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RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012

Posted: 10/31/2012 10:40 PM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



blingboy wrote: It has been a long time since Kozma has played only a couple times a week. I wonder if he can do that.
2 starts a week at ss, and possibly 1 or 2 starts at 2nd if he hits respectably.  His lifetime obp of 0.342 would be respectable for me.
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Posted: 11/1/2012 7:23 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



DMENS wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
DMENS wrote:
PadsFS wrote:
I'm okay with having one bad bat in the lineup (other than the pitcher) if they play great defense.  Andrus isn't even bad offensively though.
Time to bring back Brendan Ryan?
bangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbanghead
That was a joke, BTW.
Thank God. Where you around for the great Brendan Ryan debate Dmens? He is a great case for why defensive metrics mean squat, zero, zilch. The guy should really go to night school or something. Not many players are traded due to team mates not wanting to play with them. Sadly he still has is backers here. Maybe we could bring Flip back too as a reserve.

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 11/1/2012 8:23 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


I am always amused when people want to trade our disposable players (Salas, McClellan, whoever) for good players.  That's not how it works.

The Rangers would certainly ask for Miller and/or Rosenthal for Andrus.  We could counter with Lynn and a lesser prospect, and the Rangers (who, as noted, have Profar standing by to take over at SS) might well bite on that.

Posted: 11/1/2012 8:32 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
DMENS wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
DMENS wrote:
PadsFS wrote:
I'm okay with having one bad bat in the lineup (other than the pitcher) if they play great defense.  Andrus isn't even bad offensively though.
Time to bring back Brendan Ryan?
bangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbanghead
That was a joke, BTW.
Thank God. Where you around for the great Brendan Ryan debate Dmens? He is a great case for why defensive metrics mean squat, zero, zilch. The guy should really go to night school or something. Not many players are traded due to team mates not wanting to play with them. Sadly he still has is backers here. Maybe we could bring Flip back too as a reserve.
I don't care one bit what the defensive metrics say.  Brendan Ryan was by far the best defensive shortstop I've seen play regularly since Ozzie Smith. 

Plus I would love to rehash your accusation about teammates not wanting to play with him. 

Just because the people are gone that called you out on that are gone, doesn't make you retroactively right on the subject.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports...82e9ada916.html


Franklin claimed that Ryan lost the respect of some of his teammates last year by repeatedly arriving late. "If you're tardy once, don't be tardy again," Franklin said. "But it just kept happening. Veteran guys, we see a two-or-three-year guy do that, that doesn't sit well, it just doesn't. That's not the way it's supposed to be done."

Posted: 11/1/2012 8:36 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



MagnoliaCardFan wrote:
PadsFS wrote:
MagnoliaCardFan wrote: I'm not ready to look for a seat on the Andrus bandwagon, yet. 

His stats, according to bball-ref.com aren't exceptional, IMO, noting that his best year (this season) he had a 91 OPS+ and average range as an MLB SS.  While he'd still be under control for 2 more years, he's no longer cheap.  What makes him worth considering an MLB-ready, top-of-the-rotation starter, who still have multiple years before being arb-eligible, in trade?

Show/Convince me.

Average range?  Where do you see that? (Baseball-reference.com, under the fielding stats)

.... 

I'm okay with having one bad bat in the lineup (other than the pitcher) if they play great defense.  Andrus isn't even bad offensively though.
Andrus' salary by itself isn't a big deal (even cheap except when compared to Koz's or Jackson's); but what would he cost in prospect(s)--supposedly Texas wants pitching (NOT RH relievers)--and what would happen to Furcal if we were to acquire him?  Koz has given us no reason to discontinue his trial.  Is Andrus worth TRose or Miller and their cheap years?


Furcal to 2B and backup SS.  Kozma trial should end as he will undoubtedly not live up to these expectations you all have for him.  He is not even that good defensively clearly (NLCS).

Andrus is not worth Rosenthal or Miller, but that isn't the type of pitching I am talking about. I think Craig and Lynn would get it done easily. We also have Adams, Martinez, Kelly, etc.

Furcal could be packaged to Texas as well as Profar insurance and perhaps we could take back Michael Young as insurance for Kolten Wong.

Acquiring Andrus is just an idea. I think the clubs match up.

Posted: 11/1/2012 8:58 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
Thank God. Where you around for the great Brendan Ryan debate Dmens? He is a great case for why defensive metrics mean squat, zero, zilch. The guy should really go to night school or something. Not many players are traded due to team mates not wanting to play with them. Sadly he still has is backers here. Maybe we could bring Flip back too as a reserve.

Sadly, some people still don't understand just how good he was, defensively.  The reason he is gone has NOTHING to do with his defensive skills.

Posted: 11/1/2012 9:28 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



forsch31 wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
Thank God. Where you around for the great Brendan Ryan debate Dmens? He is a great case for why defensive metrics mean squat, zero, zilch. The guy should really go to night school or something. Not many players are traded due to team mates not wanting to play with them. Sadly he still has is backers here. Maybe we could bring Flip back too as a reserve.

Sadly, some people still don't understand just how good he was, defensively.  The reason he is gone has NOTHING to do with his defensive skills.
FWIW I do not have a good grasp on advanced defensive metrics so I typically remain silent on these sort of discussions. I'm not well versed enough in these metrics to use them as a tool for differentiating the defensive quality between Ryan and Andrus. I do find it unfortunate that here we are needing a defensively sound SS with a serviceable bat and Ryan is no longer in a Cardinals uniform because of chemistry issues.

Posted: 11/1/2012 9:41 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
DMENS wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
DMENS wrote:
PadsFS wrote:
I'm okay with having one bad bat in the lineup (other than the pitcher) if they play great defense.  Andrus isn't even bad offensively though.
Time to bring back Brendan Ryan?
bangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbanghead
That was a joke, BTW.
Thank God. Where you around for the great Brendan Ryan debate Dmens? He is a great case for why defensive metrics mean squat, zero, zilch. The guy should really go to night school or something. Not many players are traded due to team mates not wanting to play with them. Sadly he still has is backers here. Maybe we could bring Flip back too as a reserve.
Not sure what you mean by that, he was every bit as good if not better than any defensive metrics said he was.  He was a god defensive shortstop and that is all there is to it.  To say otherwise is just silly at best.
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Posted: 11/1/2012 10:00 AM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


while our need and the rangers need match up, i still say pass due to it will cost more than what andrus is worth to get him due to the cost will be insanely high because: 1) they can keep him and move kinsler to OF and (not or) 2) other teams have a need for a shortstop too which will drive the cost up further 3) one of those teams with a need is arizona who has a good farm system too.

if he could cost lynn/kelly and maybe a 2nd tier prospect or a deal in that ballpark, maybe. but due to what i mentioned above, he'll cost alot more than that. and then he'd only be here for 2 yrs. he might be good, but you dont trade potential top of the rotation guys like miller, rosenthal or martinez for 2 yrs of him. and trade talks will include miller, rosenthal, martinez or tavaras.
---
Need help with Community Prospect voting? Click here to find links for stats & draft positions for everyone in the Cardinal minor league system: Minor League Affiliates | cardinals.com: Minors

Posted: 11/1/2012 10:04 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



TCRedbird wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
DMENS wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
DMENS wrote:
PadsFS wrote:
I'm okay with having one bad bat in the lineup (other than the pitcher) if they play great defense.  Andrus isn't even bad offensively though.
Time to bring back Brendan Ryan?
bangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbanghead
That was a joke, BTW.
Thank God. Where you around for the great Brendan Ryan debate Dmens? He is a great case for why defensive metrics mean squat, zero, zilch. The guy should really go to night school or something. Not many players are traded due to team mates not wanting to play with them. Sadly he still has is backers here. Maybe we could bring Flip back too as a reserve.
Not sure what you mean by that, he was every bit as good if not better than any defensive metrics said he was.  He was a god defensive shortstop and that is all there is to it.  To say otherwise is just silly at best.
Completely agree.  Holliday would be a great case for that perhaps or Derek Jeter...not the best defender in the game.

Posted: 11/1/2012 10:05 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



DMENS wrote:
forsch31 wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
Thank God. Where you around for the great Brendan Ryan debate Dmens? He is a great case for why defensive metrics mean squat, zero, zilch. The guy should really go to night school or something. Not many players are traded due to team mates not wanting to play with them. Sadly he still has is backers here. Maybe we could bring Flip back too as a reserve.

Sadly, some people still don't understand just how good he was, defensively.  The reason he is gone has NOTHING to do with his defensive skills.
FWIW I do not have a good grasp on advanced defensive metrics so I typically remain silent on these sort of discussions. I'm not well versed enough in these metrics to use them as a tool for differentiating the defensive quality between Ryan and Andrus. I do find it unfortunate that here we are needing a defensively sound SS with a serviceable bat and Ryan is no longer in a Cardinals uniform because of chemistry issues.

I am a firm believer that there are too many problems with most of the defensive metrics.  While they can be a help, they are also not to be the only way of determining the defensive value of a player.

Defense takes in positioning, reaction time, quickness, glovework and arm.  How do you use a metric to do all that?

Posted: 11/1/2012 10:12 AM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



cardzZilla wrote: while our need and the rangers need match up, i still say pass due to it will cost more than what andrus is worth to get him due to the cost will be insanely high because: 1) they can keep him and move kinsler to OF and (not or) 2) other teams have a need for a shortstop too which will drive the cost up further 3) one of those teams with a need is arizona who has a good farm system too.

if he could cost lynn/kelly and maybe a 2nd tier prospect or a deal in that ballpark, maybe. but due to what i mentioned above, he'll cost alot more than that. and then he'd only be here for 2 yrs. he might be good, but you dont trade potential top of the rotation guys like miller, rosenthal or martinez for 2 yrs of him. and trade talks will include miller, rosenthal, martinez or tavaras.

Moving Profar to 2B extremely degrades his skills as he is an above average SS defensively also.

Secondly, so is Kinsler at 2B, so moving him to the outfield ruins his value. Not too mention, Kinsler has been there longer, has always played the infield and is really a good bat for 2B.
 
Third, they have good outfielders: Murphy, Cruz, and Martin are all just as highly thought of in comparison to Kinsler's bat.

Finally, I don't think it will cost that much. One of Adams/Craig and one of Lynn/Kelly is an adequate price to pay for Andrus.  We have leverage too.  We have Furcal still so it isn't like we have to sell the farm.

Posted: 11/1/2012 10:26 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



PadsFS wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
DMENS wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
DMENS wrote:
PadsFS wrote:
I'm okay with having one bad bat...
Time to bring back Brendan Ryan?
bangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbanghead
That was a joke, BTW.
Thank God. Where you around for the great Brendan Ryan debate Dmens? He is a great case for why defensive metrics mean squat, zero, zilch...
I don't care one bit what the defensive metrics say.  Brendan Ryan was by far the best defensive shortstop I've seen play regularly since Ozzie Smith. 

Plus I would love to rehash your accusation about teammates not wanting to play with him. 

Just because the people are gone that called you out on that are gone, doesn't make you retroactively right on the subject.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports...82e9ada916.html


...
I don't think saying CNH was denying Ryan's defensive prowess.  It was BR's net effect on the team, mostly outside of the lines that's his (CNH's) point.  I get the impression he craved acceptance from his team mates and didn't get the dossages his self esteem required.  So he tried harder, albeit, in a tardy fashion.  I don't think he realized, or had learned, some of the mundane points to acceptably function inside the clubhouse.  And it wouldn't surprise me if that were a tipping factor affecting his concentration in the batters box, contributing to the decline of his BA.

BTW--thanks for the article as I'd not seen it.  I always thought Ryan was a good read as his comments seemed to, ....sincerely (for lack of a more appropriate adverb) address the questions asked.
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Posted: 11/1/2012 10:35 AM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


in a deal for andrus, they are the team with all the leverage. and i agree, it in their best interest for a better defense to trade one of their shortstops. but they *will* drive the price up over the ability to just keep all three. and you are forgetting the other teams. if we were the only team, then maybe a deal like adams+kelly/lynn could happen. but we aren't which will lead them to ask for one of a team's top 5 prospects and they are in position to hold out for that as long as they want.
---
Need help with Community Prospect voting? Click here to find links for stats & draft positions for everyone in the Cardinal minor league system: Minor League Affiliates | cardinals.com: Minors

Posted: 11/1/2012 10:48 AM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



cardzZilla wrote: in a deal for andrus, they are the team with all the leverage. and i agree, it in their best interest for a better defense to trade one of their shortstops. but they *will* drive the price up over the ability to just keep all three. and you are forgetting the other teams. if we were the only team, then maybe a deal like adams+kelly/lynn could happen. but we aren't which will lead them to ask for one of a team's top 5 prospects and they are in position to hold out for that as long as they want.
You are right they can hold out if they don't want to make their team any better, cause putting one of those 2 very good SS at 2b to move Kinsler to the OF makes the 2B and Kinsler have less value...

Posted: 11/1/2012 11:15 AM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



cardzZilla wrote: in a deal for andrus, they are the team with all the leverage. and i agree, it in their best interest for a better defense to trade one of their shortstops. but they *will* drive the price up over the ability to just keep all three. and you are forgetting the other teams. if we were the only team, then maybe a deal like adams+kelly/lynn could happen. but we aren't which will lead them to ask for one of a team's top 5 prospects and they are in position to hold out for that as long as they want.
Here's an analytical piece by Ellwood regarding the Rangers dilemma and he mentions David Price as being a possible trade target motivated by a win-now mentality.  If true, that would lend credence to Texas holding the greater leverage in trade talks.  But if $$ are an issue--say they extend Hamilton--then our leverage improves.  I'd think they'd be more interested in (1) trading Young, or if not him, then (2) Kinsler.

Posted: 11/1/2012 12:39 PM

RE: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



MagnoliaCardFan wrote:
cardzZilla wrote: in a deal for andrus, they are the team with all the leverage. and i agree, it in their best interest for a better defense to trade one of their shortstops. but they *will* drive the price up over the ability to just keep all three. and you are forgetting the other teams. if we were the only team, then maybe a deal like adams+kelly/lynn could happen. but we aren't which will lead them to ask for one of a team's top 5 prospects and they are in position to hold out for that as long as they want.
Here's an analytical piece by Ellwood regarding the Rangers dilemma and he mentions David Price as being a possible trade target motivated by a win-now mentality.  If true, that would lend credence to Texas holding the greater leverage in trade talks.  But if $$ are an issue--say they extend Hamilton--then our leverage improves.  I'd think they'd be more interested in (1) trading Young, or if not him, then (2) Kinsler.

Of course, they have the most leverage.

We have some leverage with regard to our own situation though in that we don't have to trade the farm for him.  If someone else is willing, then let them. But the Rangers leverage doesn't come from moving their MI's around the diamond as was suggested.

Last edited 11/1/2012 12:39 PM by PadsFS

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Posted: 11/1/2012 2:05 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



MagnoliaCardFan wrote:
PadsFS wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
DMENS wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
DMENS wrote:
PadsFS wrote:
I'm okay with having one bad bat...
Time to bring back Brendan Ryan?
bangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbanghead
That was a joke, BTW.
Thank God. Where you around for the great Brendan Ryan debate Dmens? He is a great case for why defensive metrics mean squat, zero, zilch...
I don't care one bit what the defensive metrics say.  Brendan Ryan was by far the best defensive shortstop I've seen play regularly since Ozzie Smith. 

Plus I would love to rehash your accusation about teammates not wanting to play with him. 

Just because the people are gone that called you out on that are gone, doesn't make you retroactively right on the subject.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports...82e9ada916.html


...
I don't think saying CNH was denying Ryan's defensive prowess.  It was BR's net effect on the team, mostly outside of the lines that's his (CNH's) point.  I get the impression he craved acceptance from his team mates and didn't get the dossages his self esteem required.  So he tried harder, albeit, in a tardy fashion.  I don't think he realized, or had learned, some of the mundane points to acceptably function inside the clubhouse.  And it wouldn't surprise me if that were a tipping factor affecting his concentration in the batters box, contributing to the decline of his BA.

BTW--thanks for the article as I'd not seen it.  I always thought Ryan was a good read as his comments seemed to, ....sincerely (for lack of a more appropriate adverb) address the questions asked.
Right you are Jerry. My fault for not being clear enough though. I actually liked Ryan on a personal level and have said so many times. Some here chose not to accept that though. I thought he was a fantastic SS but i would stop short of saying he was the best since Ozzie. Maybe what was meant is he was the best Cardinal since Smith. His range is second to none but he does make some throwing errors, a fact lost on many that want to anoint him a GG. Problem is he cannot hit a lick and has a terrible BB IQ. He was a poor base runner and failed to move runners over most of the time. We could have lived with that but some of his team mates wanted him gone. That point was never argued until today as far as i know. Dmens actually was joking when he posted it anyhow. Never going to happen. Fielding metrics or no.

GO CARDS!

Posted: 11/1/2012 4:16 PM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:

Right you are Jerry. My fault for not being clear enough though. I actually liked Ryan on a personal level and have said so many times. Some here chose not to accept that though. I thought he was a fantastic SS but i would stop short of saying he was the best since Ozzie. Maybe what was meant is he was the best Cardinal since Smith. His range is second to none but he does make some throwing errors, a fact lost on many that want to anoint him a GG. Problem is he cannot hit a lick and has a terrible BB IQ. He was a poor base runner and failed to move runners over most of the time. We could have lived with that but some of his team mates wanted him gone. That point was never argued until today as far as i know. Dmens actually was joking when he posted it anyhow. Never going to happen. Fielding metrics or no.

This whole line of discussion regarding Ryan started with Pads' statement that we could stand to have a weak bat in the lineup with great defense.  Ryan would fit that description.  No one has tried to make a case that Ryan is good offensively.

All that said, there is very little chance he will be back on the Cardinals.  I would welcome him at the expense of Furcal.
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Posted: 11/2/2012 6:57 AM

Re: Trade Ideas/Acquisition Ideas/Non-Cards Rumors - 2012 


You all are still looking at trades strictly on the talent-for-talent basis.  Salaries have an effect, too - and a Lynn-for-Andrus trade would be a trade involving a starting pitcher making $500K for a shortstop making $6MM+.
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