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Re: Trade Matt Holliday????

Posted: 11/22/2012 10:44 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



Jmodene1 wrote: I'm trying to remember who was the poster earlier this year who wanted us to get rid of Holliday because he wasn't hitting .340-40-120 like he is "supposed" to.
You're probably referring to me, but you're putting words in my mouth.  And I don't think I ever suggested trading him (as some have).  As crdswmn pointed out, he has a no trade clause.

I will admit to suggesting that he was overpaid.  I will also admit that you can't expect much more than what we have gotten from Holliday.   If he continues to provide what he has so far, no one will have much to complain about.  Still, I fear that his production will diminish sometime before his contract expires.

Last edited 11/23/2012 4:09 PM by nbr1hawkeye

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Posted: 12/12/2012 10:59 AM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


More Matt Holiday garb. I think I'm going to make a mission of mine to take to task those that would ever not want to have him on the team.


http://www.milb.com/news/artic...;vkey=news_milb



MiLB.com: Have you had a chance to speak with any big leaguers about what you can do to improve?

Wong: I got a text from Matt Holliday, I think in January sometime. He asked me if I wanted to come up and train with him for a week in St. Louis. I thought it was a prank. I'd never talked with Matt before or anything, but I responded that I'd love to train with him and see what St. Louis was all about. I went there about a week later and met him for the first time and I was intimidated by him. He's a big dude and he's Matt Holliday. He's one of the best players in the game right now.

For him to invite me, I was just drawn back. You never hear that, you never hear of someone calling some rookie to spend time with him and train with him. To have that experience was awesome. I hit with him and worked out with him, and you realize how he's so good because he trains unbelievably hard. He was killing me in the training room, doing things I'd never done before.

I realized that he pushes himself past the point where a lot of guys would stop, but that's what makes him so successful. He's got to the point where he can do things and push himself to high levels so that during the season he can handle it without a problem. Now I'm just trying to get better every single day in every aspect of my game. I want to come into every year to do something to blow someone away.
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Posted: 12/12/2012 11:20 AM

RE: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


Awesome story Pads, good find.
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Posted: 12/12/2012 12:14 PM

RE: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


Holliday is that kind of guy. He had a huge influence on Troy Tulowitzki when Tulo first came up to the Rockies. I believe Tulo still talks to Holliday on a regular basis.

When RCW was posting on here a couple of years ago, he basically implied that while Pujols was the face of the franchise and the "leader" in terms of earning it through his play on the field, Holliday was the guy in the background that really spent time with the younger guys and showed them what it is to be a major leaguer.

That's not to say that Pujols did not do that as well as I really don't know. But Holliday has always been a positive force on his teams, adding value that is not well publicized nor quantifiable, but significant.

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Posted: 12/12/2012 12:35 PM

RE: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


I'm not anti-Holliday at all, but I wouldn't take issue with putting Taveras out there pretty soon for $0.5 and spending $16.5 on something else, if it could be done. No problem with Matt's character, awesome teammate, massively motivated individual, helps old ladies cross the street.
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Posted: 12/12/2012 12:47 PM

RE: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



blingboy wrote: I'm not anti-Holliday at all, but I wouldn't take issue with putting Taveras out there pretty soon for $0.5 and spending $16.5 on something else, if it could be done. No problem with Matt's character, awesome teammate, massively motivated individual, helps old ladies cross the street.

We don't have three Taveras's in our system. Thus, we can play both. Why not stick with the one we know, the one who is here, the one who can't be moved, and the one that helps those around him as well as being one of the best players in baseball?
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Posted: 12/12/2012 1:14 PM

RE: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



PadsFS wrote:
blingboy wrote: I'm not anti-Holliday at all, but I wouldn't take issue with putting Taveras out there pretty soon for $0.5 and spending $16.5 on something else, if it could be done. No problem with Matt's character, awesome teammate, massively motivated individual, helps old ladies cross the street.

We don't have three Taveras's in our system. Thus, we can play both. Why not stick with the one we know, the one who is here, the one who can't be moved, and the one that helps those around him as well as being one of the best players in baseball?
I don't object to that, but I think I need to state my point another way. 

The Cards brass might reasonably decide that what they want to do in the coming year is sign Wainwright for 2014 and beyond, and line up a shorstop to play beside Wong in 2014 and beyond.  One way to do that, given the team's payroll structure,  could be to off the $17M a year contract and go with Craig and Taveras in the outfield and Adams at first.  I would not have a problem with that solution. 

Maybe instead the answer will be to not extend Wainwright, given all the hot young arms, and use prospects to get a low cost shortstop, keep Holliday and Taveras, and either Craig or Adams for 1B.  That works too.

I would, of course, agree that I'd rather Mr. DeWit cough up the money to have it all.  I'm thinking that won't happen though.
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Posted: 12/12/2012 1:15 PM

RE: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



blingboy wrote: I'm not anti-Holliday at all, but I wouldn't take issue with putting Taveras out there pretty soon for $0.5 and spending $16.5 on something else, if it could be done. No problem with Matt's character, awesome teammate, massively motivated individual, helps old ladies cross the street.

If you could spend $16.5M on something else and get positive net value, then it makes sense. However, that's an unknown and would bring some risk.

A valid point, but probably something you give greater consideration to in a time of rebuilding.
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Posted: 12/12/2012 1:31 PM

RE: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


I think it's something you give greater consideration only once Oscar and Matt Adams are actually productive major league players, if that happens at all.  If Adams can't hit enough to really play first, then you're going to use Craig there and you still need Holliday.  If Oscar flames out, you definitely still need Holliday.  

We're several years away from knowing whether Oscar and Matt will actually be major league starters.  Until then, there's no way we consider trading Matt Holliday.
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Posted: 12/12/2012 1:59 PM

RE: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


Matt Holliday has a full no trade clause in his contract.

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Posted: 12/12/2012 2:13 PM

RE: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


"Matt Holliday has a full no trade clause in his contract." So did other guys who got traded. They get bought out fairly often by one of the teams involved.

The arguments made above are good ones. At least it has been proven that the subject of trading Holliday can be debated rationally without personal attacks.

There is some money coming off the books after 2013 - Beltran, Carp, Furcal. Against that are several guys who will be putting a dent in the payroll by then - Craig, Jay, Freese, Motte, Boggs. We will know what happens when it does. Matt will surely provide value however long he's here.
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Posted: 12/12/2012 4:12 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


I would be willing to bet that BDW has already budgeted for a Wainwright extension without taking Matt Holliday's contract into effect.

Last edited 12/12/2012 4:12 PM by crdswmn

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Posted: 12/12/2012 7:43 PM

RE: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
Domeboys wrote: I see nothing in this about how the 2013 Cardinals could be better as a result, perhaps because such a claim would be difficult to demonstrate.
This is about getting better going forward more so than being better in 2013. The money could be spent to bring in a SS and strengthen the bench. It would give MOz wiggle room with regards to upgrading the starting pitching even. Not to mention the players you could net in return. Are you looking for specific names i would like to see in a Cards uniform Domer?
Ok, which shortstop is out there that could come anywhere near close to replacing Holliday's production to make it worth it?

To go even further, how many of those shortstops ever reach free agency? I can think of maybe Jose Reyes (who many feel was overpaid), Alex Rodriguez (when he reached it there the first time), and Edgar Renteria when he left STL for Boston. And that's going over the last decade or so.

The problem with trading a guy like Holliday so that you can free up money for a shortstop is that a) elite shortstops hardly ever reach free agency and b) when they do, they will assuredly be overpaid because nearly every team could use an upgrade at shortstop.

Trading Holliday is just stupid and trading him so that you can upgrade at shortstop through free agency is just even more stupid. He's a middle of the order hitter that is as consistent year to year as they come in baseball.
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Posted: 5/31/2013 8:48 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


Ah the dreaded trade Holli thread that i started months ago.tongue Maybe this will take a little heat off of Boggs and MM for a moment. "Mr clutch" so far has 2 hits in 23 AB's in late and close situations, this after hitting .230 last year in the same situations. Last year with 2 outs and RISP "Clutch" hit .190. His 88 Rbi two year ago while hitting behind Pujols on one of the top offenses in league is nothing short of pathetic, especially for a guy with his ability. His mishaps in the playoffs for the Cards are LEGENDARY. But you guys are right there is nothing to all the Holiday is not clutch talk. I want to keep this thread alive b/c in another year or two when his back goes out and we are saddled with a Carlos Lee i want to be able to say "i told you so way back when".

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 5/31/2013 9:02 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


Here is a comment I posted on TCNB a little earlier.

I’d like to see MM swap Holiday and Craig in the lineup, see what happens.


The reason being that in April Carp got on base 34 times via hit or walk and scored 21 runs. In May he got on base 55 times and scored 21 runs. So, while Carp has been on fire, the middle of the order has not been taking full advantage.
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Posted: 5/31/2013 9:39 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



cardinalnationhouston wrote: Ah the dreaded trade Holli thread that i started months ago.tongue Maybe this will take a little heat off of Boggs and MM for a moment. "Mr clutch" so far has 2 hits in 23 AB's in late and close situations, this after hitting .230 last year in the same situations. Last year with 2 outs and RISP "Clutch" hit .190. His 88 Rbi two year ago while hitting behind Pujols on one of the top offenses in league is nothing short of pathetic, especially for a guy with his ability. His mishaps in the playoffs for the Cards are LEGENDARY. But you guys are right there is nothing to all the Holiday is not clutch talk. I want to keep this thread alive b/c in another year or two when his back goes out and we are saddled with a Carlos Lee i want to be able to say "i told you so way back when".




Facepalm Hand Gesture
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Posted: 5/31/2013 9:40 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



blingboy wrote: Here is a comment I posted on TCNB a little earlier.

I’d like to see MM swap Holiday and Craig in the lineup, see what happens.


The reason being that in April Carp got on base 34 times via hit or walk and scored 21 runs. In May he got on base 55 times and scored 21 runs. So, while Carp has been on fire, the middle of the order has not been taking full advantage.
You have some burr in your saddle about Holliday batting 3rd.
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Posted: 5/31/2013 9:47 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



crdswmn wrote:
You have some burr in your saddle about Holliday batting 3rd.
As I have often said, there are 17 million reasons why Holiday hits third, none of them good.
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Posted: 5/31/2013 9:51 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



blingboy wrote: Here is a comment I posted on TCNB a little earlier.

I’d like to see MM swap Holiday and Craig in the lineup, see what happens.


The reason being that in April Carp got on base 34 times via hit or walk and scored 21 runs. In May he got on base 55 times and scored 21 runs. So, while Carp has been on fire, the middle of the order has not been taking full advantage.
I not only agree with this but have been saying it for about a calendar year now. Allen Craig IMO is both a better hitter and a better left fielder than Matt. If you go back in this thread from the start you might find it makes more sense now. Holli is a much respected teammate and a warrior but his flat feet, back issues and track record in the playoffs tell as much of the story as his metrics IMO. His contract and high tension swing also give room for pause. Not calling Matt a scrub by any means just saying there are some warts and they will only become more obvious as time goes by. Also, he would have trade value and would give salary relief for not just next year but for several years.

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 5/31/2013 9:54 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



blingboy wrote:
crdswmn wrote:
You have some burr in your saddle about Holliday batting 3rd.
As I have often said, there are 17 million reasons why Holiday hits third, none of them good.
Yes, and I have never understood the complaint.
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