My response to that argument is that Bonds would not be the all-time home run champion or the single season home run champion without the PEDs.  If the writer's believe otherwise, they will elect him to the HOF.  I don't and I wouldn't!

CoolPapaBell wrote:

How do you leave out the all time home run king/single season home run king and a guy with 354 wins and 7 Cy Youngs?  I agree that they are both douchebags, but so was Ty Cobb by all accounts.  You can say that they were cheaters, but so was anyone who took "greenies" or scuffed/spit on a ball (Gaylord Perry, anyone?)  I just don't see how you can bury your head in the sand and act like these guys never played.  I can't stand either one of them, but I don't know how we can leave them out. And no one can explain to me how Craig Biggio did not get in.  Played cather, center field and second base as an above average defender, more doubles than any other right handed hitter ever, over 3,000 hits, 400 steals.  Boggles the mind.

Biggio as not an above average defender, he was in the top 5 in errors committed at his position 9 times. He has a negative career dWAR. He was only an AS because he played a weak position. He was never an AS while he played the OF.  He was in the top 10 in MVP voting only 3 times.

Zeile27 wrote:

CoolPapaBell wrote:

How do you leave out the all time home run king/single season home run king and a guy with 354 wins and 7 Cy Youngs?  I agree that they are both douchebags, but so was Ty Cobb by all accounts.  You can say that they were cheaters, but so was anyone who took "greenies" or scuffed/spit on a ball (Gaylord Perry, anyone?)  I just don't see how you can bury your head in the sand and act like these guys never played.  I can't stand either one of them, but I don't know how we can leave them out. And no one can explain to me how Craig Biggio did not get in.  Played cather, center field and second base as an above average defender, more doubles than any other right handed hitter ever, over 3,000 hits, 400 steals.  Boggles the mind.

Biggio as not an above average defender, he was in the top 5 in errors committed at his position 9 times. He has a negative career dWAR. He was only an AS because he played a weak position. He was never an AS while he played the OF.  He was in the top 10 in MVP voting only 3 times.

Careful bringing up facts that run contrary to the public opinion could lead to you being labeled a Biggio hater around here. Living in Houston i have followed Biggio for years and i think he belongs in the HOF. Not a first vote guy though. I think Bij gets in but i could see it taking several votes. Craig is a great guy by all accounts and was always helping with charities in the Houston area. I bring this up b/c there is definately a "good guy" v.s "bad guy' element to all of this. We root for Biggio to get in but not so much Bonds or Clemens. Roger by the way has also done a lot for charities but it is never mentioned.

mike87114 wrote: My response to that argument is that Bonds would not be the all-time home run champion or the single season home run champion without the PEDs.  If the writer's believe otherwise, they will elect him to the HOF.  I don't and I wouldn't!

Right - without the PED's, Bonds probably would have only hit 500 homers.  Of course, that probably would have been enough - but if you believe Griffey's story (which he quickly recanted when the firestorm started) Bonds couldn't handle McGwire and Sosa getting all the publicity in 1998 and that's when he started juicing.

I still think, BTW, that there is still a difference between Bonds/Sosa and McGwire in terms of intent.  The former two clearly juiced to increase their power and performance, which is why Bonds never hit more than 39 HR before the juice and Sosa went from a skinny 15-HR kid to the only guy ever to hit 60 more than twice.

McGwire was skinny too but always had that power - hitting 49 HR as a rookie in 1987 - and I suspect his reason for juicing had more to do with trying to stay on the field (he missed a lot of time in 1993 and 1994) than trying to increase his power.  It's interesting, I think, that after he stopped taking the andro and whatever else he took, his condition quickly broke down.

Is this an excuse?  No, but I do think the circumstances were different for McGwire.

As for Clemens - if you look at his record, he was clearly struggling from 1993-96, then all of a sudden takes off and wins 4 CYA's between the ages of 34 and 41. He was at 192 wins though 1996, and minus the juice probably would have topped out around 240-250, which might have been enough - but I guess that wasn't enough for him.

On another note Cobb will be airing on MLB at 6:30 CT on Monday evening. Starts at 6pm with a Costas piece about the life of Ty Cobb. I like the fact that it airs at a time when people are debating the character of some of our times greatest stars. The whole idea that bad character guys and cheaters should not be allowed entrance into the HOF is a little off base to me b/c that ship has already sailed. It is not just Cobb by a long shot either. many of the early day heroes where reportedly nasty, racist, bullies. You could argue they are just products of their time and culture but doesn't that also have to apply to the starts of the 90's and 2000's?

Trying to interpret circumstances and intent is nothing more than speculation. It doesn't change the bottom line.

In my opinion, the Hall needs to come to grips with how they want the voters to consider the steroid era. Even that won't stop the disagreements, but it sure would help matters.

cardinalnationhouston wrote: It is not just Cobb by a long shot either. many of the early day heroes where reportedly nasty, racist, bullies. You could argue they are just products of their time and culture but doesn't that also have to apply to the starts of the 90's and 2000's?

You raise a great question CNH. The big difference in the character issue between a guy like Ty Cobb and a guy like Barry Bonds, is that Bonds' character "flaw" if you will directly impacted his ability to play baseball. You can with a high degree of confidence directly connect Bonds and the other 'roid guys character issue to their career baseball statistics.

Cobb's character on the other hand, was not so much baseball/stat related, but more social-environment related.

Now there is something to your comment that the steroid guys were also a victim of their social environment, where to keep up with the competition they had to use steroids. But we can't get away from the fact that it impacted their performance at least in one area, and that is the home run.

Diverting a bit, I'm not sure Clemens got the same bang out juicing as steroids seemed to mainly skew the home run. What we'll never know though, is how much benefit they had on a player's ability to stay off the disabled list, as well as combat the natural loss of talent with age. There most likely is some padding of Clemens' numbers due to being able to pitch effectively at the major league level past the age he would have had he not juiced. But again, we'll never know and cannot put any sort of quantifier on it.

bicyclemike wrote:

cardinalnationhouston wrote: It is not just Cobb by a long shot either. many of the early day heroes where reportedly nasty, racist, bullies. You could argue they are just products of their time and culture but doesn't that also have to apply to the starts of the 90's and 2000's?

You raise a great question CNH. The big difference in the character issue between a guy like Ty Cobb and a guy like Barry Bonds, is that Bonds' character "flaw" if you will directly impacted his ability to play baseball. You can with a high degree of confidence directly connect Bonds and the other 'roid guys character issue to their career baseball statistics.

Cobb's character on the other hand, was not so much baseball/stat related, but more social-environment related.

Now there is something to your comment that the steroid guys were also a victim of their social environment, where to keep up with the competition they had to use steroids. But we can't get away from the fact that it impacted their performance at least in one area, and that is the home run.

Diverting a bit, I'm not sure Clemens got the same bang out juicing as steroids seemed to mainly skew the home run. What we'll never know though, is how much benefit they had on a player's ability to stay off the disabled list, as well as combat the natural loss of talent with age. There most likely is some padding of Clemens' numbers due to being able to pitch effectively at the major league level past the age he would have had he not juiced. But again, we'll never know and cannot put any sort of quantifier on it.

I totally agree. The odd thing here is that should this fact not cause people to speculate about the Biggios and Ripkens of baseball that had incredible longevity and were real Ironmen? I am not saying they did Juice just that the only indicator people seem to recognize is Home runs.

ballfive wrote: Cheaters don't belong in the Hall of Fame, nor do they belong in record books asterisk or not. Were they great players without steroids? Probably, but we will never know that for sure because they chose to cheat their way into the record books.

Players cheated all throughout baseball history and several of them are in the HOF and there are even worse character issue guys in the HOF right now.

Domeboys wrote: Trying to interpret circumstances and intent is nothing more than speculation. It doesn't change the bottom line.

In my opinion, the Hall needs to come to grips with how they want the voters to consider the steroid era. Even that won't stop the disagreements, but it sure would help matters.

I would also like to see MLB come to grips with the records these players established.  In so doing, they could offer context to the HOF and the writers who are in a tough position.  If Lance Armstrong and various track & field athletes can be stripped of their records for PEDs, then that option remains open to MLB.

I really think the onus is on MLB to speak to this era.  I know they have let the records stand but I am not sure that doing so has benefitted anyone other than them.

Never lacking an opinion, Lance Berkman says no PED users should be allowed in the Hall - period.

One of the many things that make the issue of steroids and it's effect on the game tough, is it seemed to have different effects on different guys. And that makes sense. Like most any supplement, some people's bodies really benefit from it, and others do not see all that much of a difference.

It could be, and probably is a fact, that a lot of guys in the '90s and early 2000s 'roided up, but it did not do much for them. They might have looked good in the uniform, but did not suddenly become Babe Ruth like McGwire, Sosa and Bonds did.

As an exception, Brady Anderson was a guy that really bulked up and out of no where hit 50 homers one year. But there are probably a bunch of guys that tried it and still were average at best. For the most part, guys that were already great became almost unreal, and everyone else stayed about the same with a few exceptions.

Sosa is sort of in the Brady Anderson situation where he probably would not have been anything special without the chemical enhancement. I'd have a tough time voting him in the Hall, but could definitely vote for McGwire, Bonds and Clemens as they were great players anyway. The one caveat with McGwire is that you wonder if he would have stayed healthy enough to get to 500 homers without the juice.

You also have to wonder if using steroids shortened McGwire's career and his knee(s) broke down and caused him to retire relatively young.

I remember that Ken Caminiti, a self admitted juicer had his health break down supposedly from steroid use and died at age 41.

Bonds health also deteriorated pretty fast as well.

SoonerinNC wrote: You also have to wonder if using steroids shortened McGwire's career and his knee(s) broke down and caused him to retire relatively young.

I remember that Ken Caminiti, a self admitted juicer had his health break down supposedly from steroid use and died at age 41.

Bonds health also deteriorated pretty fast as well.

I dunno about that. At age 41, Bonds hit 26 homers and played in 130 games. The next year, he hit 28 and played in 126 games. He probably would have played longer had any team been willing to take the PR hit to sign him.

As a non-juiced point of comparison, Stan Musial also played his last two years at ages 41 and 42. He appeared in 135 and 124 games, respectively.

SoonerinNC wrote: You also have to wonder if using steroids shortened McGwire's career and his knee(s) broke down and caused him to retire relatively young.

I remember that Ken Caminiti, a self admitted juicer had his health break down supposedly from steroid use and died at age 41.

Bonds health also deteriorated pretty fast as well.

I was thinking the same thing about Mcgwire. Fact is we just don't know about he and the many other players involved. Bet you could find evidence both ways. I am not sure i would say Bonds broke down quickly although i think his injuries were to the knee amongst other things. How much ot that is steroids and how much is Bonds diving and sliding all those years. At the end he was mostly just a hitter but earlier on Bonds hustled. I think b/c this is a fairly new issue it will take years before proper studies are complete as to exactly how much they help and what the long term affects are. As far as Caminiti goes while he was a very nice person he also had his drug demons. It was not just steroids with him by a long shot.

cardinalnationhouston wrote: 
As far as Caminiti goes while he was a very nice person he also had his drug demons. It was not just steroids with him by a long shot.

A bit off topic, but it was the same with Darrell Porter. He found strength in Christianity for awhile and seemed to have conquered his demons, but fell back into it and eventually they cost him his life at a relatively young age.

bicyclemike wrote:

cardinalnationhouston wrote: 
As far as Caminiti goes while he was a very nice person he also had his drug demons. It was not just steroids with him by a long shot.

A bit off topic, but it was the same with Darrell Porter. He found strength in Christianity for awhile and seemed to have conquered his demons, but fell back into it and eventually they cost him his life at a relatively young age.

I never knew this, how did he die?

grayssportsalmanac wrote:

bicyclemike wrote:

cardinalnationhouston wrote: 
As far as Caminiti goes while he was a very nice person he also had his drug demons. It was not just steroids with him by a long shot.

A bit off topic, but it was the same with Darrell Porter. He found strength in Christianity for awhile and seemed to have conquered his demons, but fell back into it and eventually they cost him his life at a relatively young age.

I never knew this, how did he die?

I believe he got blitzed out on cocaine, and drove his car into a tree at high speed (so to speak). A tragedy.

bicyclemike wrote:

grayssportsalmanac wrote:

bicyclemike wrote:

cardinalnationhouston wrote: 
As far as Caminiti goes while he was a very nice person he also had his drug demons. It was not just steroids with him by a long shot.

A bit off topic, but it was the same with Darrell Porter. He found strength in Christianity for awhile and seemed to have conquered his demons, but fell back into it and eventually they cost him his life at a relatively young age.

I never knew this, how did he die?

I believe he got blitzed out on cocaine, and drove his car into a tree at high speed (so to speak). A tragedy.

I'd have to dig out the story, but my recollection is that he did indeed have an accident as described, but died afterwards of a heart attack while he was trying to pull the car out of the ditch it had wound up in.