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Jon Jay has earned the CF spot

Posted: 6/18/2014 9:27 AM

Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 


IMO, Jay needs to be our every day center fielder.  He's a proven big league hitter with a career BA near .300.  This assumes we won't be making any blockbuster trades, nor will we likely see Taveras in center for the big club.  As for Jay's defense, I'm confident he'll be plenty adequate.  I'm reminded of a Whitey Herzog interview I heard back in the '80s, when asked about Vince Coleman's defense.  His answer:  "He's good enough."  The Bourjos experiment, although it has failed, was worth a shot I guess.  But he's simply not a big league hitter.  In truth, I have to wonder if he could crack the Memphis starting outfield.
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  • MAP315
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Posted: 6/18/2014 9:46 AM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 


I see them both as equally valuable but that's because I value defense equally to offense. Bourjos defense is far superior to Jay's.....and Jay's offense is way superior to Bourjos. Their WAR right now is the exact same. I think they should both keep playing dictated by the better matchups. Jay has been a spark sorely needed for this offense. Bourjos is needed when you have Craig and Holliday flanking him. So mix and match Craig, Adams, Holliday, Jay, and Bourjos and that will work until/when someone gets traded or when Taveras comes back up. Jay's "best" defensive position is left....Bourjos best offensive skill is probably a trip to triple A to work on his swing for a couple weeks. But you cannot underestimate the value of a good defensive CF.
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Posted: 6/18/2014 9:46 AM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 


Bourjos got a single in the 6th and a walk in the 8th yesterday. That looks good to me too over 5 plate appearances. Not sure why you picked today to declare a "winner".

Why not let the season play out? Jay is in the midst of his patented hot streaks so he should definitely play as much as possible at the moment.

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Posted: 6/18/2014 9:55 AM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



PadsFS wrote:

... 

Why not let the season play out? ...

We have other OF'ers in need of AB's at this level.
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Posted: 6/18/2014 10:18 AM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



MAP315 wrote: I see them both as equally valuable but that's because I value defense equally to offense. Bourjos defense is far superior to Jay's.....and Jay's offense is way superior to Bourjos. Their WAR right now is the exact same. I think they should both keep playing dictated by the better matchups. Jay has been a spark sorely needed for this offense. Bourjos is needed when you have Craig and Holliday flanking him. So mix and match Craig, Adams, Holliday, Jay, and Bourjos and that will work until/when someone gets traded or when Taveras comes back up. Jay's "best" defensive position is left....Bourjos best offensive skill is probably a trip to triple A to work on his swing for a couple weeks. But you cannot underestimate the value of a good defensive CF.
I agree 100%. The ideal center-fielder would be a hybrid of Jay (offense) and Bourjos (speed and defense), taking each of their best skills. Then you would have Curt Flood. As it is, Matheny will need to use them in times where their particular skills can be used best.
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Posted: 6/18/2014 10:45 AM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



MAP315 wrote: I see them both as equally valuable but that's because I value defense equally to offense. Bourjos defense is far superior to Jay's.....and Jay's offense is way superior to Bourjos. Their WAR right now is the exact same. I think they should both keep playing dictated by the better matchups. Jay has been a spark sorely needed for this offense. Bourjos is needed when you have Craig and Holliday flanking him. So mix and match Craig, Adams, Holliday, Jay, and Bourjos and that will work until/when someone gets traded or when Taveras comes back up. Jay's "best" defensive position is left....Bourjos best offensive skill is probably a trip to triple A to work on his swing for a couple weeks. But you cannot underestimate the value of a good defensive CF.
As an old fan of Gene Rayburn, THIS is the definitive answer. wink
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Posted: 6/18/2014 10:49 AM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 


I might agree if Bourjos' defense was dramatically better than Jay's, as some posters seem to be saying (or at least implying).  I'm afraid I just don't see it that way.   In my opinion, the gap between the two defensively is not significant.  And I have to repeat: I don't want a center fielder who is overmatched by big league pitching.  Someone suggested sending Peter to Memphis for a couple weeks to work on his hitting at that level.  I suppose that suggestion has some merit.

Jay's defense?  As Whitey said of Coleman, "It's good enough."
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Posted: 6/18/2014 11:23 AM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



Brosky wrote: I might agree if Bourjos' defense was dramatically better than Jay's, as some posters seem to be saying (or at least implying).  I'm afraid I just don't see it that way.   In my opinion, the gap between the two defensively is not significant.  And I have to repeat: I don't want a center fielder who is overmatched by big league pitching.  Someone suggested sending Peter to Memphis for a couple weeks to work on his hitting at that level.  I suppose that suggestion has some merit.

Jay's defense?  As Whitey said of Coleman, "It's good enough."
He is dramatically better than Jay.....an the stats are there to bear it out. In fact Bourjos defensive edge is a little wider than Jay's offensive edge. Jay's is not good enough to be in CF he is marginally better than Holliday in LF.
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  • MAP315
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Posted: 6/18/2014 11:24 AM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



Carter64 wrote:
MAP315 wrote: I see them both as equally valuable but that's because I value defense equally to offense. Bourjos defense is far superior to Jay's.....and Jay's offense is way superior to Bourjos. Their WAR right now is the exact same. I think they should both keep playing dictated by the better matchups. Jay has been a spark sorely needed for this offense. Bourjos is needed when you have Craig and Holliday flanking him. So mix and match Craig, Adams, Holliday, Jay, and Bourjos and that will work until/when someone gets traded or when Taveras comes back up. Jay's "best" defensive position is left....Bourjos best offensive skill is probably a trip to triple A to work on his swing for a couple weeks. But you cannot underestimate the value of a good defensive CF.
As an old fan of Gene Rayburn, THIS is the definitive answer. wink
Thanks. biggrin
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Posted: 6/19/2014 11:45 AM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 


MAP, methinks you are overstating your case.  You say "and the facts prove it" referring, I suppose to some defensive metrics, showing Bourjos to be much better defensively than Jay.  Defensive baseball metrics are in vogue, but many (myself included) find them tenuous at best and irrelevant at worst.  They have all the substance of gossamer.  To be honest with you, I haven't seen anything from Bourjos out there to convince me he's an outstanding defensive CF; I can recall several instances where he got late breaks and/or took bad routes, allowing the ball to reach the wall when it should have been cut off.    

I regard Jay as a good defensive CF, certainly adequate.  And he can hit.  I'm afraid you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  But that's okay; sometimes life is like that.
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Posted: 6/19/2014 11:53 AM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 


Brosky's right. I have been watching PB all year waiting to see something reminiscent of past greats, but nothing so far.
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Posted: 6/19/2014 12:34 PM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



Brosky wrote: MAP, methinks you are overstating your case.  You say "and the facts prove it" referring, I suppose to some defensive metrics, showing Bourjos to be much better defensively than Jay.  Defensive baseball metrics are in vogue, but many (myself included) find them tenuous at best and irrelevant at worst.  They have all the substance of gossamer.  To be honest with you, I haven't seen anything from Bourjos out there to convince me he's an outstanding defensive CF; I can recall several instances where he got late breaks and/or took bad routes, allowing the ball to reach the wall when it should have been cut off.    

I regard Jay as a good defensive CF, certainly adequate.  And he can hit.  I'm afraid you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  But that's okay; sometimes life is like that.

And so we will disagree. But Jay is only adeqaute at LF at center is a bona fide disaster.
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Posted: 6/19/2014 12:42 PM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 


A .300 hitting centerfielder that makes very, very few errors and gets to alot of balls - he is a disaster???

What on earth are we going to do with Oscar?  Somebody has got to go - would it be Oscar and we keep Craig and Adams?

Rat
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Posted: 6/19/2014 12:47 PM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



MAP315 wrote:
Brosky wrote: MAP, methinks you are overstating your case.  You say "and the facts prove it" referring, I suppose to some defensive metrics, showing Bourjos to be much better defensively than Jay.  Defensive baseball metrics are in vogue, but many (myself included) find them tenuous at best and irrelevant at worst.  They have all the substance of gossamer.  To be honest with you, I haven't seen anything from Bourjos out there to convince me he's an outstanding defensive CF; I can recall several instances where he got late breaks and/or took bad routes, allowing the ball to reach the wall when it should have been cut off.    

I regard Jay as a good defensive CF, certainly adequate.  And he can hit.  I'm afraid you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  But that's okay; sometimes life is like that.

And so we will disagree. But Jay is only adeqaute at LF at center is a bona fide disaster.
Jay would be okay defensively in left, but then you'd have a guy without much power at a position where the thought is you don't mind giving up some defense to have power.  Conversely, if Jay is your left fielder because that's his best defensive position, then he needs to be a middle-of-the-order hitter.

I like Jon Jay, but he has his limitations. As I said before, put him and Bourjos' best attributes together and you've got a modern day Curt Flood.  That's why Flood was a starting center fielder on an often-contending team for 10 years. Jay likely won't be a regular for near that long, and we're still waiting to see if Bourjos can turn it around on offense.
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Posted: 6/19/2014 1:01 PM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



RatsBuddy wrote: A .300 hitting centerfielder that makes very, very few errors and gets to alot of balls - he is a disaster???

Rat
He most CERTAINLY was a disaster in the WS. That performance magnified his futility of last season. He was putrid from the moment Beltran cut in front of him and nailed the guy. Robinson, who got some hits and even a HR should have started every game.
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Posted: 6/19/2014 1:28 PM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



RatsBuddy wrote: A .300 hitting centerfielder that makes very, very few errors and gets to alot of balls - he is a disaster???

What on earth are we going to do with Oscar?  Somebody has got to go - would it be Oscar and we keep Craig and Adams?

Rat

I have no clue what the batting avg has to do with his defensive liabilities in center. As far as errors go Craig has no errors at RF give him the gold glove. Gets to a lot of ball?! ...his range is his greatest liability.
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Posted: 6/19/2014 2:30 PM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



MAP315 wrote:
RatsBuddy wrote: A .300 hitting centerfielder that makes very, very few errors and gets to alot of balls - he is a disaster???

What on earth are we going to do with Oscar?  Somebody has got to go - would it be Oscar and we keep Craig and Adams?

Rat

I have no clue what the batting avg has to do with his defensive liabilities in center. As far as errors go Craig has no errors at RF give him the gold glove. Gets to a lot of ball?! ...his range is his greatest liability.
I agree Map and that is actually my point. He is considered by those of us that watch regularly to be a liability in the field. Thing is we have a bunch of those guys. Holliday is even slower and has no arm just like Craig. Peralta has the range of the Musial statue out front and Carpenter is not a lot better plus has a Very weak arm. Ellis and Descalso are just not good either. no one in the outfield can throw a lick. Yet somehow we are the top defensive team in baseball? My point is that the stats can be vey mis leading just as they are with Craig. He is very slow but you have to admit he catches what he gets to, we seem to have a whole roster of those guys with a few exceptions.

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 6/19/2014 2:30 PM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



MAP315 wrote:
RatsBuddy wrote: A .300 hitting centerfielder that makes very, very few errors and gets to alot of balls - he is a disaster???

What on earth are we going to do with Oscar?  Somebody has got to go - would it be Oscar and we keep Craig and Adams?

Rat

I have no clue what the batting avg has to do with his defensive liabilities in center. As far as errors go Craig has no errors at RF give him the gold glove. Gets to a lot of ball?! ...his range is his greatest liability.
You're punching a strawman Mapster. 

Prior to this season Jon has had one bad (2013) season out of four.  Peter has had one good one in four.



EDIT:  Grammar

Last edited 6/19/2014 2:45 PM by MagnoliaCardFan

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Posted: 6/19/2014 2:42 PM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



Carter64 wrote:
RatsBuddy wrote: A .300 hitting centerfielder that makes very, very few errors and gets to alot of balls - he is a disaster???

Rat
He most CERTAINLY was a disaster in the WS. That performance magnified his futility of last season. He was putrid from the moment Beltran cut in front of him and nailed the guy. Robinson, who got some hits and even a HR should have started every game.
I, too, thought JJ was looking for a place to hide after that moment.  That stated, was he any more a disaster than, say, Waino?  Adams?  Carpenter came out of his funk a little late to save us.  Been nice if Craig could have arrived sooner.  Koz's magic was gone.  Wacha was our only shutdown starter and he wore out at the end.

Back to our Jay vs Bourjos debate, I also believe that if Bourjos had been the CF'er (in the WS), Carlos would have taken the ball from him too, for the same reason.
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Posted: 6/19/2014 3:13 PM

Re: Jon Jay has earned the CF spot 



MagnoliaCardFan wrote:
MAP315 wrote:
RatsBuddy wrote: A .300 hitting centerfielder that makes very, very few errors and gets to alot of balls - he is a disaster???

What on earth are we going to do with Oscar?  Somebody has got to go - would it be Oscar and we keep Craig and Adams?

Rat

I have no clue what the batting avg has to do with his defensive liabilities in center. As far as errors go Craig has no errors at RF give him the gold glove. Gets to a lot of ball?! ...his range is his greatest liability.
You're punching a strawman Mapster. 

Prior to this season Jon has had one bad (2013) season out of four.  Peter has had one good one in four.



EDIT:  Grammar
Bourjos is a better defensive CF than most he is a top 5 defensive CF....that puts him so far ahead of Jay is not funny. But he has been very bad offensively no doubt about that. When comparing the two you give the edge to Jay offensively and the edge to Bourjos defensively. Simple. Their lifetime WAR is 9.4 to 9.2 in Jay's favor...so how does that makes Jay the de facto CF? Send Bourjos down for a couple of weeks to work on his swing. But play the CF based on matchups not only because Jay has a .300 or better batting avg. Discarding Bourjos value because is on defense not offense is asenine especially when it is a very important defensive position like CF.
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