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2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20

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Posted: 9/19/2013 5:02 PM

2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


Shelby Miller (14-9, 3.01) vs. Johnny Hellweg (1-4, 8.31). 7:10 PM CT. FOX Sports Midwest and KMOX.
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
Follow both Brian and TCN on Twitter
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Posted: 9/19/2013 8:08 PM

Re: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


1-4 with an ERA of 8.31?

I hope he isn't Cy Hellweg tomorrow night.  Or else we have a bunch of Dal's in the lineup.

Rat
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Posted: 9/19/2013 9:38 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


That ERA doesn't mean anything. Cardinal offense might have to come out with a disciplined approach to Hellweg as he has elite velocity but he has trouble commanding and controlling his pitches at times when he's not repeating his delivery.
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Posted: 9/20/2013 10:16 AM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


Watching the two games in Denver "up close and personal", and putting that together with the numbers it's pretty easy to assess this Cardinal team.

A top level look is that we are excellent at hitting the ball and catching the ball. We really put the ball in play and hit the ball square with great frequency, so it's not surprising to see us score so many runs this year. We also play solid defense. I think our position players are fine as currently constructed.

Where we are vulnerable is pitching, and primarily the bullpen. Our bullpen is average at best. It's understandable why we tend to lose a lot of close games, 18-16 in one run games and 4 games under our expected record. Our bullpen is average, and our late game pitching decisions are not always sound. And then part of that is not having Jason Motte all year. In fact, that is a big part as it forced a lot of people to change roles.

The starting rotation has also undergone a lot of changes as we know. In retrospect, we probably should have re-signed Lohse. He would have taken a lot of pressure off the need to force-feed young arms to the major league level. 

Wacha looks like a guy that will be an excellent pitcher in time, but he should be in AAA this year. You think about the money that would have been committed to Lohse, and then think about starting the clock early on Wacha, not to mention maybe him not getting the chance to develop under less pressure, and you wonder if you really come out ahead by letting him (Lohse) walk.

At any rate, in all honesty I cannot see us getting to the Series with this bullpen. Nor am I confident that management (Matheny-Liliquist) will use the guys in the best manner. Now maybe it will all fall in to place and we'll have guys get hot between now and the end of the post season. That's what happened in 2006 when it seemed that suddenly guys stepped up and were terrific. It sort of happened that way in 2011 as well.

We'll just have to watch it unfold over these next 10 days, and beyond.

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Posted: 9/20/2013 10:37 AM

Re: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


Good points. We could, after all, be the Giants.
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Posted: 9/20/2013 10:37 AM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 



bicyclemike wrote:

Watching the two games in Denver "up close and personal", and putting that together with the numbers it's pretty easy to assess this Cardinal team.

A top level look is that we are excellent at hitting the ball and catching the ball. We really put the ball in play and hit the ball square with great frequency, so it's not surprising to see us score so many runs this year. We also play solid defense. I think our position players are fine as currently constructed.

Where we are vulnerable is pitching, and primarily the bullpen. Our bullpen is average at best. It's understandable why we tend to lose a lot of close games, 18-16 in one run games and 4 games under our expected record. Our bullpen is average, and our late game pitching decisions are not always sound. And then part of that is not having Jason Motte all year. In fact, that is a big part as it forced a lot of people to change roles.

The starting rotation has also undergone a lot of changes as we know. In retrospect, we probably should have re-signed Lohse. He would have taken a lot of pressure off the need to force-feed young arms to the major league level. 

Wacha looks like a guy that will be an excellent pitcher in time, but he should be in AAA this year. You think about the money that would have been committed to Lohse, and then think about starting the clock early on Wacha, not to mention maybe him not getting the chance to develop under less pressure, and you wonder if you really come out ahead by letting him (Lohse) walk.

At any rate, in all honesty I cannot see us getting to the Series with this bullpen. Nor am I confident that management (Matheny-Liliquist) will use the guys in the best manner. Now maybe it will all fall in to place and we'll have guys get hot between now and the end of the post season. That's what happened in 2006 when it seemed that suddenly guys stepped up and were terrific. It sort of happened that way in 2011 as well.

We'll just have to watch it unfold over these next 10 days, and beyond.

I disagree.  The bullpen is not average.  There is a lot of talent in that bullpen (minus Salas and Westbrook, and to a lesser extent Axford (IMO).)  The problem is the talent has been misused.  Rosenthal was relied on too heavily in the first half and is showing the wear of it.  And it is not about innings pitched, it is about frequency of use in games and the unnecessary warm ups.  Mujica was never used properly, left often to mold in the bullpen and then brought out after sitting for long periods of time.  Matheny has not learned how to use these guys in the right situations and in the right frequency to keep them sharp.

I'm sure some will disagree with this, but that is the way I see it.

Last edited 9/20/2013 10:38 AM by crdswmn

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Posted: 9/20/2013 10:57 AM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


What's up with the knock on Axford? As I recall he pitched a scoreless inning again last night. Totally agree about Salad and Westbrook. I hope neither of them is anywhere near the Card's roster next season. I was hoping Mo would outright release Salad today! Mujica is troubling to say the least. I would be very tempted right now to make Siegrist the closer. 
Wondering if Adams is good to go in the lineup tonight?
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Posted: 9/20/2013 11:04 AM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 




---------------------------------------------
--- ageelaw wrote:

What's up with the knock on Axford? As I recall he pitched a scoreless inning again last night. Totally agree about Salad and Westbrook. I hope neither of them is anywhere near the Card's roster next season. I was hoping Mo would outright release Salad today! Mujica is troubling to say the least. I would be very tempted right now to make Siegrist the closer. 
Wondering if Adams is good to go in the lineup tonight?

---------------------------------------------

He is quoted in PD as saying he "hopes" to be ready to play. They are apparently fitting him with a brace to keep him from fully extending his arm and possibly further aggravating the injury.
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Posted: 9/20/2013 11:29 AM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


Well... does yesterday's bitter loss carry over through today and result in poor performance?  Or is this team more resilent than I believe and they rout the Brew Crew?  Lord knows a win is very much needed.

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Posted: 9/20/2013 11:39 AM

Re: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


I have always said that what separates the pros from the amateurs is the ability to deal with adversity.
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Posted: 9/20/2013 11:42 AM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 



RedBirds04 wrote:

Well... does yesterday's bitter loss carry over through today and result in poor performance?  Or is this team more resilent than I believe and they rout the Brew Crew?  Lord knows a win is very much needed.



I hope not.

With Miller going, I could see a 6 inning game from him and 3 shut out innings from Martinez.
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Posted: 9/20/2013 11:45 AM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


The GREAT Matt Holliday now has his OPS+ up to an un-Carlos Lee-like 136.

Yep, .294 BA, down one from last year. .379 OBP, same as last year. .478 SLG....

 

WHAT A DECLINE!!!

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Posted: 9/20/2013 11:46 AM

Re: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


The Cardinals have actually played better at Miller Park this season than they have against the Brewers at Busch.  They are 6-1 there.

It isn't necessarily predictive, as other factors can come into play that weren't present earlier in the season, but it is cause for optimism.
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Posted: 9/20/2013 11:49 AM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


From Passan's article today
Following another scoreless inning Thursday, his 22nd in a row, Siegrist shaved his ERA to 0.49, the lowest ever for a reliever with at least 35 innings pitched.


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Posted: 9/20/2013 12:17 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 




---------------------------------------------
--- PadsFS wrote:


RedBirds04 wrote:Well... does yesterday's bitter loss carry over through today and result in poor performance?  Or is this team more resilent than I believe and they rout the Brew Crew?  Lord knows a win is very much needed.



I hope not.

With Miller going, I could see a 6 inning game from him and 3 shut out innings from Martinez.

---------------------------------------------

The former, maybe. The latter, not likely.
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Posted: 9/20/2013 12:17 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 



crdswmn wrote:
bicyclemike wrote:

Watching the two games in Denver "up close and personal", and putting that together with the numbers it's pretty easy to assess this Cardinal team.

A top level look is that we are excellent at hitting the ball and catching the ball. We really put the ball in play and hit the ball square with great frequency, so it's not surprising to see us score so many runs this year. We also play solid defense. I think our position players are fine as currently constructed.

Where we are vulnerable is pitching, and primarily the bullpen. Our bullpen is average at best. It's understandable why we tend to lose a lot of close games, 18-16 in one run games and 4 games under our expected record. Our bullpen is average, and our late game pitching decisions are not always sound. And then part of that is not having Jason Motte all year. In fact, that is a big part as it forced a lot of people to change roles.

The starting rotation has also undergone a lot of changes as we know. In retrospect, we probably should have re-signed Lohse. He would have taken a lot of pressure off the need to force-feed young arms to the major league level. 

Wacha looks like a guy that will be an excellent pitcher in time, but he should be in AAA this year. You think about the money that would have been committed to Lohse, and then think about starting the clock early on Wacha, not to mention maybe him not getting the chance to develop under less pressure, and you wonder if you really come out ahead by letting him (Lohse) walk.

At any rate, in all honesty I cannot see us getting to the Series with this bullpen. Nor am I confident that management (Matheny-Liliquist) will use the guys in the best manner. Now maybe it will all fall in to place and we'll have guys get hot between now and the end of the post season. That's what happened in 2006 when it seemed that suddenly guys stepped up and were terrific. It sort of happened that way in 2011 as well.

We'll just have to watch it unfold over these next 10 days, and beyond.

I disagree.  The bullpen is not average.  There is a lot of talent in that bullpen (minus Salas and Westbrook, and to a lesser extent Axford (IMO).)  The problem is the talent has been misused.  Rosenthal was relied on too heavily in the first half and is showing the wear of it.  And it is not about innings pitched, it is about frequency of use in games and the unnecessary warm ups.  Mujica was never used properly, left often to mold in the bullpen and then brought out after sitting for long periods of time.  Matheny has not learned how to use these guys in the right situations and in the right frequency to keep them sharp.

I'm sure some will disagree with this, but that is the way I see it.
Completely agree! Mike's use of the bullpen has been nothing short of terrible this year. He actually has taken a step backwards IMO. To me he has blown it in every way possible too. He gets guys up when it is not necessary, gets the wrong guys up too often and brings them in the game and he also is very inconsistent in getting guys the proper rest and work. I am just blown away that anyone could tout Mike for the manager of the year award with a straight face. It is absurd. I know Matheny is a cerebral guy and i believe he will learn from his mistakes over time but can we please cut the BS as far as the job Matheny has done so far? According to Al and Horton every team in the league is talking about the talent St.Louis has in that bullpen. Rosie, Siegrist and Manness have been absolute jewels, Choate and Mujica have been fantastic veteran pitchers and even Axford has a power arm. Freeman has actually been very good too but i don't think Matheny even knows he is on the team. I personally would go with Salas and Freeman in the pen for the playoffs and leave Wacha and Martinez off the roster unless they think Wacha can transition to the pen and take Salas spot.

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 9/20/2013 12:22 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
crdswmn wrote:
bicyclemike wrote:

Watching the two games in Denver "up close and personal", and putting that together with the numbers it's pretty easy to assess this Cardinal team.

A top level look is that we are excellent at hitting the ball and catching the ball. We really put the ball in play and hit the ball square with great frequency, so it's not surprising to see us score so many runs this year. We also play solid defense. I think our position players are fine as currently constructed.

Where we are vulnerable is pitching, and primarily the bullpen. Our bullpen is average at best. It's understandable why we tend to lose a lot of close games, 18-16 in one run games and 4 games under our expected record. Our bullpen is average, and our late game pitching decisions are not always sound. And then part of that is not having Jason Motte all year. In fact, that is a big part as it forced a lot of people to change roles.

The starting rotation has also undergone a lot of changes as we know. In retrospect, we probably should have re-signed Lohse. He would have taken a lot of pressure off the need to force-feed young arms to the major league level. 

Wacha looks like a guy that will be an excellent pitcher in time, but he should be in AAA this year. You think about the money that would have been committed to Lohse, and then think about starting the clock early on Wacha, not to mention maybe him not getting the chance to develop under less pressure, and you wonder if you really come out ahead by letting him (Lohse) walk.

At any rate, in all honesty I cannot see us getting to the Series with this bullpen. Nor am I confident that management (Matheny-Liliquist) will use the guys in the best manner. Now maybe it will all fall in to place and we'll have guys get hot between now and the end of the post season. That's what happened in 2006 when it seemed that suddenly guys stepped up and were terrific. It sort of happened that way in 2011 as well.

We'll just have to watch it unfold over these next 10 days, and beyond.

I disagree.  The bullpen is not average.  There is a lot of talent in that bullpen (minus Salas and Westbrook, and to a lesser extent Axford (IMO).)  The problem is the talent has been misused.  Rosenthal was relied on too heavily in the first half and is showing the wear of it.  And it is not about innings pitched, it is about frequency of use in games and the unnecessary warm ups.  Mujica was never used properly, left often to mold in the bullpen and then brought out after sitting for long periods of time.  Matheny has not learned how to use these guys in the right situations and in the right frequency to keep them sharp.

I'm sure some will disagree with this, but that is the way I see it.
Completely agree! Mike's use of the bullpen has been nothing short of terrible this year. He actually has taken a step backwards IMO. To me he has blown it in every way possible too. He gets guys up when it is not necessary, gets the wrong guys up too often and brings them in the game and he also is very inconsistent in getting guys the proper rest and work. I am just blown away that anyone could tout Mike for the manager of the year award with a straight face. It is absurd. I know Matheny is a cerebral guy and i believe he will learn from his mistakes over time but can we please cut the BS as far as the job Matheny has done so far? According to Al and Horton every team in the league is talking about the talent St.Louis has in that bullpen. Rosie, Siegrist and Manness have been absolute jewels, Choate and Mujica have been fantastic veteran pitchers and even Axford has a power arm. Freeman has actually been very good too but i don't think Matheny even knows he is on the team. I personally would go with Salas and Freeman in the pen for the playoffs and leave Wacha and Martinez off the roster unless they think Wacha can transition to the pen and take Salas spot.
Salas is the weakest link in the bullpen (other than Westbrook)  Wacha and Martinez are young and inexperienced and will get better with time.  Salas has just peaked, he will never be better than he is now.

I don't think Matheny has been nearly as bad as you make him out to be.  His bullpen management needs to get better, I could do without all the bunts and double switches, but all in all I think he has done fine.
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Posted: 9/20/2013 12:57 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 



crdswmn wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
crdswmn wrote:
bicyclemike wrote:

Watching the two games in Denver "up close and personal", and putting that together with the numbers it's pretty easy to assess this Cardinal team.

A top level look is that we are excellent at hitting the ball and catching the ball. We really put the ball in play and hit the ball square with great frequency, so it's not surprising to see us score so many runs this year. We also play solid defense. I think our position players are fine as currently constructed.

Where we are vulnerable is pitching, and primarily the bullpen. Our bullpen is average at best. It's understandable why we tend to lose a lot of close games, 18-16 in one run games and 4 games under our expected record. Our bullpen is average, and our late game pitching decisions are not always sound. And then part of that is not having Jason Motte all year. In fact, that is a big part as it forced a lot of people to change roles.

The starting rotation has also undergone a lot of changes as we know. In retrospect, we probably should have re-signed Lohse. He would have taken a lot of pressure off the need to force-feed young arms to the major league level. 

Wacha looks like a guy that will be an excellent pitcher in time, but he should be in AAA this year. You think about the money that would have been committed to Lohse, and then think about starting the clock early on Wacha, not to mention maybe him not getting the chance to develop under less pressure, and you wonder if you really come out ahead by letting him (Lohse) walk.

At any rate, in all honesty I cannot see us getting to the Series with this bullpen. Nor am I confident that management (Matheny-Liliquist) will use the guys in the best manner. Now maybe it will all fall in to place and we'll have guys get hot between now and the end of the post season. That's what happened in 2006 when it seemed that suddenly guys stepped up and were terrific. It sort of happened that way in 2011 as well.

We'll just have to watch it unfold over these next 10 days, and beyond.

I disagree.  The bullpen is not average.  There is a lot of talent in that bullpen (minus Salas and Westbrook, and to a lesser extent Axford (IMO).)  The problem is the talent has been misused.  Rosenthal was relied on too heavily in the first half and is showing the wear of it.  And it is not about innings pitched, it is about frequency of use in games and the unnecessary warm ups.  Mujica was never used properly, left often to mold in the bullpen and then brought out after sitting for long periods of time.  Matheny has not learned how to use these guys in the right situations and in the right frequency to keep them sharp.

I'm sure some will disagree with this, but that is the way I see it.
Completely agree! Mike's use of the bullpen has been nothing short of terrible this year. He actually has taken a step backwards IMO. To me he has blown it in every way possible too. He gets guys up when it is not necessary, gets the wrong guys up too often and brings them in the game and he also is very inconsistent in getting guys the proper rest and work. I am just blown away that anyone could tout Mike for the manager of the year award with a straight face. It is absurd. I know Matheny is a cerebral guy and i believe he will learn from his mistakes over time but can we please cut the BS as far as the job Matheny has done so far? According to Al and Horton every team in the league is talking about the talent St.Louis has in that bullpen. Rosie, Siegrist and Manness have been absolute jewels, Choate and Mujica have been fantastic veteran pitchers and even Axford has a power arm. Freeman has actually been very good too but i don't think Matheny even knows he is on the team. I personally would go with Salas and Freeman in the pen for the playoffs and leave Wacha and Martinez off the roster unless they think Wacha can transition to the pen and take Salas spot.
Salas is the weakest link in the bullpen (other than Westbrook)  Wacha and Martinez are young and inexperienced and will get better with time.  Salas has just peaked, he will never be better than he is now.

I don't think Matheny has been nearly as bad as you make him out to be.  His bullpen management needs to get better, I could do without all the bunts and double switches, but all in all I think he has done fine.
Ha,ha! You are a person one cannot even agree with and not expect a dis agreement anyways. What an amazing contrary individual you are. Wow!

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 9/20/2013 1:02 PM

Re: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 


Um... Yeah.
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Posted: 9/20/2013 1:07 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 154 thread: Cards at Brewers, Fri 9/20 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
crdswmn wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
crdswmn wrote:
bicyclemike wrote:

Watching the two games in Denver "up close and personal", and putting that together with the numbers it's pretty easy to assess this Cardinal team.

A top level look is that we are excellent at hitting the ball and catching the ball. We really put the ball in play and hit the ball square with great frequency, so it's not surprising to see us score so many runs this year. We also play solid defense. I think our position players are fine as currently constructed.

Where we are vulnerable is pitching, and primarily the bullpen. Our bullpen is average at best. It's understandable why we tend to lose a lot of close games, 18-16 in one run games and 4 games under our expected record. Our bullpen is average, and our late game pitching decisions are not always sound. And then part of that is not having Jason Motte all year. In fact, that is a big part as it forced a lot of people to change roles.

The starting rotation has also undergone a lot of changes as we know. In retrospect, we probably should have re-signed Lohse. He would have taken a lot of pressure off the need to force-feed young arms to the major league level. 

Wacha looks like a guy that will be an excellent pitcher in time, but he should be in AAA this year. You think about the money that would have been committed to Lohse, and then think about starting the clock early on Wacha, not to mention maybe him not getting the chance to develop under less pressure, and you wonder if you really come out ahead by letting him (Lohse) walk.

At any rate, in all honesty I cannot see us getting to the Series with this bullpen. Nor am I confident that management (Matheny-Liliquist) will use the guys in the best manner. Now maybe it will all fall in to place and we'll have guys get hot between now and the end of the post season. That's what happened in 2006 when it seemed that suddenly guys stepped up and were terrific. It sort of happened that way in 2011 as well.

We'll just have to watch it unfold over these next 10 days, and beyond.

I disagree.  The bullpen is not average.  There is a lot of talent in that bullpen (minus Salas and Westbrook, and to a lesser extent Axford (IMO).)  The problem is the talent has been misused.  Rosenthal was relied on too heavily in the first half and is showing the wear of it.  And it is not about innings pitched, it is about frequency of use in games and the unnecessary warm ups.  Mujica was never used properly, left often to mold in the bullpen and then brought out after sitting for long periods of time.  Matheny has not learned how to use these guys in the right situations and in the right frequency to keep them sharp.

I'm sure some will disagree with this, but that is the way I see it.
Completely agree! Mike's use of the bullpen has been nothing short of terrible this year. He actually has taken a step backwards IMO. To me he has blown it in every way possible too. He gets guys up when it is not necessary, gets the wrong guys up too often and brings them in the game and he also is very inconsistent in getting guys the proper rest and work. I am just blown away that anyone could tout Mike for the manager of the year award with a straight face. It is absurd. I know Matheny is a cerebral guy and i believe he will learn from his mistakes over time but can we please cut the BS as far as the job Matheny has done so far? According to Al and Horton every team in the league is talking about the talent St.Louis has in that bullpen. Rosie, Siegrist and Manness have been absolute jewels, Choate and Mujica have been fantastic veteran pitchers and even Axford has a power arm. Freeman has actually been very good too but i don't think Matheny even knows he is on the team. I personally would go with Salas and Freeman in the pen for the playoffs and leave Wacha and Martinez off the roster unless they think Wacha can transition to the pen and take Salas spot.
Salas is the weakest link in the bullpen (other than Westbrook)  Wacha and Martinez are young and inexperienced and will get better with time.  Salas has just peaked, he will never be better than he is now.

I don't think Matheny has been nearly as bad as you make him out to be.  His bullpen management needs to get better, I could do without all the bunts and double switches, but all in all I think he has done fine.
Ha,ha! You are a person one cannot even agree with and not expect a dis agreement anyways. What an amazing contrary individual you are. Wow!
Not contrary, just believe in clarifying that I don't agree with everything you said.
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