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5th Starting Pitcher

Posted: 7/3/2013 7:59 AM

5th Starting Pitcher 


I realize that everyone is panicking with the recent slide by our redbirds. I feel like they will get it figured out and everything will be okay (I'm an optimist). A lot of people seem to think the back-end of the starting rotation is what needs the most attention, and are wondering where we can get our 5th starter from. Perhaps Lyons or maybe even Martinez can come up and fill that role, perhaps the GM makes a trade.

One question I have though, why hasn't Maness been given a chance as the 5th starter? With his sinker and ability to get ground ball outs, it seems like he would be able to eat up innings every five days. Kid has been a starter everywhere he has ever been, it wouldn't be new to him.
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Posted: 7/3/2013 8:47 AM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 


Who are you taking out of the rotation?
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Posted: 7/3/2013 8:54 AM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 


The 5th starter has been on a by committee basis this year. Take out Kelly. Just don't understand why Wacha, Lyons, Gast, etc. have been given the opportunity when arguably one of the better relievers hasn't had that chance. I would think Rosenthal would also be given a chance eventually, no?

Last edited 7/3/2013 8:55 AM by RS1989

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Posted: 7/3/2013 8:56 AM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 


Again, Just trying to throw possibilities out there. Whatever Matheny and Co. think is best for the team I'm all for. Just for conversations sake.
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Posted: 7/3/2013 9:10 AM

Re: 5th Starting Pitcher 


Kelly is set to be the 5th guy and he deserves it. He's had some pretty solid long relief outings lately
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Posted: 7/3/2013 9:28 AM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 


I believe that Jake Westbrook is still not right and that his age and all that wear and tear has taken its toll.  Right now, he seems to be the one that I am most worried about.  I think Lynn will be fine and Miller will make the necessary adjustments. 

While the pitching has been abysmal lately, sans Waingwrght, my larger concern is the bottom of the order.  The Cardinals are playing six inning games because the bottom three are producing nothing.  Everytime they roll into an inning, it is three up and three down.  The other issue is the lack of depth to replace them. 

As for Maness, he could start because, as stated, he has always been a starter.  However, he is not stretched out to start now and the Cardinals aren't going to send him to Memphis for that purpose.  He has been too good in the bullpen. 

Mo has his work cut out for him.  I doubt he can address every issue at the trade deadline but I hope he is able to solve a couple of the issues that this team is facing.
KBoyer14HOF

Last edited 7/3/2013 12:22 PM by mike87114

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  • MAP315
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Posted: 7/3/2013 9:57 AM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 



mike87114 wrote: I believe that Jake Westbrook is still not right and that his age and all that wear and tear has taken its toll.  Right now, he seems to be the one that I am most worried about.  I think Lynn will be fine and Miller will make the necessary adjustments. 

While the pitching has been abysmal lately, sans Waingwrght, my larger concern is the bottom of the order.  The Cardinals are playing six inning games because the bottom three are producing nothing.  Everytime they roll into an inning, it is three up and three down.  The other issue is the lack of depth to replace them. 

As for Maness, he could start because, as stated, he has always been a starter.  However, he is not stretched out to start now and the Cardinals aren't going to send him to Memphis for that purpose now.  He has been too good in the bullpen. 

Mo has his work cut out for him.  I doubt he can address every issue at the trade deadline but I hope he is able to solve a couple of the issues that this team is facing.
I agree with you. The lack of offense from Jay and Kozma hurts but they are good defensively and could be carried if the rest of the offense was more consistent. Carpenter and Craig have been solid. Molina is starting to show a little bit of wear and tear. Beltran has been good but can go cold in short spurts. Holliday and Freese have been mostly disappointing. The bench other than Adams and at times Descalso is abysmal. Westbrook needs to be replaced in the rotation. Bring Martinez up. Waino..Shelby...Lynn...Kelly...Martinez. Let them pitch improve the bench. Not sure what pitcher we could get from a trade but I would not go for Lee.
It looks bad right now but if they can pitch a little better maybe we can win a few games in a row.
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Posted: 7/3/2013 10:35 AM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 


A while ago I suggested, sort of tongue in cheek, bringing up Jackson, Wong and Taveras, shifting Carp to third, and changing out the whole bottom of the order. Won't happen, even if Oscar's ankle heals up. I wouldn't mind if it did, though. Would involve initially moving out Wiggy, Robinson and either Kozma or Descalso. More long term, if the new guys worked out, there would be the issue of what to do with Freese and Jay.

More likely, Mo will change out a bench player and/or a 5th starter. Niether of which will matter since niether is the real problem.
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  • MAP315
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Posted: 7/3/2013 10:44 AM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 


Carrying Cruz (we have to)...Wiggy...Robinson...on the bench hurts a lot.
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Posted: 7/3/2013 11:48 AM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 


Jake has had a bad month, no doubt. But then again no Cardinals pitcher not named Adam Wainwright has been so great, so he seems to have fallen on hard times with the lot. I think the absolutely incredible first month made some people forget that he is just about a career .500 pitcher who tends to struggle on the road.

As for the bottom of the order, my bigger concern, look at this: In their past 7 losses against AL teams, the bottom three spots in the lineup are hitting 7 for 68 with 22 strikeouts. Holy FN crap. They are barely batting over .100!

Since the big Cincinnati series last month, in which we were about on top of the world, Jay has gone 11 for 56. Kozma has gone 12 for 61 and is racking up the strikeouts along the way. That's over 15 games where those two guys are hitting under .200 (and not doing much else to get on base).
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Posted: 7/3/2013 11:58 AM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 


i think all this means is we're going to be looking at CF, SS, and for another pitcher.

Will we do much on the trade front? I have no idea...  but we will be looking as we should.

Taveras will probably be the "answer" in cf... they might try jackson at ss (i don't know, he made a bad impression last year)...  who knows about SP.  We've got pitching depth but having another front line starter for the playoffs might just make the difference.
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Posted: 7/3/2013 12:27 PM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 



brianpnoonan wrote: i think all this means is we're going to be looking at CF, SS, and for another pitcher.

Will we do much on the trade front? I have no idea...  but we will be looking as we should.

Taveras will probably be the "answer" in cf... they might try jackson at ss (i don't know, he made a bad impression last year)...  who knows about SP.  We've got pitching depth but having another front line starter for the playoffs might just make the difference.
Good summary of the situation.  My feeling is we are not going to see anything major as far as trades.  The complimentary pieces sure could use an upgrade though.
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Posted: 7/3/2013 12:43 PM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 



brianpnoonan wrote: i think all this means is we're going to be looking at CF, SS, and for another pitcher.

Will we do much on the trade front? I have no idea...  but we will be looking as we should.

Taveras will probably be the "answer" in cf... they might try jackson at ss (i don't know, he made a bad impression last year)...  who knows about SP.  We've got pitching depth but having another front line starter for the playoffs might just make the difference.
I think people will be very disappointed with Taveras in CF.
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  • MAP315
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Posted: 7/3/2013 12:54 PM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 



crdswmn wrote:
brianpnoonan wrote: i think all this means is we're going to be looking at CF, SS, and for another pitcher.

Will we do much on the trade front? I have no idea...  but we will be looking as we should.

Taveras will probably be the "answer" in cf... they might try jackson at ss (i don't know, he made a bad impression last year)...  who knows about SP.  We've got pitching depth but having another front line starter for the playoffs might just make the difference.
I think people will be very disappointed with Taveras in CF.
Probably and it might be time to trade while his value is high. But if the kid can hit bring him up and keep Jay on the bench as a defensive replacement.
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Posted: 7/3/2013 1:17 PM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 



MAP315 wrote:
crdswmn wrote:
brianpnoonan wrote: i think all this means is we're going to be looking at CF, SS, and for another pitcher.

Will we do much on the trade front? I have no idea...  but we will be looking as we should.

Taveras will probably be the "answer" in cf... they might try jackson at ss (i don't know, he made a bad impression last year)...  who knows about SP.  We've got pitching depth but having another front line starter for the playoffs might just make the difference.
I think people will be very disappointed with Taveras in CF.
Probably and it might be time to trade while his value is high. But if the kid can hit bring him up and keep Jay on the bench as a defensive replacement.
There is no need to trade him just because he can't play CF well.  He can play RF and that is where he has always been projected to play.  If Jay can't turn it around, then another CF is needed, but that guy isn't Taveras.
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Posted: 7/3/2013 1:44 PM

Re: 5th Starting Pitcher 


Agreed.

As for the pitching, I suggested on the other thread that our starters may be out of whack because of all the off-days lately; pitchers - especially starters - are very much creatures of habit and although management has made adjustments to try to keep the Big Four, at least, on schedule, I think that the guys are simply off their rhythm.  With fewer off-days over the next several weeks, perhaps we'll see them get back in the groove.
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Posted: 7/3/2013 1:52 PM

Re: 5th Starting Pitcher 



Jmodene1 wrote: Agreed.

As for the pitching, I suggested on the other thread that our starters may be out of whack because of all the off-days lately; pitchers - especially starters - are very much creatures of habit and although management has made adjustments to try to keep the Big Four, at least, on schedule, I think that the guys are simply off their rhythm.  With fewer off-days over the next several weeks, perhaps we'll see them get back in the groove.
Yes, that's possible.

I expressed another sentiment over on the blog.  Shelby, and to a lesser extent Lynn, are relying too much on their 4 seam fastball, imo.  Now that the season has progressed and hitters are seeing it more, the 4 seamer has become less effective, and without good secondary pitches mixed in more, both of these guys are getting hit more and giving up more runs.
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Posted: 7/3/2013 1:57 PM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 




---------------------------------------------
--- crdswmn wrote:


MAP315 wrote:
crdswmn wrote:
brianpnoonan wrote: i think all this means is we're going to be looking at CF, SS, and for another pitcher.

Will we do much on the trade front? I have no idea...  but we will be looking as we should.

Taveras will probably be the "answer" in cf... they might try jackson at ss (i don't know, he made a bad impression last year)...  who knows about SP.  We've got pitching depth but having another front line starter for the playoffs might just make the difference.
I think people will be very disappointed with Taveras in CF.
Probably and it might be time to trade while his value is high. But if the kid can hit bring him up and keep Jay on the bench as a defensive replacement.
There is no need to trade him just because he can't play CF well.  He can play RF and that is where he has always been projected to play.  If Jay can't turn it around, then another CF is needed, but that guy isn't Taveras.

Agree that Taveras should be in RF. He can spend some time coming off the bench, platooning, and generally just getting used to the bigs while he waits for RF to open up.

The only players available that I am interested in are Price, Tulowitzki, and Profar, but it doesn't seem like any of these three will be moved before the trade deadline.

Miller and Lynn just need more time to develop. Lynn's problem for 'one inning' is kind of quirky. Miller needs to keep working on his secondary stuff. That split finger pitch he has now is excellent. But he needs to develop more confidence in it.
---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 7/3/2013 2:07 PM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 



MAP315 wrote:
 . . . . keep Jay on the bench as a defensive replacement.

"This season Jay ranks 30th among MLB center fielders with minus 5 defensive runs saved, according to Bill James Online.

According to STATS LLC, runners have advanced on Jay's arm at a rate of 61.7 percent this season; that puts him near the bottom among MLB center fielders."



http://www.stltoday.com/sports...b460c17b2a.html

I think maybe Robinson would be the better defensive replacement.

Bernie's column argues that the Cards need to upgrade CF, hinting that the trade deadline might be more interesting than we think.

I'm not sure why the window for the Breakfast With Bernie video article on starting pitching appears at the head of an article on the CF situation.

I would like to know Bernie's take on the Wong/Carp to third scenario.
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Posted: 7/3/2013 2:09 PM

RE: 5th Starting Pitcher 



crdswmn wrote:
brianpnoonan wrote: i think all this means is we're going to be looking at CF, SS, and for another pitcher.

Will we do much on the trade front? I have no idea...  but we will be looking as we should.

Taveras will probably be the "answer" in cf... they might try jackson at ss (i don't know, he made a bad impression last year)...  who knows about SP.  We've got pitching depth but having another front line starter for the playoffs might just make the difference.
I think people will be very disappointed with Taveras in CF.
maybe, but given overall production is he better than jay?  right now?  In september/october?  None of us really knows that answer and he's been hurt so it's tough to say.

jay is just not hitting.  he's an overall liability IMO even with better defense.

If this keeps up for much longer it will probably pay to bring up taveras, so he can be on the playoff roster.
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