scadder21 wrote: 
I think periphrials are overrated when your comparing a power pitcher to a groundball sinker pitcher.  Obviously Garza will have better strikeout totals.  Also would you rather have a flyball guy at Wrigley or a sinker baller?

You obviously think peripherals are overrated because you didn't look at any before typing this out. They have roughly the same GB% on their careers, in fact Garza's was higher than Lohse's in both 2011 and 2012.

So you would rather take a guy who was good in 2011 and stunk it up in 2012 over someone who was one of the best pitchers in the NL during a 2 year period?

scadder21 wrote: So you would rather take a guy who was good in 2011 and stunk it up in 2012 over someone who was one of the best pitchers in the NL during a 2 year period?

Garza had an elbow problem in 2012. Since 2008 Garza has started more games, pitched more innings, has a lower ERA, better peripherals, is 5 years younger, throws an equal amount of ground-balls and has better stuff. Yeah, I'd take Garza. I don't buy Lohse's 2012 season as what's to come from him in the future. I think he'll pitch at his 2011 level in 2013 and exhibit a steady decline from there on. On the other hand Garza's best years are ahead of him.

Disagree but that's ok. That's what message boards are for.

scadder21 wrote: Disagree but that's ok. That's what message boards are for.

Yeah. That's the likely resolution of this discussion, disagreement. With CNH too. The only way I can see an argument for Lohse being the better pitcher is if you base the entire argument on 2012. I think there's problems with basing the entire argument on that one season.

Also can base it on the fact that he's having elbow issues. Which we don't know if that will lead to surgery. Lohse is over his injury and Garza is still injured correct? Or at least not 100 percent.

He had a stress reaction in his elbow. Not considered a serious injury. He's been cleared and started an offseason throwing program. If anything Lohse is the pitcher with the much more extensive injury history. He's also older. I'd be more wary about Lohse's health than Garza's.

Edit: Garza didn't need surgery from what I understand. Essentially a stress reaction is caused from bones in the elbow bumping and creating a stress fracture.

And you don't see that as a reoccurring issue?

stlcards5129 wrote:

scadder21 wrote: Disagree but that's ok. That's what message boards are for.

Yeah. That's the likely resolution of this discussion, disagreement. With CNH too. The only way I can see an argument for Lohse being the better pitcher is if you base the entire argument on 2012. I think there's problems with basing the entire argument on that one season.

The stats and periphrials do matter but they are not the only determination in value, at least to me. The situations are unique to each pitcher so it is impossible to use stats as te only factor. Ballpark,defense,team philosophy and even the division are other factors that these numbers do not show. Also one city or club may be a more difficult enviroment than another. These numbers tell a big part but not all of the story. Comparing guys on the same staff by the numbers is a lot different b/c they pitched under basically the same factors. Garza has been a bit demonstrative more than once or twice allthough most of that was in Tampa. Maybe he out grows it. The kid has a great arm so if he puts it together in Chicago he will be trouble. For the record i think Lohse will miss St.Louis and his E.R.A should take a hit. He has become very solid though and you know what you are getting with Kyle.

Edit: omitted the word same.

scadder21 wrote: And you don't see that as a reoccurring issue?

Why would I? He's demonstrated that he's a durable pitcher. There's no structural damage. I've never heard of any pitcher's careers being ruined at 28 over a stress fracture.

Well two bones rubbing together causing a stress reaction sounds like something chronic that will eventually need surgery to fix? Did he grow cartlidge back in the off season so the bones don't rub togethre?

stlcards5129 wrote:

scadder21 wrote: And you don't see that as a reoccurring issue?

Why would I? He's demonstrated that he's a durable pitcher. There's no structural damage. I've never heard of any pitcher's careers being ruined at 28 over a stress fracture.

Bones rubbing together sounds structural to me.  Sounds like cartilidge that has been worn down.

cardinalnationhouston wrote:
Garza has been a bit demonstrative more than once or twice allthough most of that was in Tampa. Maybe he out grows it. The kid has a great arm so if he puts it together in Chicago he will be trouble. For the record i think Lohse will miss St.Louis and his E.R.A should take a hit. He has become very solid though and you know what you are getting with Kyle.

What do you mean by this? I've never seen anything that would make me believe that. I think he's very fiery and intense on the mound. He definitely looks like he cares and he's into the game. I don't know anything about him in terms of a clubhouse guy. I have gotten the impression he wants out of Chicago. I don't think he's interested in being on a rebuilding team.

That being said. I think I'm gonna move on from this discussion. I'm sick of discussing a Cub and a former Cardinal. For the record I like Lohse better. I just think Garza is the better pitcher.

scadder21 wrote:

stlcards5129 wrote:

scadder21 wrote: And you don't see that as a reoccurring issue?

Why would I? He's demonstrated that he's a durable pitcher. There's no structural damage. I've never heard of any pitcher's careers being ruined at 28 over a stress fracture.

Bones rubbing together sounds structural to me.  Sounds like cartilidge that has been worn down.

It doesn't matter if it sounds structural to you. There are machines called MRIs and doctors who have said it's not structural...I'll take their word for it.

stlcards5129 wrote:

cardinalnationhouston wrote:
Garza has been a bit demonstrative more than once or twice allthough most of that was in Tampa. Maybe he out grows it. The kid has a great arm so if he puts it together in Chicago he will be trouble. For the record i think Lohse will miss St.Louis and his E.R.A should take a hit. He has become very solid though and you know what you are getting with Kyle.

What do you mean by this? I've never seen anything that would make me believe that. I think he's very fiery and intense on the mound. He definitely looks like he cares and he's into the game. I don't know anything about him in terms of a clubhouse guy. I have gotten the impression he wants out of Chicago. I don't think he's interested in being on a rebuilding team.

That being said. I think I'm gonna move on from this discussion. I'm sick of discussing a Cub and a former Cardinal. For the record I like Lohse better. I just think Garza is the better pitcher.

Then I think it's for sure that the Cubs get Lohse.  They sign him, don't give him a NTC and then trade Garza this year early in the year.  If he wants out and he had that injury last year they may want to trade him in case that he is in fact hurt.  It doesn't help the Cubs much holding onto him and risking him being hurt and not being able to trade him at the deadline again.

Cubs and Rangers are the finalists for Edwin Jackson, per MLBTR.

Whoever signs Edwin, it will be interesting to see how he responds to a 4 year contract, and how long he stays put.

KatieCubFan wrote: Cubs and Rangers are the finalists for Edwin Jackson, per MLBTR.

Ha!  I told you they would be interested in Jackson!

PadsFS wrote:

KatieCubFan wrote: Cubs and Rangers are the finalists for Edwin Jackson, per MLBTR.

Ha!  I told you they would be interested in Jackson!

Also in talks with Villanueva.

KatieCubFan wrote:

PadsFS wrote:

KatieCubFan wrote: Cubs and Rangers are the finalists for Edwin Jackson, per MLBTR.

Ha!  I told you they would be interested in Jackson!

Also in talks with Villanueva.

Sounds like he is signed.