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Re: Hall of Fame voting
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Posted: 1/9/2013 3:28 PM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
mike87114 wrote: I hope so but let's see what happens in the years ahead.
I thought I was in the minority on this issue so I am pleasantly surprised that 2/3 of the writers seem to agree.
Next year there will be Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Mussina, and Kent as first time eligibles. I assume the first three make it and, hopefully, Biggio will get enough to make it. Since its his last year, I figure Morris will either make it or get real close.
Have the writers ever elected five in the same year outside of the first ballot back in 1936? The first two are locks. if they put Mike Mussina in the HOF they would lose all credibility with me. Its getting a little ridiculous that we are talking about guys like Mussina and Lofton getting in.
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- ballfive
 - Memphis Redbird
- 955 posts this site
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Posted: 1/9/2013 5:37 PM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
Cheaters don't belong in the Hall of Fame, nor do they belong in record books asterisk or not. Were they great players without steroids? Probably, but we will never know that for sure because they chose to cheat their way into the record books.
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Posted: 1/9/2013 6:06 PM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
ballfive wrote: Cheaters don't belong in the Hall of Fame, nor do they belong in record books asterisk or not. Were they great players without steroids? Probably, but we will never know that for sure because they chose to cheat their way into the record books. Does that go for crackhead Tim Raines too or is it just steroids?
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Posted: 1/9/2013 9:12 PM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
PEDs = Performance Enhancing Drugs
These guys used these drugs to enhance their own performance, make millions, and create hollow records. In the process, they stole from the integrity of the competition and the integrity of the game. They got their ROI when they played and I, for one, see no reason to honor them further with baseball's ultimate recognition.
KBoyer14HOF
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Posted: 1/9/2013 10:12 PM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
Steroids do not allow you to hit a baseball. I honestly think they benefit pitchers more than hitters b/c what they do is allow muscles to regroup better. Also they would need to go back and disqualify anyone that used the greenies, bennies and reds. That only seems fair to me. guys in the early days would have had cocaine in their systems from Coca cola and you can bet your life they drank plenty of it. My point to this is there are already cheaters in the hall although i can't prove it. Just like you cannot prove that Bonds or Clemens did steroids. Mcgwire gets screwed b/c he manned up and admitted it. This disqualifies Andy also IMO. These were great players with or without the steroids and we will never know how much their numbers were bumped up by PED's. So know one can prove these two even did it and if they did we have no idea the effect it had on their numbers. How can people say they do not belong with a straight face is beyond me. 
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Posted: 1/9/2013 10:14 PM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
And for the record i cannot stand either one of these punks. You will be hard pressed to find two bigger creeps anywhere.
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- ballfive
- Memphis Redbird
- 955 posts this site
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Posted: 1/9/2013 11:13 PM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
ballfive wrote: Cheaters don't belong in the Hall of Fame, nor do they belong in record books asterisk or not. Were they great players without steroids? Probably, but we will never know that for sure because they chose to cheat their way into the record books. Does that go for crackhead Tim Raines too or is it just steroids? I wasn't aware that Crack built muscle mass to ENHANCE PERFORMANCE. |
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Posted: 1/9/2013 11:33 PM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
ballfive wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
ballfive wrote: Cheaters don't belong in the Hall of Fame, nor do they belong in record books asterisk or not. Were they great players without steroids? Probably, but we will never know that for sure because they chose to cheat their way into the record books. Does that go for crackhead Tim Raines too or is it just steroids? I wasn't aware that Crack built muscle mass to ENHANCE PERFORMANCE. So he gets a pass? Don't you see that this is part of the problem i have with this whole thing? Are there definite studies that prove cocaine is not a performance enhancer? Doc Ellis threw a no hitter on LSD. Could you not argue that LSD is a performance enhancer? Can we prove that steroids helped Bonds or Clemens? The answer is no because we cannot even prove they did it. Like in the O.J Simpson case it is not what we know but what can we prove. In my opinion there are probably already cheaters in the Hal of fame. These guys got a pass b/c it was not yet against the rules. I do see what you guys are saying and i can totally understand why you feel that way i just don't think you can hold them out without proof. And it better be strong evidence too considering the importance of this award on the players, fans and baseball in general. To me this is one of those subjects were both sides can raise good points.
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Posted: 1/9/2013 11:51 PM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
This will sound terrible, but Darrell Porter never hit as well once he got clean. So one may infer that cocaine is, at least in the short term, a performance enhancer along the same lines as greenies. cardinalnationhouston wrote:
ballfive wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
ballfive wrote: Cheaters don't belong in the Hall of Fame, nor do they belong in record books asterisk or not. Were they great players without steroids? Probably, but we will never know that for sure because they chose to cheat their way into the record books. Does that go for crackhead Tim Raines too or is it just steroids? I wasn't aware that Crack built muscle mass to ENHANCE PERFORMANCE. So he gets a pass? Don't you see that this is part of the problem i have with this whole thing? Are there definite studies that prove cocaine is not a performance enhancer? Doc Ellis threw a no hitter on LSD. Could you not argue that LSD is a performance enhancer? Can we prove that steroids helped Bonds or Clemens? The answer is no because we cannot even prove they did it. Like in the O.J Simpson case it is not what we know but what can we prove. In my opinion there are probably already cheaters in the Hal of fame. These guys got a pass b/c it was not yet against the rules. I do see what you guys are saying and i can totally understand why you feel that way i just don't think you can hold them out without proof. And it better be strong evidence too considering the importance of this award on the players, fans and baseball in general. To me this is one of those subjects were both sides can raise good points. |
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Posted: 1/10/2013 12:49 AM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
Jmodene1 wrote: This will sound terrible, but Darrell Porter never hit as well once he got clean. So one may infer that cocaine is, at least in the short term, a performance enhancer along the same lines as greenies.
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
ballfive wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
ballfive wrote: Cheaters don't belong in the Hall of Fame, nor do they belong in record books asterisk or not. Were they great players without steroids? Probably, but we will never know that for sure because they chose to cheat their way into the record books. Does that go for crackhead Tim Raines too or is it just steroids? I wasn't aware that Crack built muscle mass to ENHANCE PERFORMANCE. So he gets a pass? Don't you see that this is part of the problem i have with this whole thing? Are there definite studies that prove cocaine is not a performance enhancer? Doc Ellis threw a no hitter on LSD. Could you not argue that LSD is a performance enhancer? Can we prove that steroids helped Bonds or Clemens? The answer is no because we cannot even prove they did it. Like in the O.J Simpson case it is not what we know but what can we prove. In my opinion there are probably already cheaters in the Hal of fame. These guys got a pass b/c it was not yet against the rules. I do see what you guys are saying and i can totally understand why you feel that way i just don't think you can hold them out without proof. And it better be strong evidence too considering the importance of this award on the players, fans and baseball in general. To me this is one of those subjects were both sides can raise good points. I don't think it sounds terrible. Mr. Porters story is really tragic but you are correct in what you say. I can understand why people are angry at these people for putting us in the position of having to even question their legitimacy. I don't feel bad for any of them all though i cannot say i would have done it different. Look at Lance Armstong and all the fans he has disapointed. We may not have the right to require other people to live up to our own standards of a hero but that is just how it is. I cannot blame anyone for being disapointed in the way this all came down, i just don't think it can be proven. The writers i believe will stall on putting Bonds or Clemens in with the hope that the years bring the real truth to light. Either way it is the fans that really loose in all of this IMO. 
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Posted: 1/10/2013 9:29 AM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
mike87114 wrote: I hope so but let's see what happens in the years ahead.
I thought I was in the minority on this issue so I am pleasantly surprised that 2/3 of the writers seem to agree.
Next year there will be Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Mussina, and Kent as first time eligibles. I assume the first three make it and, hopefully, Biggio will get enough to make it. Since its his last year, I figure Morris will either make it or get real close.
Have the writers ever elected five in the same year outside of the first ballot back in 1936? The first two are locks. if they put Mike Mussina in the HOF they would lose all credibility with me. Its getting a little ridiculous that we are talking about guys like Mussina and Lofton getting in. CNH I hate to tell you this but if jack morris is close to hof I dont see how mussina doesnt get closer...his career stat line is simply better all around.. I dont believe either should be in the hall... |
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Posted: 1/10/2013 10:13 AM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
No way Morris should be enshrined. He was a very very nice pitcher, but not Hall worthy. Granted, his career era took a pretty big hit by getting absolutely shelled in his final two seasons, but it wasn't exactly like someone held a gun to his head forcing him on out to toe the rubber every 5 games near the end of his career. Besides, by many accounts Morris was a horses arse.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 10:49 AM
RE: Hall of Fame voting
Biggio, .281/.363/.796, will likely get in soon, but its not outrageous that he didn't on the first ballot as I've seen some people say around the web. Lots of career .280 hitters with pretty good power and a good glove don't ever get in. Contrast with Larry Walker, .313/.400/.965, but with too much down time to run up the big career totals. What sets Biggio apart is staying healthy so he could stay on the field and run up the numbers over time. Perhaps some writers wonder about that in a PED era player. The whole PED thing is really a shame.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 11:00 AM
RE: Hall of Fame voting
When you consider that Sandberg and Alomar, among 2B eligibles, didn't make it on the first ballot, there is not really an issue with Biggio. I am confident that he will make it, mabe next year. I saw him this morning on the MLB Network and he seemed to understand the situation and respected it.
It is also worth noting that Joe Dimaggio and Yogi Berra, among many others, didn't get in in their first year of eligibility, I think it took three years for Dimaggio?
When you think about the HOF vote in a historical context, we've come a long way from Ted Williams to Jim Rice, though, and not in such a good way.
KBoyer14HOF
Last edited 1/10/2013 12:17 PM by mike87114
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Posted: 1/10/2013 11:01 AM
RE: Hall of Fame voting
It may not be fair, but I tend to lump Biggio with a Robin Yount, another 3,000 hit player with a long, generally healthy career. Yount's career line was comparable at .285/.342/.430/.772. I went back and checked and Yount squeaked into the Hall in his first year, in 1999. His total of 77.5 percent was the lowest for any first-ballot player to be inducted, at least up to that time. (Edit: Yount's two MVPs are a differentiator.)
I guess I am saying that I am not disturbed that Biggio did not make it in his first ballot, but expect he will get the necessary votes soon. I won't be upset about that, either.
Last edited 1/10/2013 11:04 AM by Domeboys
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Posted: 1/10/2013 2:10 PM
RE: Hall of Fame voting
This thread is probably dying out but this article from Scientific American is an interesting read and bears on the subject of the HOF and PED users: http://www.scientificamerican....D122BD4D1AE028BI don't agree with the counter conclusions but I find it fascinating how the PEDs could alter one's hitting ability. KBoyer14HOF
Last edited 1/10/2013 2:14 PM by mike87114
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- ballfive
- Memphis Redbird
- 955 posts this site
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Posted: 1/11/2013 12:23 AM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
ballfive wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
ballfive wrote: Cheaters don't belong in the Hall of Fame, nor do they belong in record books asterisk or not. Were they great players without steroids? Probably, but we will never know that for sure because they chose to cheat their way into the record books. Does that go for crackhead Tim Raines too or is it just steroids? I wasn't aware that Crack built muscle mass to ENHANCE PERFORMANCE. So he gets a pass? Don't you see that this is part of the problem i have with this whole thing? Are there definite studies that prove cocaine is not a performance enhancer? Doc Ellis threw a no hitter on LSD. Could you not argue that LSD is a performance enhancer? Can we prove that steroids helped Bonds or Clemens? The answer is no because we cannot even prove they did it. Like in the O.J Simpson case it is not what we know but what can we prove. In my opinion there are probably already cheaters in the Hal of fame. These guys got a pass b/c it was not yet against the rules. I do see what you guys are saying and i can totally understand why you feel that way i just don't think you can hold them out without proof. And it better be strong evidence too considering the importance of this award on the players, fans and baseball in general. To me this is one of those subjects were both sides can raise good points. I never said he should get a pass. PED users knowingly cheat. Athletes who abuse other drugs and alcohol are not necessarily cheaters, they are just stupid and weak. It is all about the choices that are made in life and none of the above are good choices. It is that simple.
Last edited 1/11/2013 12:25 AM by ballfive
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Posted: 1/11/2013 7:20 AM
RE: Hall of Fame voting
The HOF voting procedure was weird in the 40's and 50's, which is the main reason Dimaggio didn't get in right away. I'll have to dig out my copy of the James book on the HOF, but IIRC, the BBWAA was only voting every three years around that time. mike87114 wrote: When you consider that Sandberg and Alomar, among 2B eligibles, didn't make it on the first ballot, there is not really an issue with Biggio. I am confident that he will make it, mabe next year. I saw him this morning on the MLB Network and he seemed to understand the situation and respected it.
It is also worth noting that Joe Dimaggio and Yogi Berra, among many others, didn't get in in their first year of eligibility, I think it took three years for Dimaggio?
When you think about the HOF vote in a historical context, we've come a long way from Ted Williams to Jim Rice, though, and not in such a good way. |
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Posted: 1/11/2013 7:42 AM
RE: Hall of Fame voting
No, they voted annually. DiMaggio received 44.3 percent his first year in 1953, then 69.4 percent the next season, before making it with 88.8 percent in 1955.
Perhaps voters were artificially limited as to the number of players for whom they could vote or something like that. Edit: I checked and it looked to be the opposite. 83 different players received votes in 1953, so there was considerable dilution. There were a lot more "Aaron Sele" votes back then.
Last edited 1/11/2013 7:48 AM by Domeboys
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Posted: 1/11/2013 11:37 AM
Re: Hall of Fame voting
How do you leave out the all time home run king/single season home run king and a guy with 354 wins and 7 Cy Youngs? I agree that they are both douchebags, but so was Ty Cobb by all accounts. You can say that they were cheaters, but so was anyone who took "greenies" or scuffed/spit on a ball (Gaylord Perry, anyone?) I just don't see how you can bury your head in the sand and act like these guys never played. I can't stand either one of them, but I don't know how we can leave them out. And no one can explain to me how Craig Biggio did not get in. Played cather, center field and second base as an above average defender, more doubles than any other right handed hitter ever, over 3,000 hits, 400 steals. Boggles the mind. |
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