The sky would have been the limit if Brauny would have been given free reign to roid for another 10 years, Grays. I'm sure he feels cheated that baseball *greats* such as Bonds and Clemens enjoyed such long storied careers of care-free roiding.

Right you are on the Pettite comments too, Grays. Just shows you how stupid these guys are. Yeah I know how big their egos are, but come on now! One player(Pettite) admits to it and doesn't offer up some cockamamie excuse and he's not dogged by the media or fans one iota and then you have scores of others who lied about it after being rightfully accused and they are treated worse than some chump who got arrested for knocking a 90 year old woman to the turf while in the act of absconding with her purse. I'd admit to it so quick your head would spun. Heck I don't even associate Andy Pettite with PEDs. Should he be considered for The Hall when that day arrives? I'd vote him in at the drop of a hat.

grayssportsalmanac wrote: As great of a player as braun is...hes not clemens or bonds. Also instead of keeping is mouth shut and buying his lawyer a nice gift hes blaming someone else for tampering with his sample..in effect...doubling down on his obvious lie. By doing so hes not only lying to fans but his implicating other innocent people ala lance armstrong.

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If Braun plays as long as Bonds did, he will finish his career a better player than Bonds.  Book it.  That's another topic though...

I agree Braun should have just been happy regarding getting off on the technicality.  I think he went out of his way through the media to blast the carrier in order to protect his brand going forward.  Wouldn't be surprised if his PR people had him do all that.

Braun took PED's, knocked out an MVP award the season he was caught taking them, beat the charge (OJ style, admittedly), and then came back the season after and put up even better stats than he did the previous year.  Either he is so ballsy that he just jumped right back on the PED's again...or he's that damn good.  Either way, I'm glad he sports a Brewer jersey, and will be doing so through 2020 at the least.

Buster Olney sent out a tweet the other day - "the risk vs. reward factor in MLB players taking PED's favors the reward side too much, especially with minor league players". 

Always remember the Chemists are two years in front of the testers...Just sayin...

slappzilla wrote: If Braun plays as long as Bonds did, he will finish his career a better player than Bonds.  Book it..

You may want to review Bonds' stats.  Braun will have a very hard time duplicating them.  As an example:  he is already 20 HRs behind Bonds' pace and Bonds averaged 44 HRs per season over his age 29-39 seasons.

I don't see it happening.  He will end up with good numbers, if he stays healthy, but not better than Bonds.

To add something else to the discussion about PED use:  they do not help someone hit the ball.  They help the body heal faster.  It allows players to get stronger when they are doing a weight lifting regimen.  The drug, by itself, does nothing to help a baseball player improve on the field.

slappzilla wrote:

grayssportsalmanac wrote: As great of a player as braun is...hes not clemens or bonds. Also instead of keeping is mouth shut and buying his lawyer a nice gift hes blaming someone else for tampering with his sample..in effect...doubling down on his obvious lie. By doing so hes not only lying to fans but his implicating other innocent people ala lance armstrong.

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If Braun plays as long as Bonds did, he will finish his career a better player than Bonds.  Book it.  That's another topic though...

I agree Braun should have just been happy regarding getting off on the technicality.  I think he went out of his way through the media to blast the carrier in order to protect his brand going forward.  Wouldn't be surprised if his PR people had him do all that.

Braun took PED's, knocked out an MVP award the season he was caught taking them, beat the charge (OJ style, admittedly), and then came back the season after and put up even better stats than he did the previous year.  Either he is so ballsy that he just jumped right back on the PED's again...or he's that damn good.  Either way, I'm glad he sports a Brewer jersey, and will be doing so through 2020 at the least.

Buster Olney sent out a tweet the other day - "the risk vs. reward factor in MLB players taking PED's favors the reward side too much, especially with minor league players". 

Always remember the Chemists are two years in front of the testers...Just sayin...

I agree, but I dont know if it is for braun. Bartolo colon though, just as an example, has not reason not to take PEDs. None...

Something else interesting about Bonds: from his age 36 season through his age 39 season he averaged 52 HRs and a 256 OPS+. There have been 59 individual seasons with a 200+ OPS. Babe Ruth has 11 of them and Bonds and Ted Williams have 6 of them a piece. Pujols has 0.

Bonds has 13 season with an OPS+ more than Braun's best OPS+ to date.

Ok, fine. Braun will never match Bonds HR total. I didn't realize he was mashing so many HR's at an early age too.

Bartolo Colon admitted the roids "kept him sharp". He was a good pitcher on that yankee squad two years ago and was decent on the A's before getting busted.

Ask batting title Melky about PED's helping you hit the ball. You think he had that magical season, which subsequently ended abruptly when he was busted for PED's, because he just started connecting better?  Heck of a coincidence batman.

slappzilla wrote: Bartolo Colon admitted the roids "kept him sharp". He was a good pitcher on that yankee squad two years ago and was decent on the A's before getting busted.

Ask batting title Melky about PED's helping you hit the ball. You think he had that magical season, which subsequently ended abruptly when he was busted for PED's, because he just started connecting better?  Heck of a coincidence batman.

What about PEDs helps your hand-eye coordination?  What do you think that PEDs actually do for a person?

You can get more muscle to hit it farther/harder.  That might make the difference on some hits.  The ball would get to a possible hole quicker if it was hit harder or it could go over the fence.

slappzilla wrote: Ask batting title Melky about PED's helping you hit the ball. You think he had that magical season, which subsequently ended abruptly when he was busted for PED's, because he just started connecting better?  Heck of a coincidence batman.

Melky hit .305 in 2011.  Melky hit for average in the minors.

He came up to the majors as a 21 year old.  He was 27 in 2012.  That is about the time most players start to peak.

slappzilla wrote: grayssportsalmanac - He's a liberal and he knows (via my twitter I assume) that I'm an anti-liberal, so that's his way of flame baiting me.

cardinalnationhouston - I don't have to have a reason to accuse Yaddy or Holliday of taking PED's, as clearly you didn't get my overall point. Fact is I wasn't really accusing either them. I used them as examples geared towards my whole "you can't assume anyone innocent" theory regarding PED's. You and Brian are looking way too far into a simple opinion. Chill out.

the rest of your post consist of flaming and flame baiting and I will just look past it. I assume since you can't for a decent argument towards the discussion at hand that is what you resort too.

Democrat i will admit to. Liberal, not hardly. At least when it comes to crime and immigration. Anyhow my point is that life is more complicated than just labeling people or things. I get what you are saying that everyone is now a suspect but you took a long path to get there my friend. Guilt by association so to speak which i think is a real shame. Truth is anytime you or anyone else comes here to torch our players you can expect some resistance, especially when it is crap like comparing Lucroy to Molina or speculating about PED users. Some consider me a Steroid apologist b/c i think Bonds and Clemens should be in the Hall and even Mcgwire. These players all belong on ability alone and there is no proof or even an estimate as to how PED affect HR's. I also think they benefit the pitchers more anyways. Add to that the known use of uppers and other pills for decades and other known forms of cheating and to me there is just not enough proven benefit to cost these players enshrinement. If MLB really wanted this to stop it would have right after the Mitchell report. In my opinion the League office, Bud, trainers, staff and clubhouse people are also guilty as enablers and in some cases even drug dealers. I honestly think baseball has got to stop this ASAP. The fact that anyone in pro baseball is still getting caught doing PED's is a big fail for MLB and sort of embarrassing.