Miller

CariocaCardinal wrote:

rchiii wrote:

easton714 wrote: I hear he has the best parties.

Can't be the "best" if I'm not invited!......

I will say the fuss about him avoiding his secondary pitches does concern me.  It wasn't that they asked him, it was that they had to ask him repeatedly before they finally felt they had to get nasty.

Then there was his "sweaty palms" problem......

I, for one, will not be surprised if Miller is not the consensus #1 next year.

Maybe he will be even a better prospect because of his off field issues.

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110907/SPORTS 02/109070383/Learning-curve-unlimited-Springfield- Cardinals-Shelby-Miller?odyssey=mod

That link isn't working, CC.

sport61201 wrote:

CariocaCardinal wrote:

rchiii wrote:

easton714 wrote: I hear he has the best parties.

Can't be the "best" if I'm not invited!......

I will say the fuss about him avoiding his secondary pitches does concern me.  It wasn't that they asked him, it was that they had to ask him repeatedly before they finally felt they had to get nasty.

Then there was his "sweaty palms" problem......

I, for one, will not be surprised if Miller is not the consensus #1 next year.

Maybe he will be even a better prospect because of his off field issues.

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110907/SPORTS 02/109070383/Learning-curve-unlimited-Springfield- Cardinals-Shelby-Miller?odyssey=mod

That link isn't working, CC.

Try this one:

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110907/SPORTS 02/109070383/1044/sports02/Learning-curve-unlimite d-Springfield-Cardinals-Shelby-Miller

Hmmmmm..that doesn't work either - both links are cuts and pastes from the actual page address.  All I can say is go to the Springfield News Leader site and click on the Sports link.  Under Cardinal news there is a story about Shelby 9and the link works).

sport61201 wrote:

CariocaCardinal wrote:

rchiii wrote:

easton714 wrote: I hear he has the best parties.

Can't be the "best" if I'm not invited!......

I will say the fuss about him avoiding his secondary pitches does concern me.  It wasn't that they asked him, it was that they had to ask him repeatedly before they finally felt they had to get nasty.

Then there was his "sweaty palms" problem......

I, for one, will not be surprised if Miller is not the consensus #1 next year.

Maybe he will be even a better prospect because of his off field issues.

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110907/SPORTS 02/109070383/Learning-curve-unlimited-Springfield- Cardinals-Shelby-Miller?odyssey=mod

That link isn't working, CC.

I just went to news-leader.com and searched Shelby Miller.

Good article.  It was kind of interesting, the issue with his Change is the same one Rosenthal has - needs to slow it down more.  But there wasn't anything there that changes what I said was a concern other than he pitched a great ending game and finally started pitching 30% offspeed as requested.  The question is did he maximize this year in terms of development - the coaches have clearly said no (or the fuss wouldn't have happened).  It doesn't mean he isn't the clear #1.

Miller is one of the top 5-10 prospects in baseball...but I'll cast my vote for Oscar Taveras.

Jason Parks at Baseball Prospectus just declared today that O.T. has the best "hit tool" in all the minors, and I'm inclined to agree.

Add to that Taveras' above-average power to all fields, his solid control of the strikezone (elite over the season's second half), and the possibility of his playing CF in the majors, and we're talking about one of the top 5 position prospects in baseball (Trout, Profar, Machado, Harper).

I'd put Oscar above everyone but Trout, actually.

sport61201 wrote:

CariocaCardinal wrote:

rchiii wrote:

easton714 wrote: I hear he has the best parties.

Can't be the "best" if I'm not invited!......

I will say the fuss about him avoiding his secondary pitches does concern me.  It wasn't that they asked him, it was that they had to ask him repeatedly before they finally felt they had to get nasty.

Then there was his "sweaty palms" problem......

I, for one, will not be surprised if Miller is not the consensus #1 next year.

Maybe he will be even a better prospect because of his off field issues.

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110907/SPORTS 02/109070383/Learning-curve-unlimited-Springfield- Cardinals-Shelby-Miller?odyssey=mod

That link isn't working, CC.

Try this link.

BobReed wrote: Miller is one of the top 5-10 prospects in baseball...but I'll cast my vote for Oscar Taveras.

Jason Parks at Baseball Prospectus just declared today that O.T. has the best "hit tool" in all the minors, and I'm inclined to agree.

Add to that Taveras' above-average power to all fields, his solid control of the strikezone (elite over the season's second half), and the possibility of his playing CF in the majors, and we're talking about one of the top 5 position prospects in baseball (Trout, Profar, Machado, Harper).

I'd put Oscar above everyone but Trout, actually.

I knew this was coming but you really think Taveras is a better prospect than his organization-mate, the consensus top 5-10 in all of baseball, who showed dominance in AA at age 20 and has no injury history?

Why?

If other teams see him as highly as you do, I really hope we trade him.  And I am totally serious.  If even one team thinks he is a top 5 prospect in all of baseball, we need to jump on it.

But I don't think Texas would be all that interested in swapping Taveras for Profar.  And Harper is appreciably better at nearly every facet of the game with the possible exception of batting average....and he's both younger than Taveras (and, yes, Harper is younger than Taveras)...and in AA.

Might as well start the discussion now.

easton714 wrote:

BobReed wrote: Miller is one of the top 5-10 prospects in baseball...but I'll cast my vote for Oscar Taveras.

Jason Parks at Baseball Prospectus just declared today that O.T. has the best "hit tool" in all the minors, and I'm inclined to agree.

Add to that Taveras' above-average power to all fields, his solid control of the strikezone (elite over the season's second half), and the possibility of his playing CF in the majors, and we're talking about one of the top 5 position prospects in baseball (Trout, Profar, Machado, Harper).

I'd put Oscar above everyone but Trout, actually.

I knew this was coming but you really think Taveras is a better prospect than his organization-mate, the consensus top 5-10 in all of baseball, who showed dominance in AA at age 20 and has no injury history?

Why?

If other teams see him as highly as you do, I really hope we trade him.  And I am totally serious.  If even one team thinks he is a top 5 prospect in all of baseball, we need to jump on it.

But I don't think Texas would be all that interested in swapping Taveras for Profar.  And Harper is appreciably better at nearly every facet of the game with the possible exception of batting average....and he's both younger than Taveras (and, yes, Harper is younger than Taveras)...and in AA.

Might as well start the discussion now.

I have to admit, I was tempted to put OT in the #1 slot, but for the reasons you cite, I still have to rank him behind Miller.  Once OT gets to AA and does what I believe he will, then I think you may be looking at a top 10 prospect of MiLB, but he has to get there first.  I also don't regard his hammy problem as an "injury prone" issue - hopefully he learned to stretch!!

Shelby Miller for me too!  I do think the depth of the orginazation (over the last year or so) has improved in the 2 thru 10 or so range, more guys that could be impact big leaguers with Oscar Taveras and Carlos Martinez leading that list.  Those are two guys that in addition to Miller could be stars, not just MLB contributors.

BobReed wrote: Miller is one of the top 5-10 prospects in baseball...but I'll cast my vote for Oscar Taveras.

Jason Parks at Baseball Prospectus just declared today that O.T. has the best "hit tool" in all the minors, and I'm inclined to agree.

Add to that Taveras' above-average power to all fields, his solid control of the strikezone (elite over the season's second half), and the possibility of his playing CF in the majors, and we're talking about one of the top 5 position prospects in baseball (Trout, Profar, Machado, Harper).

I'd put Oscar above everyone but Trout, actually.

1.  all that stuff you want to "add" would seemingly be included in the analysis of his hit tool wouldn't it?

2.  If he truly has the best hit tool and baseball (and since he's not a 1B )  if his defense isn't a flaw he would seemingly be at a minimum top 10-20 overall.    I don't know who Jason Parks is or if his opinion is shared by others but if he's right, then Bob could also be right!

3. How long until TLR is gone?

Someone from BP giving this recognition to OT is great.   It will be much harder for other publications to overlook him now.

I actually have Taveras fourth at the moment.  Although I may move him to 3rd.

If he were a centerfielder (like a real one - the kind who plays center already and there aren't whispers of him being destined for a corner), he would be #2.  But he isn't a centerfielder.  And he isn't fast.  And he doesn't have a great arm.  And there are already whispers that he isn't even that good at a corner.

Also, I don't know that Parks guy either but there is a mammoth disparity between his future power grade range of 40-60.  One is unacceptable for anything but a plus defensive centerfielder.

CariocaCardinal wrote: Someone from BP giving this recognition to OT is great.   It will be much harder for other publications to overlook him now.

Maybe that'll up his trade value.

As much as I think Martinez and Taveras have more upside than Miller. I'm going with Shelby Miller as our Top Prospect. Martinez has better stuff but Miller has a better chance at sticking as a starter. Also he has had more success at a higher level than Martinez. Having seen Taveras at his best (first 4 guys before he got injured) I know how good he can be but Miller is still my top prospect. He may be overtaken by next year but at this point.

1. Shelby Miller

easton714 wrote: I actually have Taveras fourth at the moment.  Although I may move him to 3rd.

If he were a centerfielder (like a real one - the kind who plays center already and there aren't whispers of him being destined for a corner), he would be #2.  But he isn't a centerfielder.  And he isn't fast.  And he doesn't have a great arm.  And there are already whispers that he isn't even that good at a corner.

Also, I don't know that Parks guy either but there is a mammoth disparity between his future power grade range of 40-60.  One is unacceptable for anything but a plus defensive centerfielder.

Something worth noting. He still seems to be recovering from his hammy injury.  He didn't have the acceleration he had at the beginning of the year when he really tried to run.  Also being only 19 he has plenty of time to work on getting good jumps in the OF and taking correct routes.  I have complete confidence that after the team works on his routes and jumps in the OF they will more him to CF.  I really believe he can play that position on a MLB level at least adequately.

scadder21 wrote:

easton714 wrote: I actually have Taveras fourth at the moment.  Although I may move him to 3rd.

If he were a centerfielder (like a real one - the kind who plays center already and there aren't whispers of him being destined for a corner), he would be #2.  But he isn't a centerfielder.  And he isn't fast.  And he doesn't have a great arm.  And there are already whispers that he isn't even that good at a corner.

Also, I don't know that Parks guy either but there is a mammoth disparity between his future power grade range of 40-60.  One is unacceptable for anything but a plus defensive centerfielder.

Something worth noting. He still seems to be recovering from his hammy injury.  He didn't have the acceleration he had at the beginning of the year when he really tried to run.  Also being only 19 he has plenty of time to work on getting good jumps in the OF and taking correct routes.  I have complete confidence that after the team works on his routes and jumps in the OF they will more him to CF.  I really believe he can play that position on a MLB level at least adequately.

Ok, then....find me an example of a prospect who was moved against the defensive spectrum and ended up a star at the more valuable position.

I can't be the only one to think this would be incredibly unlikely.

EDIT:  scadder, are you trying to argue that his hamstring or his desire to pretect said hamstring is the only reason he grades out at between fringy and average in terms of athletic tools?  And that, once the hammy issue is behind him, that he'll suddely be fast and exceedingly athletic?  What about those who saw him before this year?  Is the hammy affecting his arm too?

easton714 wrote: I actually have Taveras fourth at the moment.  Although I may move him to 3rd.

If he were a centerfielder (like a real one - the kind who plays center already and there aren't whispers of him being destined for a corner), he would be #2.  But he isn't a centerfielder.  And he isn't fast.  And he doesn't have a great arm.  And there are already whispers that he isn't even that good at a corner.

Also, I don't know that Parks guy either but there is a mammoth disparity between his future power grade range of 40-60.  One is unacceptable for anything but a plus defensive centerfielder.

Not sure if I agree with that last paragraphy.  What was Tony Gwynn's power grade?  Not saying Taveras will be Gwynn but he seems like a PURE hitting machine in a way where it may not matter if he doesn't hit a ton of home runs.

easton714 wrote: Ok, then....find me an example of a prospect who was moved against the defensive spectrum and ended up a star at the more valuable position.

I can't be the only one to think this would be incredibly unlikely.

Cal Ripken moved from third base to shortstop and did just fine, but your point is valid. It's a very rare occurrence.

easton714 wrote:

scadder21 wrote:

easton714 wrote: I actually have Taveras fourth at the moment.  Although I may move him to 3rd.

If he were a centerfielder (like a real one - the kind who plays center already and there aren't whispers of him being destined for a corner), he would be #2.  But he isn't a centerfielder.  And he isn't fast.  And he doesn't have a great arm.  And there are already whispers that he isn't even that good at a corner.

Also, I don't know that Parks guy either but there is a mammoth disparity between his future power grade range of 40-60.  One is unacceptable for anything but a plus defensive centerfielder.

Something worth noting. He still seems to be recovering from his hammy injury.  He didn't have the acceleration he had at the beginning of the year when he really tried to run.  Also being only 19 he has plenty of time to work on getting good jumps in the OF and taking correct routes.  I have complete confidence that after the team works on his routes and jumps in the OF they will more him to CF.  I really believe he can play that position on a MLB level at least adequately.

Ok, then....find me an example of a prospect who was moved against the defensive spectrum and ended up a star at the more valuable position.

I can't be the only one to think this would be incredibly unlikely.

I'm not looking for defensive perfection.  Yes Cardinal fans are used to Willie McGee and Jim Edmonds but if you have a player whose offensive profile fits CF better and his D is still adequate to average then it's worthwhile to consider playing them in CF.

I played CF in high school and I feel its an easier defensive position than RF assuming you have the footspeed to cover ground in the OF.

I also believe that Taveras would have started in CF had the team not been so high on Longmire at the beginning of the year as Longmire is more of a "natural" CF.

easton714 wrote:

scadder21 wrote:

easton714 wrote: I actually have Taveras fourth at the moment.  Although I may move him to 3rd.

If he were a centerfielder (like a real one - the kind who plays center already and there aren't whispers of him being destined for a corner), he would be #2.  But he isn't a centerfielder.  And he isn't fast.  And he doesn't have a great arm.  And there are already whispers that he isn't even that good at a corner.

Also, I don't know that Parks guy either but there is a mammoth disparity between his future power grade range of 40-60.  One is unacceptable for anything but a plus defensive centerfielder.

Something worth noting. He still seems to be recovering from his hammy injury.  He didn't have the acceleration he had at the beginning of the year when he really tried to run.  Also being only 19 he has plenty of time to work on getting good jumps in the OF and taking correct routes.  I have complete confidence that after the team works on his routes and jumps in the OF they will more him to CF.  I really believe he can play that position on a MLB level at least adequately.

Ok, then....find me an example of a prospect who was moved against the defensive spectrum and ended up a star at the more valuable position.

I can't be the only one to think this would be incredibly unlikely.

EDIT:  scadder, are you trying to argue that his hamstring or his desire to pretect said hamstring is the only reason he grades out at between fringy and average in terms of athletic tools?  And that, once the hammy issue is behind him, that he'll suddely be fast and exceedingly athletic?  What about those who saw him before this year?  Is the hammy affecting his arm too?

No what I'm saying is that he is more athletic than you or those you are quoting give him credit for.  He has good speed but he hasn't shown it as much since the injury and his arm is just average but he can put something extra on it when needs be to throw someone out.  The athletic tool is underrated probably because people assume he will fill out and lose some speed.