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RE: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out

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Posted: 2/5/2013 4:18 PM

RE: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 



m0ssy wrote:

They need to catch Boras with PED's and ban him from baseball.

Hopefully Carpenter isn't done forever. Guy is a hell of a competitor.

Would Lohse already be signed if he wasn't a Boras client?
Nope. It's that nasty losing a draft pick as soon as you sign him thing.  I'm sure a lot of teams don't feel he is worthy of giving up a pick.
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Posted: 2/5/2013 5:06 PM

Re: Mo press conference today 



619illinibooyah wrote: 
I think Mo made it clear that he's ready to roll out with Rosenthal, Kelly, Lynn and Miller to battle for 2 rotation spots.
I'm afraid Garcia won't answer and it will be 3 rotation spots.  I don't like that nearly as much.  Mo probably doesn't either.
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Posted: 2/5/2013 5:43 PM

Re: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


Well, this bloody stinks...

Known 2013 rotation -

Wainer
Lynn
Westbrook
Fragile (who I agree won't actually be pitching this season)

We sure need some of the young guns to step up.

Tough times don't last long but tough people do -

Darryl Kile

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Posted: 2/5/2013 5:50 PM

RE: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


Agreeing with UConn. Even before this, Mo said it was Lynn's rotation spot to lose. So, as I see it, it is the three of Kelly, Miller and Rosenthal competing for Carp's spot (and Garcia's if needed).

Folks seem to forget that Kelly started 16 games last season and had a 3.74 ERA as a rookie starter. Other than Lohse, that was the best ERA of any of the six primary starters.
Brian Walton
The Cardinal Nation and The Cardinal Nation blog
Follow both Brian and TCN on Twitter

Last edited 2/5/2013 5:53 PM by Domeboys

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Posted: 2/5/2013 5:55 PM

Re: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


Now the pressure is on Adam Wainwright more than ever to return to ace form. There has to be cause for concern about how many innings we can get out of the rotation, especially with Garcia's health in question. Agree with UConn that our young guys are going to have to step it up.
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Posted: 2/5/2013 6:52 PM

Re: Mo press conference today 



blingboy wrote:
619illinibooyah wrote: 
I think Mo made it clear that he's ready to roll out with Rosenthal, Kelly, Lynn and Miller to battle for 2 rotation spots.
I'm afraid Garcia won't answer and it will be 3 rotation spots.  I don't like that nearly as much.  Mo probably doesn't either.
It might end up being such. I said before the year that it wasn't in the bag we would get a full year from 2/5 of our rotation. Westbrook is coming off an injury as well and Jaime.....let's just say might keep putting off a procedure that needs to be done.

The young guns might be in full force by the ASB. Lynn, Rosenthal and Miller might be up in there. It doesn't bode well for our playoff chances if we can't get 25 starts each from both Westbrook and Garcia.

Mo needs to cover his arse here because the fans won't be brainwashed. So I hope he knows what he's doing.

 Suggested U. of Illinois mascots

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Posted: 2/5/2013 8:28 PM

Re: Mo press conference today 


Just say no to Lohse. He isn't worth the pick. Besides we can't afford him anyway if we still have to pay Carp 12.5.
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Posted: 2/5/2013 8:43 PM

Re: Mo press conference today 



GScottAR wrote: Just say no to Lohse. He isn't worth the pick. Besides we can't afford him anyway if we still have to pay Carp 12.5.
I don't agree. A draft pick is an unknown commodity where as Kyle Lohse is a known commodity.

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 2/5/2013 8:52 PM

Re: Mo press conference today 




---------------------------------------------
--- GScottAR wrote:

Just say no to Lohse. He isn't worth the pick. Besides we can't afford him anyway if we still have to pay Carp 12.5.

---------------------------------------------

Am i incorrect in thinking that if they put carp on the 15 then 60 day dl they can recover a large portion of thr contract via their ins policy against his contract?
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Posted: 2/5/2013 9:04 PM

Re: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


They will end up getting a small portion of his contract covered.

btw I agree with cardsnation. The safer bet would be kyle but unless he comes down a bit its not a realistic deal.

 Suggested U. of Illinois mascots

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Posted: 2/5/2013 9:38 PM

Re: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


I go back and forth with bringing back Lohse.... however Westy, and Garcia are big question marks...Lynn manning up again is less than for sure...Wainwright even can be counted on to be steady and perhaps Cy Young level but even he isnt a lock...not that this was much different with Carp in the rotation btu at least with him we knew we had an extra bullet

Miller could be put in...but what he will give is unknown... Kelly is more a filler and Rosenthal seems an option but again untested in the rotation...

im usually not one for signing FA's, but Lohse had a great last year and would be a steady presence

also, as much as we may get a good pick for him earlier...he may only deliver a compensation...plus this draft is supposedly a down class

I dunno...Beltran and Furcal are win now type of players....i wouldnt want to waste that year on an iffy rotation...if he were not here i would be fine with Taveras out there and consider this a "young" year...not really rebuilding, more developing year...and could still be a solid high upside team

Lohse maybe on a 3 year contract might be fine... or as someone mentioned perhaps now is when we deal for an ace...our farm will never be considered better

2013:
Waino
Garcia
Westy
Lynn
sign Lohse/ Miller

Rosenthal, Wacha, and Kelly waiting

It's not a bad looking rotation...but question marks up and down

if we did go with Lohse for 3 years (and re-sign Waino) it woudl look something like this for 2014/15

2014/15:
Waino
Lohse
Garcia
Lynn
Miller

Would we really want to wait that long for Rosie and Wacha, not to mention Martinez?

2 year deal for Lohse might be the best we could give without a big trade or really slowing down those 3 SPs

I dunno...i think we gotta go with the kids....and hope for the best...now if we do a big trade of prospects for a premiere young SS...that could change things

gotta imagine Moz is thinking about this right now...if we could get a Profar or Machado...or Tulo (though finances would be different)... we could buy Lohse to fill the gap for rotation depth while the kid SS is cheap....that gives time for Beltran and  Furcal's money to go away... i dunno...

would Miller + Kelly + Adams + Jenkins + G. Garcia get us one of them?

Taveras, Rosy, Wong should be untouchable IMO... 

Colorado seems like they need pitching bad...i dunno...tough decisions now for the management... but id guess we go to ST with no changes and Rosy and Miller battling for the last rotation spot...

Just seems like we have about 2 problems to the SP depth...an injury, bad performance, age... thins us out in the pen as well...nevertheless...
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Posted: 2/5/2013 10:07 PM

Re: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


Since we appear to have more talent than we have roster spots for, I would be willing to overpay for Profar. But not as much as what you are proposing. He might be a great acquisition for us, but he's still unproven. If Miller becomes the ace that many think he will be, he will be at least equal to whatever the value of Profar is.

It sure seems like Texas will have to move Profar or Andrus. I can't see Kinsler playing first or outfield. The more I think about it, the less likely I would be to trade Miller for Andrus. You only have him for two years before you have to start dealing with Boras, and in the end you wind up paying what Boras thinks is fair, not what you think is fair. I just don't know if I would give up Miller for that future scenario.
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Posted: 2/5/2013 10:51 PM

Re: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 



mudville wrote: Since we appear to have more talent than we have roster spots for, I would be willing to overpay for Profar. But not as much as what you are proposing. He might be a great acquisition for us, but he's still unproven. If Miller becomes the ace that many think he will be, he will be at least equal to whatever the value of Profar is.

It sure seems like Texas will have to move Profar or Andrus. I can't see Kinsler playing first or outfield. The more I think about it, the less likely I would be to trade Miller for Andrus. You only have him for two years before you have to start dealing with Boras, and in the end you wind up paying what Boras thinks is fair, not what you think is fair. I just don't know if I would give up Miller for that future scenario.
With Cards young pitching depth and virtually nothing at SS in the organization i would do Miller for Profar w/o any hesitation. Both are top talents with very little experience so no one knows for sure who will be the better player But this club needs a young SS far, far more than a right handed pitcher. Not even close! That being said if we could get Andrus for Miller i would gas up the car and drive Shelby to Arlington myself. Free of charge of course.

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 2/6/2013 5:49 AM

Re: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


I feel terrible about Carp.  I wish him well.frown


I still don’t see Lohse (who I still like) coming back.

Even if the Cardinals wanted to sign him, they would only want to do so on a one year deal.  I still believe Lohse will get a three year deal from someone (Brewers?).  For the Cardinals, losing the draft pick wouldn’t be a big deal.  If they sign him to a one year deal, there is a chance that he will qualify for a draft pick compensation next year (again it will take another qualifying offer).  But why would Lohse consider being put in the same situation next season, unless he gets absolutely no interest from another team this off-season (in which case the Cardinals wouldn’t get the draft pick this year anyway).  So I say so long Lohse, and thanks for three great seasons.


If Westbrook and Garcia are healthy the Cardinals are still in very good shape in the rotation and don’t need help from outside the organization.  The Cardinals would still have three high ceiling pitchers (Kelly, Rosenthal, and Miller) competing for one rotation spot.  I would worry about the number of starter innings having two (three if you count Garcia) young pitchers in the rotation.  My proposal would be to rotate Kelly, Rosenthal, and Miller between the rotation, bullpen, and Memphis.  At the end of each month, I would rotate the one from Memphis to become the starter, the starter would go to the bullpen (to save innings), and the reliever would go to the Memphis rotation (to stretch out).  So for example:

 

April

May

June

July

August

September

Kelly

STL Starter

STL Reliever

MEM Starter

STL Starter

STL Reliever

STL Reliever

Rosenthal

STL Reliever

MEM Starter

STL Starter

STL Reliever

MEM Starter

STL Starter

Miller

MEM Starter

STL Starter

STL Reliever

MEM Starter

STL Starter

STL Reliever

 

 

As for Profar for Miller, last year it may have been possible to get Profar for Miller (and small change), but in the last season Profar’s value went up and Miller’s went down.  This year it may be possible to get Profar for Taveras (and change) and I would like the Cardinals to make that trade.


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St. Louis(56),NYY(51),BOS(45),SFG(33),PHI(27),DET(25),LAA(21),TEX(18),ARI(16),LAD(14),TB-ATL-HOU-OAK(13),CHW(12),FLA(11),COL-CLE(8),MIL-MIN(6),CHC(6),NYM(6),SEA(4),PIT-BAL(3),CIN-WAS(2),SD(1),TOR-KC(0)

Last edited 2/6/2013 6:02 AM by Oqie11

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Posted: 2/6/2013 6:28 AM

RE: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


I wonder if Gast can be this year's Joe Kelly? Both fast risers who struggled with a promotion. (Kelly to AA in 2011, Gast to AAA in 2012). I know what you're likely thinking, but this time last year nobody was talking about Kelly either.
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Posted: 2/6/2013 7:01 AM

Re: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


The thing that really worries me in this whole situation is Garcia, we can't count on him at all having heard no legitimately good news about him.  I wouldn't go more than a yr on Loshe, which I know is a tough demand, but is also reasonable to believe possible with the current lack of interest.  It would be awfully tough to ask the young guys to fill Garcia and Carpenter's spots, b/c there's a very likely possibility that that will be the case
"You wait for a strike, then you knock the **** out of it." -Stan Musial
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Posted: 2/6/2013 7:40 AM

RE: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


I dont know if any player could pry Profar away from Rangers at this point. I tend to think the only option for a premium SS would be Tulo.. Which would seem to be more of a contract dump by Rockies.. Tulo's contract has a clause that stipulates he can be traded only once. I would doubt Cards would entertain taking on such a huge contract in the end..

But hey want kind of ST would it be without a season ending injury to a starting pitcher for the Cards... Thats why I laugh at Reds fans acting like it so easy for teams to get 161 starts out of 5 starters.. Cards have only done it once in recent memory 2005...

Last edited 2/6/2013 7:41 AM by Teufelshunde4

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Posted: 2/6/2013 8:17 AM

RE: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


Suppose we had Andrus at short now. Would you trade Andrus for Profar even up? Probably not.

I don't see how Texas can keep Profar at AAA all year, and they don't have a place for him on their active roster. They need pitching and they need a hitter to take up some of the slack from the loss of Hamilton. If Miller and Adams for Profar isn't enough, then best of luck to them. We can compete this year with what we have, and we can address any concerns we have concerning our middle infield next offseason.

The math simply doesn't work for Tulowitski. He makes too much money. There are injury concerns with him, also. Then, with all the talk about PED's lately, you have to wonder.
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Posted: 2/6/2013 9:05 AM

Re: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


I think the concerns about Garcia are perfectly legitimate.  I'll be shocked if he pitches more than a handful of games this season.

Westbrook is a different concern - but it's not his health I'm concerned about.  His injury last season was an oblique, which is kind of a freak injury and not arm or shoulder related.  He'll be able to give us 160-180 IP as the #4 or #5 starter; we're just not quite sure how good those IP will be.

However, for the record, since we got him, in 2 1/3 seasons, he's gone 29-24, 4.18.  He was 69-69, 4.29 during his years in Cleveland.  He's thrown 433 IP in 73 games, all starts, for us, which works out to 5.93 IP per start.

No reason we can't expect similar results - a guy who can make 30 starts at not quite 6 IP per start while giving up, on average, a shade less than 3 runs.  (3 runs in 6 IP would be 4.50, which is higher than his career ERA with us.)

He's no ace, but he should be perfectly OK as a #4 or #5 starter; I'd be happy with, say, 12 wins and a 4.20 ERA out of him.
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Posted: 2/6/2013 11:51 AM

Re: Mo press conference - Chris Carpenter out 


Another option would be to trade for Bud Norris. It probably wouldn't take much to get him.
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