Free Trial Ad
Why Subscribe?
  • Player/Prospect News
  • Exclusive Insider Info
  • Members-Only Forums
  • Exclusive Videos
  • Subscribe Now!
InboxChat RoomChat Room (0 fans in chatroom)
Reply to TopicPost New Topic
  Page of 4  Next >

Reshaping the bench

Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 11:35 AM

Reshaping the bench 


With the arrival of Mark Ellis, which infielder loses his roster spot?

(Note: On the "no one" option below, the likely loser would be Shane Robinson/Oscar Taveras.)

    Who will lose his bench spot?

  1. Poll closed on 12/22/2013
  2. Daniel Descalso: 29 votes
  3. Pete Kozma: 17 votes
  4. No one. StL will carry 3 IF and 1 OF reserve.: 0 votes
  5. Don't know.: 2 votes
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
Follow both Brian and TCN on Twitter

Last edited 12/15/2013 11:37 AM by Domeboys

Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 11:47 AM

Re: Reshaping the bench 



Domeboys wrote: With the arrival of Mark Ellis, which infielder loses his roster spot?

(Note: On the "no one" option below, the likely loser would be Shane Robinson/Oscar Taveras.)
I "think" it will be Kozma.  I "want" it to be Descalso.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 12/15/2013 11:48 AM

Re: Reshaping the bench 



crdswmn wrote:
Domeboys wrote: With the arrival of Mark Ellis, which infielder loses his roster spot?

(Note: On the "no one" option below, the likely loser would be Shane Robinson/Oscar Taveras.)
I "think" it will be Kozma.  I "want" it to be Descalso.
IF we want to have somebody that can play SS it better be Descalso, cause Ellis is pretty muuch able to play where Descalso can but can hit little better....Descalso is WORTHLESS if he going to back up SS
Reply | Quote

Posted: 12/15/2013 12:04 PM

Re: Reshaping the bench 


Whether I think differently, I believe that Matheny believes that Descalso can back up at SS and, therefore, I think Descalso stays and Kozma goes. 

If Descalso's salary rises beyond the Cardinals comfort, I could see DD losing out but, otherwise, I think it is Kozma that goes back to Memphis.
KBoyer14HOF
Reply | Quote
  • MAP315
  • St. Louis Cardinal
  • 3884 posts this site

Posted: 12/15/2013 12:08 PM

Re: Reshaping the bench 



crdswmn wrote:
Domeboys wrote: With the arrival of Mark Ellis, which infielder loses his roster spot?

(Note: On the "no one" option below, the likely loser would be Shane Robinson/Oscar Taveras.)
I "think" it will be Kozma.  I "want" it to be Descalso.
+1
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 12:09 PM

RE: Reshaping the bench 


I am thinking niether will end up on the roster.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 12:33 PM

Re: Reshaping the bench 


As I indicated over on Facebook when Brian posed this question, it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

Ellis' righty bat makes Kozma's righty bat (such as it is) superfluous, advantage DD.

DD is also a little better hitter than Kozma, advantage again DD.

Kozma, however, is much better defensively.  Advantage PK.

Kozma also is one of the faster guys on the team (Kelly being the other) and we've seen in the postseason how effective he was as a pinch-runner.  Advantage PK.

The other factor, as alluded in the poll, is Robinson - does he make the team?  What about Jay?  What if Tavares has a good enough spring to force himself onto the roster?

And let's not forget the possibility of a trade: after we made the Vina deal late in ST of 2000, McEwing (the 1999 starter at 2B) and Kennedy (the up-and-comer) were both rendered expendable.  We traded McEwing to New York for Orosco (who unfortunately got hurt right away) and traded Kennedy to Anaheim as part of the Edmonds deal (that one worked out pretty well).

Could DD be traded to a team that needs infield help or a lefty bat?  Perhaps the Giants (he'd make a fine late-inning defensive replacement for Sandoval, for instance)?

And, of course, both DD and PK have options.  I'd be surprised to see Descalso sent to the minors, though - he's not yet eligible to refuse such an assignment, but he'll be making somewhere between $1.5 and $2.0MM this season and you don't generally send guys making that much down to the minors.  Kozma is still near the minimum salary and would be more likely to be sent down if it came to that, and precedent is there:  Jose Oquendo spent 1985 at AAA for the Cardinals after having been the full-time starter at SS in 1984 for the Mets.  He then made the team in 1986 after Ivan Dejesus left via free agency.

It will be interesting, as I say, to see how this all shakes out.  In the meantime, I hope MM is telling Ellis to take a lot of reps at SS and 3B; he's got very limited experience at those two positions (about 63 innings total at each position).  Also in the meantime, I think this move means Matt Carpenter can retire his second-baseman's glove for the time being; with three or four other guys on the team who can play 2B, he'll not likely be going back there anytime soon.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 12:49 PM

Re: Reshaping the bench 


Checking the pinch-hit numbers:

Ellis, having been a starter most of his career (and in the AL for a large portion of it) has somewhat limited PH experience:  6-for-31 (.194) with 1 double and 3 RBI.
Kozma is 1-for-8 (.125) with a double and 1 RBI.
Robinson is 17-for-76 (.224) with 4 doubles and 4 RBI (plus that pinch-homer in the postseason).
Bourjos is 0-for-6.

Checking the lefthanded batters:

Descalso is 12-for-68 (.176) with 3 doubles and 6 RBI.
Jay is 14-for-54 (.259) with 2 doubles, 2 HR and 5 RBI.
Adams is 12-for-38 (.316) with a double, 3 HR and 11 RBI.
Wong is 1-for-15 (.067).

Make of that what you will.  FWIW, the NL average for pinch-hitting in 2013 was .224.  Small sample sizes, to be sure, and of course Adams, Bourjos and Wong are presumptive starters in 2014.

Last edited 12/15/2013 12:51 PM by Jmodene1

Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 12:52 PM

Re: Reshaping the bench 


i think jay, kozma and descalso are all gone... eventually.

robinson is a perfect foil for either adams or taveras (assuming craig plays first when adams sits).  jay is the odd man out.  robinson plays better D and hits lefties pretty well.  I think jay gets traded before spring.  for what?  won't be a bag of balls, i'll say that.  he's a good player just the odd man out in the current situation.

as for kozma and descalso... they don't do enough things well to stay on the roster.  ellis is replacing one of them.  as for the other... no clue yet, but the offseason isn't over.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 12/15/2013 1:13 PM

Re: Reshaping the bench 



brianpnoonan wrote: i think jay, kozma and descalso are all gone... eventually.

robinson is a perfect foil for either adams or taveras (assuming craig plays first when adams sits).  jay is the odd man out.  robinson plays better D and hits lefties pretty well.  I think jay gets traded before spring.  for what?  won't be a bag of balls, i'll say that.  he's a good player just the odd man out in the current situation.

as for kozma and descalso... they don't do enough things well to stay on the roster.  ellis is replacing one of them.  as for the other... no clue yet, but the offseason isn't over.
If Greg Garcia has a strong spring-training and if Descalso salary has to increase by $1M or so....I can see Garcia replacing Descalso. In the past, the Cardinals have seemed willing to take a chance on minor league players and that may be the case again in choosing between GG and DD.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 1:48 PM

RE: Reshaping the bench 


I guess I could have put an option in the poll called "both," but it seemed highly unlikely to me that both Descalso and Kozma will be off the 2014 team and Garcia on.
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
Follow both Brian and TCN on Twitter

Last edited 12/15/2013 1:48 PM by Domeboys

Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 2:09 PM

RE: Reshaping the bench 


I wouldn't be surprised to see a scramble for the last infield reserve slot at ST, among internal as well as a new face or two.

With both Ellis and Wong being essentially 2B only, the other reserve will be all the more important, so as to avoid having the whole infield scrambled when Mike needs to double switch.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 12/15/2013 2:16 PM

RE: Reshaping the bench 


Unfortunately I think it will be Taveras. At least right away anyways. I think he's more than ready but just have a bad feeling he won't be up right away.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 2:32 PM

RE: Reshaping the bench 



Domeboys wrote: I guess I could have put an option in the poll called "both," but it seemed highly unlikely to me that both Descalso and Kozma will be off the 2014 team and Garcia on.
mo said at the beginning of the offseason that he's looking for a young, controllable shortstop.

i doubt that's off the table, even with peralta signing.  we're still paper thin at the position even adding peralta (in my opinion he's the ONLY option).  depending on the shortstop we could still be adding someone in the offseason to the 25 man roster.

so, it might be garcia.  it might be someone else.  i just don't see kozma on the roster at all and descalso is probably gone with ellis' signing.

my guess is mo is going to be hammering at gms for a reasonable deal for the rest of the winter, even if it's a 3 way deal.  he's got the chips, just a matter of finding the right one coming back.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 2:34 PM

RE: Reshaping the bench 


Kozma IMO.. While Petey is the better defender and has more speed.. I think DD is viewed as a more reliable player.. Ellis is a good signing overall.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 12/15/2013 5:23 PM

RE: Reshaping the bench 


Total no-brainer. Kozma is history. But if I'm DD, I sure as heck am not feeling safe either. Kozma's post season mental defensive blunders for the second consecutive year sealed his fate with the Cardinal organization. His team needed him to field his position to the same degree of efficiency in the playoffs as he performed during the regular season. He let his team down.....he won't be given a third chance. To me it's almost unimaginable that anyone actually believes that Kozma will be on that 2014 roster.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 6:14 PM

Re: Reshaping the bench 



brianpnoonan wrote: i think jay, kozma and descalso are all gone... eventually.

robinson is a perfect foil for either adams or taveras (assuming craig plays first when adams sits).  jay is the odd man out.  robinson plays better D and hits lefties pretty well.  I think jay gets traded before spring.  for what?  won't be a bag of balls, i'll say that.  he's a good player just the odd man out in the current situation.

as for kozma and descalso... they don't do enough things well to stay on the roster.  ellis is replacing one of them.  as for the other... no clue yet, but the offseason isn't over.
+1 on this. I cannot see the Cards carrying either this year. I could see one of them at Memphis though for an emergency call up. As for Jay and Robinson it should be JJ as the fourth guy b/e he is just the better player and has more experience too. Jay would probably have more ac tual trade value though. I suspect the Cardinals are not done yet though and these questions could become moot.

GO CARDS!
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 12/15/2013 6:26 PM

Re: Reshaping the bench 


We could still be looking for that righty power bat - Baker?  Which would put Jay and/or Robinson at risk, obviously.  Interestingly enough, as I noted elsewhere, Jay and Robinson are, after Adams, our two best pinch-hitters.

Barring Garcia making the team out of ST, though, it's likely we'll have to carry either Kozma or Descalso since Ellis - at this point - is not a shortstop at all.  That's why I suggested MM tell him to take a lot of reps this winter and spring at SS and 3B, since he would have to be able to play those other positions if he were to be the only infield backup.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 12/15/2013 6:34 PM

Re: Reshaping the bench 


I voted for Kozma being gone.... but I think both will be with Greg Garcia coming up.  Based simply on OBP, Garcia has to be better than both of them and can play 2nd, 3rd and SS.  He's probably between Kozma and Descalso on the defensive side of SS. 

Still hoping they sign someone for the bench that can add at least a little power from the bench.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 12/15/2013 6:40 PM

Re: Reshaping the bench 


I voted that Descalso would go but the Cardinals may want to send Kozma out to Memphis to see if he can use his major league experience to see if he can retool his hitting with regular minor league play.

We can live with Descalso as a backup shortstop and of course he is a good backup at second or third. Kozma has hit well in short streaks. The question is whether that is an indication of hitting potential or just a flash in the pan. All Kozma has to do is get his hitting up to the .250-.260 level without striking out so much. One thing he has to do is quit taking those get me over fastballs for strike one.

I'm really surprised that Ellis came on with the possibility of being a utility player.
Reply | Quote
Reply to TopicPost New Topic
  Page of 4  Next >