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2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14

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Posted: 8/11/2013 1:48 PM

2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 


Shelby Miller (11-7, 2.89) vs. Francisco Liriano (12‐5, 2.83). 7:15 PM CT. FOX Sports Midwest, ESPN and KMOX.
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
Follow both Brian and TCN on Twitter

Last edited 8/14/2013 6:44 AM by Domeboys

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Posted: 8/14/2013 9:26 AM

Re: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 


Pirates have lost 4 in a row now.  And last night's loss was devastating to say the least.  Curious to see if they bounce back and avoid a losing streak and fall back out of first.  The Reds have won 7 of 10 and are on the heels of both Pittsburgh and St. Louis.  In my mind the question is which one of these three will win the division and force the other two to participate in the wild card play-in game.

However, perhaps the most important thing at his point of the day - will Holliday play tonight?

Rat
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Posted: 8/14/2013 9:53 AM

Re: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 


I have heard he is playing.

 

Also:


Cardinals C Yadier Molina took part in most field activities for the second day and plans on playing Thursday, the first day he is eligible to come off the DL from a right knee injury.

 

 

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Posted: 8/14/2013 10:19 AM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 


Last night was an exciting win, but far from a great one. What I do find encouraging is that the Cardinals COULD have scored about a dozen runs, so maybe tonight we keep getting guys on base but hit them home this time around. I have to imagine a Pirate beatdown would do some serious damage to their currently fragile psyche. I'd love to prove that last night wasn't just a fluke win because the Pirates' will to lose was greater than ours.

Of course, Liriano is scary. He has dominated us (2-0 with a 1.93 ERA) and is having an outstanding season. Colorado roughed him up for 10ER in just two and a third though, so I'd love to also prove that his last start was more than a fluke. Before Colorado, he had surrendered just one run in 21 and a third innings!
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Posted: 8/14/2013 11:13 AM

Re: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 


Funny, i went over to the Pirates page so i could read what their fans thought about the game and Marte's goof last night.  I didnt see a game thread.  I kept looking and didnt see any game threads.  Perhaps Pittsburgh still is the Steelers town.

Rat
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Posted: 8/14/2013 11:42 AM

Re: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 




---------------------------------------------
--- RatsBuddy wrote:

Funny, i went over to the Pirates page so i could read what their fans thought about the game and Marte's goof last night.  I didnt see a game thread.  I kept looking and didnt see any game threads.  Perhaps Pittsburgh still is the Steelers town.

Rat

---------------------------------------------

Yeah, me too. I just wanted to see the whole game from their perspective and no game thread. Maybe that is why we had that guest pirate in our thread, who is more than welcome to return.
The Moon rules   #1
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Posted: 8/14/2013 12:53 PM

Re: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 


I disagree Dmens. That was a GREAT win last night. The baseball was ugly and they did not play well but those are two different things IMO. The way they fought back from a 3-0 hole finally tying it in the 9th was a nice sign. Waino shutting the door after 2nd and the bullpen holding the fort was awesome in my book. At risk of pissing off the stat geeks, Not all wins are created equal. If we can get these next two it would have to really put pressure on the Pirates in part b/c of collapses the last two seasons by them. Could Marte's fumbling of "a can of corn" be something they play over and over all off season in Pittsburgh? Let's hope so!

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 8/14/2013 1:01 PM

Re: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 


not all comebacks are like 2011..  and what might have been the greatest game in world series history had five errors (game 6 2011).

sometimes, you have to take advantage of mistakes

we did.  against the team with the best record in baseball.

ugly, but great win.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 1:28 PM

Re: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 



cardinalnationhouston wrote: I disagree Dmens. That was a GREAT win last night. The baseball was ugly and they did not play well but those are two different things IMO. The way they fought back from a 3-0 hole finally tying it in the 9th was a nice sign. Waino shutting the door after 2nd and the bullpen holding the fort was awesome in my book. At risk of pissing off the stat geeks, Not all wins are created equal. If we can get these next two it would have to really put pressure on the Pirates in part b/c of collapses the last two seasons by them. Could Marte's fumbling of "a can of corn" be something they play over and over all off season in Pittsburgh? Let's hope so!

 
I think I'm going to come up with a smartass nickname to deride you from now on.....hmmmm.....

Last edited 8/14/2013 1:29 PM by PadsFS

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Posted: 8/14/2013 1:44 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 


The bullpen was great last night. Jay's at bats, baserunning, and slide at home were all great. Chambers' game winning hit provided a great boost to this ballclub, and it is a great story for the young man. It's even great to finally secure a late game come-from-behind victory. Yes, it was great TO win, but not a great win.

Even after settling down following a rocky start, Wainwright's result shows better than his performance. He did not pitch well, but the Pirates offense was worse. We left 26 players on base to the Pirates 21. With RISP and less than two outs we consistently struggled to avoid the DP or make contact with the baseball. There were two errors committed by the Pirates and nearly a few more by the Cardinals. Matheny made a handful of head-scratching decisions that we are very lucky didn't haunt us in the end, even if they did at the time.

I hope the Cardinals never play like that again. And, a number of the players would probably say the same thing. But that doesn't mean anyone feels it wasn't great TO win. Like y'all said, it doesn't matter HOW you win as long as you win.

I also hope my words don't get confused with being negative or unappreciative of the win. I'm just exploring the semantics of a great win versus a great result. Trust me, I am thrilled for the victory and I certainly recognize the significance of how we won, when we won, and who we beat. Simply put, the Pirates will to lose was somehow greater than ours. I'll take it.

Hopefully we play better tonight and hopefully the result is the same for game number two of a pivotal series.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 1:51 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 



DMENS wrote: The bullpen was great last night. Jay's at bats, baserunning, and slide at home were all great. Chambers' game winning hit provided a great boost to this ballclub, and it is a great story for the young man. It's even great to finally secure a late game come-from-behind victory. Yes, it was great TO win, but not a great win.

Even after settling down following a rocky start, Wainwright's result shows better than his performance. He did not pitch well, but the Pirates offense was worse. We left 26 players on base to the Pirates 21. With RISP and less than two outs we consistently struggled to avoid the DP or make contact with the baseball. There were two errors committed by the Pirates and nearly a few more by the Cardinals. Matheny made a handful of head-scratching decisions that we are very lucky didn't haunt us in the end, even if they did at the time.

I hope the Cardinals never play like that again. And, a number of the players would probably say the same thing. But that doesn't mean anyone feels it wasn't great TO win. Like y'all said, it doesn't matter HOW you win as long as you win.

I also hope my words don't get confused with being negative or unappreciative of the win. I'm just exploring the semantics of a great win versus a great result. Trust me, I am thrilled for the victory and I certainly recognize the significance of how we won, when we won, and who we beat. Simply put, the Pirates will to lose was somehow greater than ours. I'll take it.

Hopefully we play better tonight and hopefully the result is the same for game number two of a pivotal series.
Part of a good pitcher's "performance" is the ability to get outs and keep your team in the game even without your best stuff.  Wainwright excelled at this.  So, I disagree that his result showed better than his performance.  His result was exactly what you would expect from that performance.

He didn't have his curve ball consistently and the execution of some his pitches was bad.  So his "pitching" was not as good as the result, but his "performance" was.  I believe there is a distinction.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 2:46 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 



crdswmn wrote: Part of a good pitcher's "performance" is the ability to get outs and keep your team in the game even without your best stuff.  Wainwright excelled at this.  So, I disagree that his result showed better than his performance.  His result was exactly what you would expect from that performance.

He didn't have his curve ball consistently and the execution of some his pitches was bad.  So his "pitching" was not as good as the result, but his "performance" was.  I believe there is a distinction.
Ugh, your desire to argue semantics is worse than my own. From Webster's:

Performance: the execution of an action
Result: to proceed or arise as a consequence, effect, or conclusion

I count pitching (as in, execution of the pitches) as the barometer of a pitcher's performance. I count his ability to get outs as the result. He got outs (the good result) despite not having his best execution of pitches (the poor performance), which means a third party had to affect the consequence or conclusion. That third party was the Pirates, who failed to take advantage of a sub-par ace.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 2:49 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 



DMENS wrote:
crdswmn wrote: Part of a good pitcher's "performance" is the ability to get outs and keep your team in the game even without your best stuff.  Wainwright excelled at this.  So, I disagree that his result showed better than his performance.  His result was exactly what you would expect from that performance.

He didn't have his curve ball consistently and the execution of some his pitches was bad.  So his "pitching" was not as good as the result, but his "performance" was.  I believe there is a distinction.
Ugh, your desire to argue semantics is worse than my own. From Webster's:

Performance: the execution of an action
Result: to proceed or arise as a consequence, effect, or conclusion

I count pitching (as in, execution of the pitches) as the barometer of a pitcher's performance. I count his ability to get outs as the result. He got outs (the good result) despite not having his best execution of pitches (the poor performance), which means a third party had to affect the consequence or conclusion. That third party was the Pirates, who failed to take advantage of a sub-par ace.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree.  I see performance as much more than execution of pitches.  I think you are selling Wainwright short by seeing it so one dimensionally.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 2:57 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 



crdswmn wrote: Well, we will have to agree to disagree.  I see performance as much more than execution of pitches.  I think you are selling Wainwright short by seeing it so one dimensionally.
I'm not sure what is one dimensional about being pleased he got a good result despite having a comparatively off-night, but I guess that's more ground where we can agree to disagree. Which is okay. I'd hate this place if we all agreed all the time.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:02 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 



DMENS wrote:
crdswmn wrote: Well, we will have to agree to disagree.  I see performance as much more than execution of pitches.  I think you are selling Wainwright short by seeing it so one dimensionally.
I'm not sure what is one dimensional about being pleased he got a good result despite having a comparatively off-night, but I guess that's more ground where we can agree to disagree. Which is okay. I'd hate this place if we all agreed all the time.
By one dimensional I mean restricting your definition of "performance" to only execution of pitches.  It wasn't meant as an insult just as disagreement with your premise.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:10 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 



crdswmn wrote: By one dimensional I mean restricting your definition of "performance" to only execution of pitches.  It wasn't meant as an insult just as disagreement with your premise.
It's cool, I like learning how other people see things different from myself.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:15 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 


He didn't have his best stuff and he got through 7 innings giving up only the 3 runs in the first 2 innings. That's an ace performing like one. He battled. He threw 122 pitches and gave his team the chance to come back and win the game. I think this performance says more about Waino's status as an ace than breezing through when he has all his weapons working. He didn't give up he did what he to and the results proved his determination.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:37 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 



MAP315 wrote: He didn't have his best stuff and he got through 7 innings giving up only the 3 runs in the first 2 innings. That's an ace performing like one. He battled. He threw 122 pitches and gave his team the chance to come back and win the game. I think this performance says more about Waino's status as an ace than breezing through when he has all his weapons working. He didn't give up he did what he to and the results proved his determination.
That's sort of what I am getting at.  There are intangibles that are usually overlooked when evaluating a player's performance.  I know most in the sabermetric community don't believe those things matter, and I have said before that I believe they are missing the boat there.  It's true that often terms are bandied about to describe players that really are just excess verbiage.  Terms like "scrappy" or "plays the game the right way" are used in many cases to make an average or mediocre player seem better than they are. Tony LaRussa was a master at this kind of talk.  What I am referring to when I talk about intangibles are qualities that make a good player a great player.  And what Waino did last night is exactly what I mean.  The ability to dig deep within yourself to find that something to turn what could be a disaster into something better. "Not puking on your shoes" as bling so eloquently put it.  Many pitchers don't have it, even very talented ones.  Waino has it in spades.  Chris Carpenter had it.  Some call it a warrior spirit or competitive spirit.  Whatever you want to call it, the one thing you can never say about Waino is that he doesn't give everything he has.  Not all good pitchers do.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 3:40 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 


Has there been any updates on Robinson injury and when he wiinston come off the DL.
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Posted: 8/14/2013 4:01 PM

RE: 2013 MLB game 119 thread: Bucs at Cards, Wed 8/14 


I don't know about Shane, but Yadi is expected to be in the lineup tomorrow and Holliday is back and hitting cleanup today, per Derrick Goold. So it'll be nice to have Seth Maness out of the cleanup slot ;-)
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