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Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012

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Posted: 12/19/2012 6:35 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


Did you see trade deadline whipping boy Jason Vargas was traded to the Angels for Kendreys Morales?

I think this may be a steal for the Angels.

 Suggested U. of Illinois mascots

Posted: 12/19/2012 9:28 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


I'm curious to see what he does with the Angels. Looking at his numbers he was good last season and he had a strong 2010, but the rest of his seven year career hasn't been all the impressive. It'll be interesting to see how much of an effect Safeco had on his success.
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Posted: 12/20/2012 12:36 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



619illinibooyah wrote: Did you see trade deadline whipping boy Jason Vargas was traded to the Angels for Kendreys Morales?

I think this may be a steal for the Angels.
depends on the health of Morales. Granted his numbers are West coast numbers but this guy is a very good hitter. This is a landslide trade for Seattle if Morales can play. Vargas is just bad and i for one am glad the Vargas to the Lou rumors were false. Batting practice hangars make him an ERA nightmare even when he throws well. He is a lefty. Anaheim should be desparate b/c their staff looks terrible so far. Weaver and a bunch of 4's and 5's. They just gave up a major league power bat for Jason Vargas????

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 12/20/2012 9:57 AM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


to me this is all good reasoning... and i think MO shoudl be proactive with the international market for SS depth..i woudl have said lefty relief depth too, but i think with RZep and Choate...Freeman and Browning...we have serviceable guys enough to be around and "ready" whiel we draft up replacements

-we dont really have much coming in the minors for SS (all due respect to Garcia and Mejia)
-the FA's available now arent worth investing in for more than a year
-the trade partners will want to win the trade and that makes us overpay

Diaz...and i think looking at that Cuban outfielder too would be smart.

Maybe he doesnt live up to the hype, but he at least offers upside and youth. Might we overpay a little? Sure, but at least the investment is for somethign with a higher ceiling. 

Would 4 years 8mil get it done for the kid? Is that too much?  2mil per year seems a worthwhile investment. That would let us have him for 23-27, plenty of time to see if he has the skills. And even if he only amounts to a utility player, that is still not terrible money. Even sitting in the minors for a year he would still be useful. Also it sets us up to re-sign him for his potential "prime" years of 27-32.

I wonder in general about our International dealings, i feel we dont even look to the East or at Cuba at all, and that seems to be where the more "ready to go" players are coming (due to their professional leagues).

The options arent really out there for anything better. Yeah we coudl sign Alex Gonzalez to sit around and back up, but that wont serve any long term solutions.

I was surprised when we didnt go after a SS in the 1st rd last year. I guess we are aiming for a FA at some point, either that or Moz and co. really though Tyler Greene coudl be an everyday SS.

Garcia and Mejia looks promising, and cheap right now...and yeah we have some glut at the top with Jackson, and Kozma.

Why not go for this Diaz kid and let him also get some CF time, same goes for Jackson and Kozma at 2b and 3b.  If i remember right when alexei Ramirez of the CWS caem up he was playing CF and SS and maybe 2b too...i woudl bet the kid coudl probably figure it out.

do it moz

stlcards5129 wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
PadsFS wrote: Where?  Arizona and Oakland were the most desperate. 

I'd say we SHOULD be desperate considering our current options and he SHOULD recognize that there is a huge opportunity here if it came down to it.
I could not agree more. Lets not forget that Furcal was not good before the arm injury last year, at least for the last four months. Kozma has no track record of sucess at any level other than the last two months last season. He was very shaky in the field to me. I think all we need to know about Jackson is that Matheny did not play him even in the blow outs. I do not expect him to break camp with St.Louis at all. Any chance to get an upper SS should be explored IMO especially considering that this is a week point throughout the organization. It's going to hurt though b/c there are so few of these guys and like 5129 has said no one trades them. To me this is by far the weak spot onn this club even if Furcal plays. I like Raffy a lot but i fear this is the end for him. When he stops getting on base his overallvalue is not good IMO
Yep

There's only a few ways to acquire a good shortstop. Overpay incredibly in free agency, overpay incredibly in a trade or draft and develop. I'd love to see the Cards sign Diaz, there's this incredible option staring Mo in the face. He has the chance to sign a SS at a reasonable market price. It's a roll of the dice, but it could have a very nice payoff.
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Posted: 12/20/2012 12:45 PM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


Brewers to add lefty Tom Gorzelanny for $6 million over two years.
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
Follow both Brian and TCN on Twitter

Posted: 12/20/2012 1:04 PM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


Diaz will likely cost more than $2M AAV.

I'd say more like $16-20M over 4-5 years.

Likely more. I don't really know.
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Posted: 12/20/2012 1:42 PM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



PadsFS wrote: Diaz will likely cost more than $2M AAV.

I'd say more like $16-20M over 4-5 years.

Likely more. I don't really know.
$20-$24 Million over 4 years sounds about right. $5-$6 Annually maybe more. Depends how many teams are competing for him . 

He's going to get paid pretty well. That's were the gamble comes in.

Posted: 12/20/2012 2:33 PM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



Domeboys wrote: Brewers to add lefty Tom Gorzelanny for $6 million over two years.
Cubs add E-Jax and Brewers add Gorzy. Both are pitchers we've been able to tee off lately. Unless either of those guys rediscover their magic, I like both these signings from a Cardinals perspective.

Posted: 12/20/2012 6:20 PM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



thejager wrote: Diaz...and i think looking at that Cuban outfielder too would be smart.

I think I was the first to suggest Diaz.  I'm happy so many others agree with me  I don't always fair so well.  Maybe we SHOULD sign the outfielder.  I don't think he has as much upside as Diaz, but it would improve our depth and may help us sign Diaz.

Would 4 years 8mil get it done for the kid? Is that too much?  2mil per year seems a worthwhile investment. That would let us have him for 23-27, plenty of time to see if he has the skills. And even if he only amounts to a utility player, that is still not terrible money. Even sitting in the minors for a year he would still be useful. Also it sets us up to re-sign him for his potential "prime" years of 27-32.

It is hard to say what he is worth. There is so little known about him (at least I haven't found much about him).  From what I do know, I would guess that his chance of landing a major league contract is at least 50/50.  

If that is what it takes, I would consider making room for him somehow.  I doubt the Cardinals would do that.  There's a chance (perhaps a good chance) they won't sign him to a minor league contract (even if that is all he gets).  

I think 4yrs/$8M is a reasonable guess.  I was thinking he'd get somewhere between 5yrs/$10M and 5yrs/$15M (based on what little I know).  I would also consider a creative extension that would add 2 or 3 years (buyout included in above figures).  That could take him though age 29 or 30 for maybe $40M over 8 years  (AAV = $5M).
 

Garcia and Mejia looks promising, and cheap right now...and yeah we have some glut at the top with Jackson, and Kozma.

Garcia and Mejia are promising, but they are too far away to project with a high level of confidence.  I think Diaz could be in the Kolten Wong class.

Last edited 12/20/2012 6:41 PM by nbr1hawkeye

Posted: 12/20/2012 6:37 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


The views on Diaz are all over the place, at least on the AAV.  I think that shows just how little we know about him.  The range is $2M to $6M. Four or 5 years seems to be the consensus length though.  It really is hard to say.  I haven't seen any scouting reports on him.  I know his age and his stats for Cuba, that's about it.

Some people here seem to think he may need some time at AAA, a view I think could be right.  No one (that I know of) has ventured to say if he will get a major league deal or not.  I think it is likely, though not absolutely certain.  If he gets 4/16 to 5/30, it will no doubt be a major league deal.  I think these guesses are on the high side, with 4/8 being the lower boundary.

Last edited 12/20/2012 6:45 PM by nbr1hawkeye

Posted: 12/20/2012 6:47 PM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


Maybe we did ok on Choate.
Domeboys wrote: Brewers to add lefty Tom Gorzelanny for $6 million over two years.
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Posted: 12/20/2012 9:15 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


The cards said they have a good core and don't need to make many offseason transactions. I check mlbtraderumors daily to see what the rumors are...is it just me or are the rangers, angels, and rays just looking and buying everything that moves in major league baseball??? I guess throw in the Dodgers too...it seems like these teams have 50 man rosters and fort knox behind them. How many players can these teams throw a towel in on-ha.  The yanks are actually coming across as cheapskates for once. Maybe they have realized spending a quarter of a billion dollars doesnt win championships!

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Posted: 12/20/2012 10:25 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


All we need to finish out the offseason is to solidify our middle infield depth. I say sign Ronny Cedeno to a one year deal at $1m and get ready for Jupiter. (Besides our arby cases and Waino extension).
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Posted: 12/21/2012 12:24 PM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



nbr1hawkeye wrote: Maybe we did ok on Choate.
Domeboys wrote: Brewers to add lefty Tom Gorzelanny for $6 million over two years.
Hey someone had to say it. Great point Hawkeye! biggrin

GO CARDS!

Posted: 12/21/2012 8:59 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



GScottAR wrote: All we need to finish out the offseason is to solidify our middle infield depth. I say sign Ronny Cedeno to a one year deal at $1m and get ready for Jupiter. (Besides our arby cases and Waino extension).
I agree with your first statement completely.  I'm not thrilled with the Cedeno idea though.

Who would you waiver to make room for him?  I don't think I would give him a major league contract.  If he wants a minor league deal... and a spring training invite, fine.

We need to sign a ss/mi that will take a minor league contract, but will also be able to serve as a back-up if necessary.  Cedeno might do that.  But, my personal preference is Aledmys Diaz.  

If other teams are willing to give him a major league deal, I think the Cards should get seriously into the discussions.  The better the prospect he is perceived by ML GM's, the more years and guaranteed dollars he will get.  

Of course, even if we competed for him, there is no way to guarantee that he would choose to come to StL.  After all, if he is "that" good who will steal him away from the Yankees?  Or Boston?  Or the Dodgers?  The Angels?  Braves? or even the Cubs, Marlins, and maybe even TB, (if one of those teams... or any team, is bound and determined to sign him).  He will ultimately choose someone, and no matter how hard we try, he could choose almost anyone else... even TB imo (they have a place for him and they are winners and TB is close to Cuba).   

My gut says he will get a major league contract.  My guess... 5yrs/$15M (including any option buyout).  If that is what it takes, I think we should make it hard for him to go anywhere else.  A 5yr/$25M contract seems high to me, but who knows, anything is possible I guess.  Perhaps signing the Cuban OF would help our chances.

About the option, perhaps a creative 3 or 4 year extension.   Something like a $5M buyout (included in first deal above) on a 3 or 4 year extension for somewhere between $22M and $35M... and would keep him in the organization until his early 30's (if all goes well).  Of course, he may sign for much less... I hope he does.

Last edited 12/22/2012 1:13 PM by nbr1hawkeye

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Posted: 12/22/2012 2:05 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


I've never quite understood why people want to sign guys who've never played professional ball.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:02 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



Jmodene1 wrote: I've never quite understood why people want to sign guys who've never played professional ball.
Isn't that what happens in the draft every June? I have never understood why people make blanket generalizations.  ;-)

I don't know enough about Diaz to know whether he would be a good sign or not, but I bet the Cards wish they had Cespedes and Aroldis. Many others, they are probably very glad they stayed away from.

We can only hope they do their scouting diligence and make their best call.
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
Follow both Brian and TCN on Twitter

Last edited 12/22/2012 7:03 AM by Domeboys

Posted: 12/22/2012 9:53 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


As crazy as it sounds, signing guys with no American professional experience is a more sound investment, especially for a team in a smaller market.

Contracts for proven players are through the roof and provide little long-term security. Stephen Drew has had a negative WAR rating the previous two seasons and he landed a $9.5 million deal and it's a prove-it contract. If he shows he can still play he's gone for more money next year. If he doesn't, then it's a waste of money. No. 3 starters are pulling in $11-13 million a year over three years. Those kind of figures can be handled by teams with major television deals, but for the other two-thirds of the league those deals mean a significant gamble.

Now, on the flip side the Reds landed an electric arm in Chapman for five-years/$30.25 and the A's have Cespedes for 4 years/$36 millions. Those contracts look great and both guys provided almost immediate returns. Granted both could have flames out like other Cubans have done in the past, but swallowing a loss in a boom or bust attempt makes more sense then throwing a ton of a money at a guy with, to steal a draft term, high floor and low ceiling.

Signing unproven guys with more potential for less money is a better risk for most teams. And in the Cardinals case, they have enough money to cover a miss on a lighter contract and they have a system in place right now that can allow for a player to develop.

As Brian stated above, signing a guy like Diaz is really no different then signing a draftee, which is the route the Cardinals want to take. In this case, only difference is less scouting on the player.

Last edited 12/22/2012 11:37 AM by KylMss

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Posted: 12/22/2012 11:17 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



Jmodene1 wrote: I've never quite understood why people want to sign guys who've never played professional ball.
I wanted to sign Cespedes last year too. 

9 Mil a year sure looks like a bargain right now.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 12:41 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


alexei ramirez's first contract was 4yrs 4.4mil total 

and i remember him being much more heralded than Diaz. (also i dont understand why we didnt go in for him then...yo ucant tell me that contract or a little better woudl  have broke the bank)

he was a little older (3yrs), but i havent heard much to anything mainstream about Diaz...I cant imagine getting a contract anywhere close to Cespedes...but probably a bit higher than Ramirez (though im not sure)

i woudl love to have had Alexei, Chapman and Cespedes right now

sure all three of those guys were heralded, but who (in recent memory) from cuba has flamed out with a "huge" contract? 

Every time a heralded Cuban comes onto the scene everyone has the same argument against them....yet the biggest ones to come out recently havent disappointed

my worry with Diaz is that he may not be as highly heralded...in which that worries me if we had to give a big contract...btu that he isnt as heralded makes me believe he wont demand a huge contract...and in that case i woudl still be interested

Last edited 12/22/2012 12:42 PM by thejager

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