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Big Papi

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Posted: 10/30/2013 12:13 PM

Big Papi 


Is David Ortiz' past connection to steroids a "dark cloud" issue to you as it is for this writer from Business Insider?
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
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Posted: 10/30/2013 12:26 PM

Re: Big Papi 


Absolutely!  Four years ago he couldn't generate the bat speed to hit a fastball.  Now he's 11-15 in the World Series at age 37.  No link or positive test needed.  That is a positive test.
"Sometimes you win.  Sometimes you lose.  Sometimes it rains." -- Nuke Laloosh.
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Posted: 10/30/2013 12:48 PM

Re: Big Papi 


So what happens if he were to test positive say, in December?  Would they forfeit the WS?  I doubt it.

As it is, Ortiz is the MVP - even if the Cards win the Series (our only candidate, really, would be Wacha, assuming he gets the win in Game 6).
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Posted: 10/30/2013 12:52 PM

RE: Big Papi 


I was wondering if they test players during the postseason. If so, when would the results be known? No time for an appeals process, so how does that work. To be clear, I'm not accusing anyone, I'm just curious. I figure most baseball players are up to something (ped's, foreign substances, stealing signs, etc.), so it's hard to single guys out.

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Posted: 10/30/2013 1:00 PM

Re: Big Papi 


I would hope that the current testing is done in such a way that it would be nearly impossible for a player to be able to use PEDs without getting caught.

In my opinion, if Ortiz did some things in the past but is clean today, then it does not cast a dark cloud over the Series at all.

He has been the difference in the Series though. He's easily the best player out there, and the main reason the Red Sox are within a game of winning the championship.

Hopefully we have two games left, and he goes 0 for 8 the rest of the way and finishes with a still excellent .478 mark to lead the losing Red Sox in hitting.
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Posted: 10/30/2013 3:33 PM

RE: Big Papi 


I don't think there is any cloud over this series. While Ortiz has been awesome at the plate, he is not the only reason we are in this position. Even if there is a finding at some point in the future that he was using PEDs now, that doesn't change the fact that we are not hitting.

I did see something interesting today on MLB Network: his BA for the series on pitches in the lowest 1/3 on the left side 2/3s of the plate is under .200 for each of the zones. In other words, pitch him low and inside.
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Posted: 10/30/2013 3:49 PM

Re: Big Papi 



bicyclemike wrote: I would hope that the current testing is done in such a way that it would be nearly impossible for a player to be able to use PEDs without getting caught.

In my opinion, if Ortiz did some things in the past but is clean today, then it does not cast a dark cloud over the Series at all.

He has been the difference in the Series though. He's easily the best player out there, and the main reason the Red Sox are within a game of winning the championship.

Hopefully we have two games left, and he goes 0 for 8 the rest of the way and finishes with a still excellent .478 mark to lead the losing Red Sox in hitting.
This is not a reflection on Oritz, but a more generic point. As the writer mentioned, almost all of the Biogenesis group (who, except for A-Rod, accepted their 50 game suspensions without appeal) have apparently never failed a test. The users may remain a step or two ahead of the testers.
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
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Last edited 10/30/2013 3:50 PM by Domeboys

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Posted: 10/30/2013 3:52 PM

Re: Big Papi 



Domeboys wrote:
This is not a reflection on Oritz, but a more generic point. As the writer mentioned, almost all of the Biogenesis group (who, except for A-Rod, accepted their 50 game suspensions without appeal) have apparently never failed a test. The users may remain a step or two ahead of the testers.

Didn't Ryan Braun fail?
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Posted: 10/30/2013 3:59 PM

Re: Big Papi 



bicyclemike wrote:
Domeboys wrote:
This is not a reflection on Oritz, but a more generic point. As the writer mentioned, almost all of the Biogenesis group (who, except for A-Rod, accepted their 50 game suspensions without appeal) have apparently never failed a test. The users may remain a step or two ahead of the testers.

Didn't Ryan Braun fail?
You missed one word. And besides, Braun failed before, not because of the Biogenesis revelations. Is catching one of every 15 admitted users an effective testing program to you?

P.S. I am not admonishing MLB for trying. I believe they are. But Biogenesis reminded us that MLB should not be declaring victory.
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
Follow both Brian and TCN on Twitter

Last edited 10/30/2013 4:03 PM by Domeboys

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Posted: 10/30/2013 4:24 PM

RE: Big Papi 


Well most of that 2004 Red Sox team juiced and we lost that year so obviously if someone is cheating on the other team especially the top producers i.e. Ortiz and Rameriz I'm going to have an issue with it.
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Posted: 10/30/2013 5:29 PM

Re: Big Papi 


Maury Brown also writing on the subject today at Forbes.
Brian Walton
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  • Bworth
  • Memphis Redbird
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Posted: 10/30/2013 10:57 PM

RE: Big Papi 


Can`t stand the guy.I thinks its funny how the guy sucked in Cleveland for years then goes to Boston where Manny Roid is a turns into a slugger and has the ESPN PR machine magnifying every hit to gigantic proportions.
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Posted: 10/30/2013 10:58 PM

Re: Big Papi 


I think it cast a dark cloud but he's just one man and even if he was juicing other did damage to us as well including ourselves.

 Suggested U. of Illinois mascots

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Posted: 10/31/2013 12:48 AM

RE: Big Papi 


Actually, it was Manny who went from Cleveland to Boston.  Ortiz went to Boston after the Twins non-tendered him.
Bworth wrote: Can`t stand the guy.I thinks its funny how the guy sucked in Cleveland for years then goes to Boston where Manny Roid is a turns into a slugger and has the ESPN PR machine magnifying every hit to gigantic proportions.
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Posted: 10/31/2013 7:02 AM

Re: Big Papi 


Firstly let me send congrats to the St Louis Cards (the rightfull 2013 world champions. Please take note that I am not a Cards fan so my post is as an outside observer.

David Ortiz 2 and 1/2 years ago was ready to be dumped by Boston. He had to cheat on fastballs to even get close to hitting them. He gained 43 lbs of muscle over last winter. Roids were found in his hummer with needles but they belonged to someone else and he was (day to day) when Boston was informed that the testers were coming.

Jon Lester in 2012 was all done .482 era and anyone could hit the guy. He to ate well and gained 21 lbs over the winter(and several mph to his fastball and cutter).

Buckholtz has already been caught and suspended for a few games for using foreign substances in his glove several times in his pro career.

Jacoby was always fast but could not hit a baseball before his big weight gain in the 2010 off season. Then check his bat numbers for 2011-2013.

Stephen drew is kicked off of 2 other teams and has done nothing above a .700 OPS since 2011 before his ahhemm  muscle weight program of last winter and a ahhhemmm change to his batting stance.

Mike Napoli traded away by Jays right after they picked him up takes on 27 lbs of muscle and has a 32 year old career year with Boston.

Manager John Farrell was suspect when Jays players were conveniently on maternity leave or personal business leave or on the day to day DL when testing was to be done.

Now to answer your question...There is no doubt in my mind that Boston Red Sox cheated their way to the 2013 world series but MLB loves it.  Boston sells tickets and MLB merchandise galore as do the Yankees. Therefore those 2 teams can do whatever they like and get away with it. I will bet you right now that A-Rod wins his suit against MLB because he is as innocent as the snowflakes of God. Ya Right In closing once again Congrats to the Cards the best team in baseball in 2013. I am only sorry you don,t have a WS to show for it as you deserved it.
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Posted: 10/31/2013 8:12 AM

Re: Big Papi 


In the words of the great Arte Johnson...."interesting.... verrrrry interesting". Yeah I know sour grapes come into play here, but what the heck. Who knows? Maybe 50 years from now they run the blood samples from 2013 and it's revealed that 12 of the players off the 2013 WS champion Red Sox squad were riddled with roids and none of the Cardinal players had it in their system. And then finally the trophy is given to it's rightful owner. Look at all of these Cold Case murder crimes that are being solved today due to the tech. advances. All of these players should be tested....but are they? And if they are, by golly hang on to those samples!
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  • Bworth
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Posted: 10/31/2013 8:28 AM

RE: Big Papi 



Jmodene1 wrote: Actually, it was Manny who went from Cleveland to Boston.  Ortiz went to Boston after the Twins non-tendered him.
Bworth wrote: Can`t stand the guy.I thinks its funny how the guy sucked in Cleveland for years then goes to Boston where Manny Roid is a turns into a slugger and has the ESPN PR machine magnifying every hit to gigantic proportions.
So Ortiz goes to Boston teammates with Manroid and fails drug test 2003 first year in Boston with Manroid.Yeah he`s a hard worker.
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Posted: 10/31/2013 9:38 AM

Re: Big Papi 


Yes, and you are the (edited for board compliance) who claims to have documented proof.  Put up or shut yourself in your mother's basement where you belong.  

And, as you are so devoid of them, here are some facts:

1)  If you look at baseball-reference.com, you would see the following:

1)  Lester's 2013 totals are pretty much right at his 162 game average, even taking into account his lousy 2012.  Other pitchers who rebounded from one sub par season in their late 20's include Steve Carlton, Mike Cuellar, Dennis Martinez, John Tudor, and Luis Tiant.  I am sure there are dozens more, those were just names I searched.

2)  Ellsbury had an outlier in power numbers in 2011, no argument.  But, to suggest he never hit before that is ignorant.  In 2008 he hit 280, in 2009 he hit 301.  He was hurt for 90% of 2010.

3)  Napoli's 162 game average is once again right in line with his numbers from this year.

Some other facts:

Clay Buchholz has never been suspended at any level for doctoring a baseball that I can find.  If you have facts, please enlighten us.

I had the exact same injury Drew had, and have 10 screws and a plate in my right leg to this day.  It took me over a year to feel right again, and all I was trying to do was walk an 18 hole golf course.  Once again, looking at baseball reference, his 162 game average is actually better than his numbers this year.  Some guys, Mike LaValliere comes to mind, were never the same after an injury like that.

If Ortiz has gained 43 pounds of muscle he should be playing for the Patriots.  There is no visible difference in him over the last couple of years.  Is it possible he is on something, sure it is.  I think you can say that about at least one member of every team in the Series probably dating back to the 86 Mets.  

Sorry to put facts in the way of a perfectly ignorant rant, but somebody had to.



diablo1111 wrote: Firstly let me send congrats to the St Louis Cards (the rightfull 2013 world champions. Please take note that I am not a Cards fan so my post is as an outside observer.

David Ortiz 2 and 1/2 years ago was ready to be dumped by Boston. He had to cheat on fastballs to even get close to hitting them. He gained 43 lbs of muscle over last winter. Roids were found in his hummer with needles but they belonged to someone else and he was (day to day) when Boston was informed that the testers were coming.

Jon Lester in 2012 was all done .482 era and anyone could hit the guy. He to ate well and gained 21 lbs over the winter(and several mph to his fastball and cutter).

Buckholtz has already been caught and suspended for a few games for using foreign substances in his glove several times in his pro career.

Jacoby was always fast but could not hit a baseball before his big weight gain in the 2010 off season. Then check his bat numbers for 2011-2013.

Stephen drew is kicked off of 2 other teams and has done nothing above a .700 OPS since 2011 before his ahhemm  muscle weight program of last winter and a ahhhemmm change to his batting stance.

Mike Napoli traded away by Jays right after they picked him up takes on 27 lbs of muscle and has a 32 year old career year with Boston.

Manager John Farrell was suspect when Jays players were conveniently on maternity leave or personal business leave or on the day to day DL when testing was to be done.

Now to answer your question...There is no doubt in my mind that Boston Red Sox cheated their way to the 2013 world series but MLB loves it.  Boston sells tickets and MLB merchandise galore as do the Yankees. Therefore those 2 teams can do whatever they like and get away with it. I will bet you right now that A-Rod wins his suit against MLB because he is as innocent as the snowflakes of God. Ya Right In closing once again Congrats to the Cards the best team in baseball in 2013. I am only sorry you don,t have a WS to show for it as you deserved it.


Last edited 10/31/2013 11:00 AM by UConnCard

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Posted: 10/31/2013 10:31 AM

Re: Big Papi 


Sweet! Wouldn't you love to see Sox and Diablo duke it out today in a war of words right here at The Cardinal Nation? Both look like pretty smart dudes and both appear to be pretty darn stubborn in their opinions. That's a pretty good recipe for an all out verbal donnybrook. Please gentlemen.....feel free to go at it! I think you're up, Diablo.
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Posted: 10/31/2013 10:52 AM

Re: Big Papi 


Nah, this guy is just an (edited to comply w/board policy) Pugsley.  This is what he claimed on the Red Sox Board:

Posted: 10/20/2013 7:09 AM

RE: ALCS Thread - Sox vs. Tigers 


Proof positive that MLB looks the other way if your team name is RedSox or Yankees. I personaly know that no less than 5 sox are on juice. This constant Boston or NewYork in the WS is sickening and is ruining baseball. They catch guys like Peralta of Detroit, A-Rod (no brainer) and all the others who are or were serving suspensions but how about Buckholtz, Lester, Ortiz, Ellbury and Napoli who ran through the 2013 season on juice while MLB looks the other way. Note: for those guys-- David you and your cohorts can sue me if you wish but remember I still have the pics. My fav is the one of the open glove box over Jakes shoulder in the Vee.

I would venture a guess that the only pictures he has are the photoshopped ones he made up in his mom's basement, along with the naughty ones of him and Miley Cyrus....

pugsleyaddams wrote: Sweet! Wouldn't you love to see Sox and Diablo duke it out today in a war of words right here at The Cardinal Nation? Both look like pretty smart dudes and both appear to be pretty darn stubborn in their opinions. That's a pretty good recipe for an all out verbal donnybrook. Please gentlemen.....feel free to go at it! I think you're up, Diablo.

Last edited 10/31/2013 10:58 AM by UConnCard

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