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Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013

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Posted: 1/3/2013 2:43 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 


Posted: 1/3/2013 3:28 PM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 


This is the thing that I don't completely like about Mo. I know strategically it's not good to start the bidding but he should at least keep in touch with Lohse. He should be upfront about it. We would like you back but due to budget constraints we won't be able to be the first team making a bid as we then wouldn't be able to match others and obviously it won't be a quick signing. That way you don't make the player feel like they aren't welcomed back. That was one of the main reasons that Josh Hamiliton didn't resign with the Rangers.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 3:38 PM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 


Seems to me that it is at least as much Boras' responsibility to keep the lines of communications open with the GMs. He is the seller. Of course, we have no idea if the two aren't talking regularly.

It seems unlikely that Lohse is handling negotiations personally.
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
Follow both Brian and TCN on Twitter

Last edited 1/3/2013 3:43 PM by Domeboys

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Posted: 1/3/2013 4:04 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 


I agree with Brian. It's Boras' responsibility. 

I don't see why Mo has to tell Boras something he already knows. Boras knows he can't get the Multi year deal he desires for his client from the Cardinals. Why should either party be talking to one another at this point or at any point over the last 3 months? I seriously doubt Kyle will have to settle for a one year deal. I'm assuming that he's holding out for a 4 year deal and I'd imagine there isn't a GM in baseball that wants to guarantee Kyle more than 3. Once he/Boras realizes that no team is desperate enough to give Kyle 4 years he'll settle for a shorter deal. I know for a fact Boston was interested in Lohse on a 3 year deal, I'd also assume that the Dodgers might be interested in a 2 year deal, possibly the Angels also.

Posted: 1/3/2013 5:18 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 



stlcards5129 wrote: I agree with Brian. It's Boras' responsibility. 

I don't see why Mo has to tell Boras something he already knows. Boras knows he can't get the Multi year deal he desires for his client from the Cardinals. Why should either party be talking to one another at this point or at any point over the last 3 months? I seriously doubt Kyle will have to settle for a one year deal. I'm assuming that he's holding out for a 4 year deal and I'd imagine there isn't a GM in baseball that wants to guarantee Kyle more than 3. Once he/Boras realizes that no team is desperate enough to give Kyle 4 years he'll settle for a shorter deal. I know for a fact Boston was interested in Lohse on a 3 year deal, I'd also assume that the Dodgers might be interested in a 2 year deal, possibly the Angels also.
Kyle may not want to play for Boston for any amount.  Same with LA.  Who knows?  There may not be a single club out there that a) will give him the big, fat contract he wants, and b) he is willing to sign with. I thought he might end up with the Angels... or some team that has already lost their 1st round pick.

I love Kyle and I don't mind having too much pitching depth (which is impossible).  But I really don't see how it would work ($ wise) for the Cardinals.  They did offer him a qualifying contract though, which may or may not mean anything.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 5:46 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 



nbr1hawkeye wrote:
stlcards5129 wrote: I agree with Brian. It's Boras' responsibility. 

I don't see why Mo has to tell Boras something he already knows. Boras knows he can't get the Multi year deal he desires for his client from the Cardinals. Why should either party be talking to one another at this point or at any point over the last 3 months? I seriously doubt Kyle will have to settle for a one year deal. I'm assuming that he's holding out for a 4 year deal and I'd imagine there isn't a GM in baseball that wants to guarantee Kyle more than 3. Once he/Boras realizes that no team is desperate enough to give Kyle 4 years he'll settle for a shorter deal. I know for a fact Boston was interested in Lohse on a 3 year deal, I'd also assume that the Dodgers might be interested in a 2 year deal, possibly the Angels also.
Kyle may not want to play for Boston for any amount.  Same with LA.  Who knows?  There may not be a single club out there that a) will give him the big, fat contract he wants, and b) he is willing to sign with. I thought he might end up with the Angels... or some team that has already lost their 1st round pick.

I love Kyle and I don't mind having too much pitching depth (which is impossible).  But I really don't see how it would work ($ wise) for the Cardinals.  They did offer him a qualifying contract though, which may or may not mean anything.
The only teams Kyle has been connected to all off-season is Boston and the 2 LA teams IIRC. So if he doesn't want to go to LA or Boston it sounds like he is outta luck. Considering he's been a Boras client his entire career I'm sure he'll sign with whatever team offers him the most cash, especially since he has won a Championship already, is 34 years old and this is likely his last large contract.

The qualifying contract offer was a formality. The offer was necessary for the Cardinals to receive Draft Pick Compensation when he signed elsewhere, he has already declined it. It's irrelevant at this point. 

I agree there isn't such a thing as too much pitching depth. There is a point where it isn't worth it. This is a business and adding another starter at a very high price when it isn't absolutely necessary is a bad business decision.

Posted: 1/3/2013 6:01 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 


Well that is interesting.  

I'm not confident that Garcia will be able to be a starter in 2013... or pitch at all, for that matter.  If the team has similar concerns, they might consider a 1 year deal with Lohse.  Any other scenarios would seem to require trading a starter at some point during the season. 

---------------------------------------------
--- Jmodene1 wrote:

At least one writer thinks it's possible Lohse comes back:

www.grantland.com/blog/...-other-mlb-news
---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 1/3/2013 6:15 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 



stlcards5129 wrote:
nbr1hawkeye wrote:
stlcards5129 wrote: I agree with Brian. It's Boras' responsibility. 

I don't see why Mo has to tell Boras something he already knows. Boras knows he can't get the Multi year deal he desires for his client from the Cardinals. Why should either party be talking to one another at this point or at any point over the last 3 months? I seriously doubt Kyle will have to settle for a one year deal. I'm assuming that he's holding out for a 4 year deal and I'd imagine there isn't a GM in baseball that wants to guarantee Kyle more than 3. Once he/Boras realizes that no team is desperate enough to give Kyle 4 years he'll settle for a shorter deal. I know for a fact Boston was interested in Lohse on a 3 year deal, I'd also assume that the Dodgers might be interested in a 2 year deal, possibly the Angels also.
Kyle may not want to play for Boston for any amount.  Same with LA.  Who knows?  There may not be a single club out there that a) will give him the big, fat contract he wants, and b) he is willing to sign with. I thought he might end up with the Angels... or some team that has already lost their 1st round pick.

I love Kyle and I don't mind having too much pitching depth (which is impossible).  But I really don't see how it would work ($ wise) for the Cardinals.  They did offer him a qualifying contract though, which may or may not mean anything.
The only teams Kyle has been connected to all off-season is Boston and the 2 LA teams IIRC. So if he doesn't want to go to LA or Boston it sounds like he is outta luck. Considering he's been a Boras client his entire career I'm sure he'll sign with whatever team offers him the most cash, especially since he has won a Championship already, is 34 years old and this is likely his last large contract.

The qualifying contract offer was a formality. The offer was necessary for the Cardinals to receive Draft Pick Compensation when he signed elsewhere, he has already declined it. It's irrelevant at this point. 

I agree there isn't such a thing as too much pitching depth. There is a point where it isn't worth it. This is a business and adding another starter at a very high price when it isn't absolutely necessary is a bad business decision.
This is why i think the dodgers are out of the running on Lohse. they have added Greinke, Beckett and Korean lefty Jin-Ryu for the rotation this offseason already. The Giants do not have a spot either. my belief is that it will be a West coast team so that leaves the Angels and the A's. No offense to San Diego.

GO CARDS!

Posted: 1/3/2013 6:19 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 



stlcards5129 wrote:
The only teams Kyle has been connected to all off-season is Boston and the 2 LA teams IIRC. So if he doesn't want to go to LA or Boston it sounds like he is outta luck. Considering he's been a Boras client his entire career I'm sure he'll sign with whatever team offers him the most cash, especially since he has won a Championship already, is 34 years old and this is likely his last large contract.

He said he wanted to play for a team that could contend (I am paraphrasing).  It was more like the "right situation" and "money wasn't the # number 1 priority"  Also, he took 2 below market contracts from STL.  So, I'm not convinced he will take the biggest contract offered.

The qualifying contract offer was a formality. The offer was necessary for the Cardinals to receive Draft Pick Compensation when he signed elsewhere, he has already declined it. It's irrelevant at this point.

When the Cards offered the contract, they took some risk that he would accept it.  I realize that it was a very small risk, but it wasn't zero risk. 

I agree there isn't such a thing as too much pitching depth. There is a point where it isn't worth it. This is a business and adding another starter at a very high price when it isn't absolutely necessary is a bad business decision.

It would be a lot of money and I think it would be prohibitive for STL, but none of us knows how much they are willing to put into their 2013 payroll.

I have posted a couple of scenarios where it would be a possibility, but I know how low those odds are.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 6:20 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 



nbr1hawkeye wrote: Well that is interesting.  

I'm not confident that Garcia will be able to be a starter in 2013... or pitch at all, for that matter.  If the team has similar concerns, they might consider a 1 year deal with Lohse.  Any other scenarios would seem to require trading a starter at some point during the season. 

---------------------------------------------
--- Jmodene1 wrote:

At least one writer thinks it's possible Lohse comes back:

www.grantland.com/blog/...-other-mlb-news
---------------------------------------------
I don't see any reason to believe that Garcia won't pitch at all in 2013 he's already pitched off of a mound and feels well enough to pitch in the World Baseball Classic this spring. I seriously doubt he approaches 200 innings, but he will pitch.

I think Lohse is a long way away from being willing to accept a 1 year deal. He waited until March of '08 to sign his 1 year deal for the 2008 season and he wasn't coming off of a season where he received CYA votes. I have a very hard time believing Lohse will ever reach a point this off season where he becomes desperate enough to accept a 1 year deal. I can't see the Cardinals ever being willing to give him more money than teams like Boston or LA who have more of a need for a starter. 

I don't see why the Cardinals would have to resort to a trade unless 4 Starters went down. The depth they have right now there are 8 pitchers who are capable of starting. Unless all 4 of the starters are lost for the season to their hypothetical injuries, then I could see the need to be desperate enough to explore a trade.

I read the article JMo posted. I disagreed with it. At the end they even conceded they might not be that informed. They say "Our semi-informed guesses". I just can't see any situation where the Cardinals are willing to spend more on Lohse than any other team. I just can't see him back with the Cardinals.

Last edited 1/3/2013 6:23 PM by stlcards5129

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Posted: 1/3/2013 6:30 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
This is why i think the dodgers are out of the running on Lohse. they have added Greinke, Beckett and Korean lefty Jin-Ryu for the rotation this offseason already. The Giants do not have a spot either. my belief is that it will be a West coast team so that leaves the Angels and the A's. No offense to San Diego.
I'd count the Giants out for sure.

I wouldn't count the Dodgers out. They've demonstrated their willingness to throw money around over the last 5 months, the mega deal to Grienke, the Korean investment and the mega trade with Boston. They're moves have gotten me to the point where I don't expect them to act rationally. I could see them trading some of their other pitching depth and adding Lohse to bolster their rotation. I don't think it's more likely than the Angels or Boston signing him, I just can't put anything past the Dodgers. They've shown a willingness to spend crazy amounts of money.

Posted: 1/3/2013 6:42 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 



I don't see any reason to believe that Garcia won't pitch at all in 2013 he's already pitched off of a mound and feels well enough to pitch in the World Baseball Classic this spring. I seriously doubt he approaches 200 innings, but he will pitch.

I hope you are right, but I've heard that line too many times before.

I think Lohse is a long way away from being willing to accept a 1 year deal. He waited until March of '08 to sign his 1 year deal for the 2008 season and he wasn't coming off of a season where he received CYA votes. I have a very hard time believing Lohse will ever reach a point this off season where he becomes desperate enough to accept a 1 year deal. I can't see the Cardinals ever being willing to give him more money than teams like Boston or LA who have more of a need for a starter.

I am 99.44% sure you are right on this. 

I don't see why the Cardinals would have to resort to a trade unless 4 Starters went down. The depth they have right now there are 8 pitchers who are capable of starting. Unless all 4 of the starters are lost for the season to their hypothetical injuries, then I could see the need to be desperate enough to explore a trade.

I'd like to keep some of our pitching talent at Memphis (at least for most of the year).  Besides, wouldn't you like to be able to add someone like Felix Hernandez or Price at the deadline if needed.  Westbrook and Miller might perk up Seattle's ears.

Posted: 1/3/2013 6:51 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 


I'm still sticking with my first comment. No and No. Bottom line is they are going to have to blow there wad to sign Waino. That said they have some youngsters who can flat out pitch right now in the majors ( Miller, Rosey, Kelly, Lynn ) not to mention some we haven't seen up yet. I think it would be stupid to sign Lohse unless we can con some team into picking up Westbrook.  Maybe we can trade Westbrook and Lynn and prospect to Texas for Andrus and low prospect . Then sign Lohse to a 1yr. deal at  13 mil. That would never happen but I would do cartwheels if it did !! and I've never done Cartwheels
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Posted: 1/3/2013 8:26 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 



nbr1hawkeye wrote:
I don't see any reason to believe that Garcia won't pitch at all in 2013 he's already pitched off of a mound and feels well enough to pitch in the World Baseball Classic this spring. I seriously doubt he approaches 200 innings, but he will pitch.

I hope you are right, but I've heard that line too many times before.

I think Lohse is a long way away from being willing to accept a 1 year deal. He waited until March of '08 to sign his 1 year deal for the 2008 season and he wasn't coming off of a season where he received CYA votes. I have a very hard time believing Lohse will ever reach a point this off season where he becomes desperate enough to accept a 1 year deal. I can't see the Cardinals ever being willing to give him more money than teams like Boston or LA who have more of a need for a starter.

I am 99.44% sure you are right on this. 

I don't see why the Cardinals would have to resort to a trade unless 4 Starters went down. The depth they have right now there are 8 pitchers who are capable of starting. Unless all 4 of the starters are lost for the season to their hypothetical injuries, then I could see the need to be desperate enough to explore a trade.

I'd like to keep some of our pitching talent at Memphis (at least for most of the year).  Besides, wouldn't you like to be able to add someone like Felix Hernandez or Price at the deadline if needed.  Westbrook and Miller might perk up Seattle's ears.
I understand the skepticism regarding Garcia, I'm a bit skeptical too. I'd just rather wait and see. As of right now it sounds like he's healthy. I'll wait for his arm to fall of at his shoulder before I count him out of the rotation. devil

I've caught flack in the past with my opinions of what other GMs would want in return for trades. I think Miller would interest Seattle for sure, Westbrook not so much. Besides Westbrook has a NTC and probably wouldn't be to enthusiastic about battling with the Astros to stay out of the bottom of the AL west. For a guy like Hernandez I'd use the Halladay deal a few years back as a template and the Jays got 3 Top Prospects (at the time) from Philly. I'd imagine that would be Seattle's price. That being said, Felix is a FA in 2 seasons (after 2014). If you think Grienke got a lot of money wait 'til Felix gets paid, he'll probably break every single contract record for a pitcher. A deal for Hernandez would essentially be a 2 year rental.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 10:06 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 


With such a finite amount of money left in the budget, why even consider bringing back Lohse when we could use that money to shore up the middle infield or get a RH bat for CF? Our pitching depth is not a problem.

Posted: 1/3/2013 10:14 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 



stlcards5129 wrote:
I understand the skepticism regarding Garcia, I'm a bit skeptical too. I'd just rather wait and see. As of right now it sounds like he's healthy. I'll wait for his arm to fall of at his shoulder before I count him out of the rotation. devil
I do applaud your optimism, but I am pretty close to being just the opposite.

I've caught flack in the past with my opinions of what other GMs would want in return for trades. I think Miller would interest Seattle for sure, Westbrook not so much. Besides Westbrook has a NTC and probably wouldn't be to enthusiastic about battling with the Astros to stay out of the bottom of the AL west. For a guy like Hernandez I'd use the Halladay deal a few years back as a template and the Jays got 3 Top Prospects (at the time) from Philly. I'd imagine that would be Seattle's price. That being said, Felix is a FA in 2 seasons (after 2014). If you think Grienke got a lot of money wait 'til Felix gets paid, he'll probably break every single contract record for a pitcher. A deal for Hernandez would essentially be a 2 year rental.

I checked Cot's and there is no mention of a NTC in Westbrook's new contract (there was one in his previous contract).  I'm sure that Westbrook/Miller would not get a deal done, but Westbrook would amount to an immediate replacement of innings (with an option that could be worth exercising).  Miller would be the future replacement (and the primary piece).  The Cards would have to throw in at least one other prospect (Adams?) or two (Blair/Jenkins).  Something like that.  

Hernandez would be hard to sign, so if the Cards don't plan on paying up for him, they should not trade for him... imo.  But I think they have the money to pay him... and Wainwright too.  It is just a question of would they spend it.
.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 11:50 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 


A new nutty trade idea that is even worse than Bowden's CarGo one. This is from ESPN's David Schoenfeld. The title of the article says it all: "Impossible Giancarlo Stanton trade ideas."

Taveras, Miller, Rosenthal AND Craig for Stanton!

Wonder why he didn't throw in Wong and Martinez, too...eek1
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
Follow both Brian and TCN on Twitter
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Posted: 1/4/2013 5:30 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 


I really like Dave Schoenfeld but that is a horrible idea..
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Posted: 1/4/2013 8:15 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 


I blogged about it here.
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
Follow both Brian and TCN on Twitter
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Posted: 1/4/2013 9:01 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012-2013 



Domeboys wrote: A new nutty trade idea that is even worse than Bowden's CarGo one. This is from ESPN's David Schoenfeld. The title of the article says it all: "Impossible Giancarlo Stanton trade ideas."

Taveras, Miller, Rosenthal AND Craig for Stanton!

Wonder why he didn't throw in Wong and Martinez, too...eek1

Good grief, that is crazy. Stanton is going to be phenomenal but he isn't quite at the Gehrig, Mantle, and Mays level just yet.
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