scadder21 wrote: So Katie do the Cubs go after Lohse now and try to spend the money intended for Sanchez?

The Padres are supposedly interested in Jackson, but not if he wants a four-year deal as is rumored.

KatieCubFan wrote:

scadder21 wrote: So Katie do the Cubs go after Lohse now and try to spend the money intended for Sanchez?

I doubt it, too much on the wrong side of 30 for the Cubs to consider giving a long-term deal to.  Jackson maybe but I haven't heard anything (though the Sanchez thing was unexpected).  I hear Carlos Villanueva on a one year deal is a possibility.

KatieCubFan wrote: Surely you know the difference between rebuilding and buying a team.

scadder21 wrote:

KatieCubFan wrote:

scadder21 wrote: So Katie do the Cubs go after Lohse now and try to spend the money intended for Sanchez?

I doubt it, too much on the wrong side of 30 for the Cubs to consider giving a long-term deal to.  Jackson maybe but I haven't heard anything (though the Sanchez thing was unexpected).  I hear Carlos Villanueva on a one year deal is a possibility.

Well I think that Ricketts doesn't really want the full rebuild so they want a good pitcher through a few years.  I think that was the intent of Sanchez.  Lohse is a better pitcher than Sanchez and I figure the Cubs will just trade him in year 2 or 3 of his contract.  He knows the NL Central hitters.  I think it would be a smart move by the Cubs if they don't want to be as horrible as they probably will be this year.

PadsFS wrote:

scadder21 wrote:

KatieCubFan wrote:

scadder21 wrote: So Katie do the Cubs go after Lohse now and try to spend the money intended for Sanchez?

I doubt it, too much on the wrong side of 30 for the Cubs to consider giving a long-term deal to.  Jackson maybe but I haven't heard anything (though the Sanchez thing was unexpected).  I hear Carlos Villanueva on a one year deal is a possibility.

Well I think that Ricketts doesn't really want the full rebuild so they want a good pitcher through a few years.  I think that was the intent of Sanchez.  Lohse is a better pitcher than Sanchez and I figure the Cubs will just trade him in year 2 or 3 of his contract.  He knows the NL Central hitters.  I think it would be a smart move by the Cubs if they don't want to be as horrible as they probably will be this year.

I don't think it's all that good of a fit honestly. Lohse would not do well in that ballpark. His home ERA was 2.33 while the road ERA was 3.41.  His true talent was probably 3.41, plus he'll be older (34), plus he'll require multiple years plus his xFIP was even worse at 3.96. 

I'd easily guess he would have  a 3.50-4.00 ERA for the Cubs next year and get progressively worse from there.

I know Theo and co. would not be ok with losing a draft pick either. (which I think they would)

PadsFS wrote: I would take 29 year old Garza over Lohse, but then I see that 2.86 ERA this past year and can't believe how well Lohse did so you are right in that regard.

Anyway, I understand what you are saying about the Cubs, but Lohse doesn't fit with the whole draft pick and age issues.

Edwin Jackson or Carlos Villenueva make way more sense in that regard as did Anibal Sanchez.

stlcards5129 wrote:

PadsFS wrote: I would take 29 year old Garza over Lohse, but then I see that 2.86 ERA this past year and can't believe how well Lohse did so you are right in that regard.

Anyway, I understand what you are saying about the Cubs, but Lohse doesn't fit with the whole draft pick and age issues.

Edwin Jackson or Carlos Villenueva make way more sense in that regard as did Anibal Sanchez.

Garza is solidly better than Lohse (so is Sanchez). However he (Garza) did have a poor 2012, while Lohse had a career year. Whichever team signs Lohse will probably regret it by June when his ERA is closer to 4 than to 3. It's unreasonable to believe the man finally figured it out, especially when you look at his LOB%, FIP, XFIP and BABIP for the past 2 seasons. That said I hope the Cubs give him a 5 year deal.

I agree with scadder though in regards to the Cubs avoiding a total rebuild. I think the attempted signing of Sanchez shows that. Unfortunately I don't think the Cubs will pursue Loshe. Maybe if they were closer to competing, but I think the Cubs realize they won't be able to realistically compete with the Cards, Reds, Pirates and possibly the Brewers for the Division this year. I'm just assuming that the Cubs would like to increase fan interest a little for the 2013 season.

Jackson or Villanueva make a whole lot more sense compared to Lohse, he's just too old to contribute when this team is expected to be ready to really compete.

scadder21 wrote:
Lohse has been better than Garza during the time that Lohse has been healthy.

scadder21 wrote: I don't think that Garza was better in 2011. Lohse had a better ERA, with a lower WHIP. and only 10 less innings.

stlcards5129 wrote:

scadder21 wrote: I don't think that Garza was better in 2011. Lohse had a better ERA, with a lower WHIP. and only 10 less innings.

You need to double check that.

Lohse 2011 ERA 3.39
Garza 2011 ERA 3.32

Garza also had a substantially lower FIP and XFIP that year. Garza also had a much higher K rate.

cardinalnationhouston wrote: I would not trade Kyle Lohse for Garza ever.

That's just one of the many reasons why you're not a General Manager.

You need to get your head out of those retro stat sheets once in a while bro.

I prefer to use results when I decide which pitcher is better. If you want to use some subjective, un-quantifiable method to evaluate players that's your prerogative. If you're gonna attempt to use it an argument it just makes you look ignorant. Garza has better results it's incredibly apparent. Maybe you should look at each players track record before you ignorantly pipe in.   

Garza has very good stuff but is a little light between the ears.

There's no evidence of this. He's a little intense on the mound. He's done fairly well in high leverage situations. Can you give an example of what makes you think he's light between the ears?

I give him until July before he melts down under all the losing in Chicago.

Why?

Lohse on the other hand pitches better than his stuff would indicate

That's the area of Kyle's game where he's better than Garza. He has better control, that's it.

and is a warrior on the mound.

I've never felt that way when I've watched him pitch. Wainwright? Sure. Carpenter? Definitely. Lohse? meh. Garza? Sure.

Lohse was great in his three healthy years of his contract.

Lohse has been under contract for 5. Since 2008. Coincidentally that's the Year Garza became a full time starter. Every one of those years Garza has been either significantly better or equally as effective with 2012 as the exception(surprise that was the year Garza was hurt).

I cannot figure out why some people refuse to give Kyle his props.

You do this all the time. Why do you say things like this. I've never said Kyle was bad. All I have said is that Garza is better. I think Kyle is a solid pitcher.

We talked about Garza last year and it was about 50/50 on even wanting him in St.Louis.

I don't know where this is coming from. I don't think I'd want him considering the prospect cost it would take to get him. 

Garza may mature into a top line starter b/c his stuff is nasty but there is more to it than K rates and FIP.

Garza bests Lohse in every single statistically category except walks. Garza has better stuff, has a better track record of durability and he's significantly younger. I don't see this argument at all. Its there in the results. Garza is better, has performed better and has better pitches. If you don't want to use the results to determine who the better pitcher is, that's your prerogative.

If I need to get my head out stat sheets, you need to get your head out of these subjective, indeterminable things you like to use to evaluate players.

cardinalnationhouston wrote: I would not trade Kyle Lohse for Garza ever. You need to get your head out of those retro stat sheets once in a while bro. Garza has very good stuff but is a little light between the ears.I give him until July before he melts down under all the losing in Chicago. Lohse on the other hand pitches better than his stuff would indicate and is a warrior on the mound. Lohse was great in his three healthy years of his contract. I cannot figure out why some people refuse to give Kyle his props. We talked about Garza last year and it was about 50/50 on even wanting him in St.Louis. Garza may mature into a top line starter b/c his stuff is nasty but there is more to it than K rates and FIP.

stlcards5129 wrote:

cardinalnationhouston wrote: I would not trade Kyle Lohse for Garza ever.

That's just one of the many reasons why you're not a General Manager.

You need to get your head out of those retro stat sheets once in a while bro.

I prefer to use results when I decide which pitcher is better. If you want to use some subjective, un-quantifiable method to evaluate players that's your prerogative. If you're gonna attempt to use it an argument it just makes you look ignorant. Garza has better results it's incredibly apparent. Maybe you should look at each players track record before you ignorantly pipe in.   

Garza has very good stuff but is a little light between the ears.

There's no evidence of this. He's a little intense on the mound. He's done fairly well in high leverage situations. Can you give an example of what makes you think he's light between the ears?

I give him until July before he melts down under all the losing in Chicago.

Why?

Lohse on the other hand pitches better than his stuff would indicate

That's the area of Kyle's game where he's better than Garza. He has better control, that's it.

and is a warrior on the mound.

I've never felt that way when I've watched him pitch. Wainwright? Sure. Carpenter? Definitely. Lohse? meh. Garza? Sure.

Lohse was great in his three healthy years of his contract.

Lohse has been under contract for 5. Since 2008. Coincidentally that's the Year Garza became a full time starter. Every one of those years Garza has been either significantly better or equally as effective with 2012 as the exception(surprise that was the year Garza was hurt).

I cannot figure out why some people refuse to give Kyle his props.

You do this all the time. Why do you say things like this. I've never said Kyle was bad. All I have said is that Garza is better. I think Kyle is a solid pitcher.

We talked about Garza last year and it was about 50/50 on even wanting him in St.Louis.

I don't know where this is coming from. I don't think I'd want him considering the prospect cost it would take to get him. 

Garza may mature into a top line starter b/c his stuff is nasty but there is more to it than K rates and FIP.

Garza bests Lohse in every single statistically category except walks. Garza has better stuff, has a better track record of durability and he's significantly younger. I don't see this argument at all. Its there in the results. Garza is better, has performed better and has better pitches. If you don't want to use the results to determine who the better pitcher is, that's your prerogative.

If I need to get my head out stat sheets, you need to get your head out of these subjective, indeterminable things you like to use to evaluate players.