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Re: Trade Matt Holliday????

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Posted: 11/20/2012 8:55 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


In all of this trade discussion, the one thing that is being overlooked is that pesky little thing called a full no trade clause Holliday has in his contract.  Holliday permanently moved his family from Texas to St. Louis.  Good luck getting him to waive.
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Posted: 11/20/2012 11:06 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



stlcards5129 wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
TCRedbird wrote: Makes no sense at all, we all know you hate Holliday CHN, but this just makes no sense.  Why on gods green earth would we want to trade our best hitter...
This is the best question of the bunch TC. I will argue that Matt has been awful when needed most in the playoffs. Not just bad but awful and being he is supposed to be "the guy" on this team and hits #3 it is significant. Also Tavares is about ready, Cards have comparable bats to pick up the slack( Craig, Freese, Molina and Beltran all have right handed power) so his production would not be missed as much as some may think IMO.Matt makes about 18 a year so his departure could provide an awful lot of salary relief which could be used in other areas. His back is a BIG concern to me b/c if he could not go in the most important games of the year that is a huge red flag. No one here has anything but respect for Holl, we all know if he could have played he would have. The reason you trade him now is that you can sell high on a guy that i believe is on the downspin now who HAS value and a big contract. It all depends on the return of course but i am not suggesting he be given away. I am sorry that Crdswmn and 5129 think this is a "bash Holliday" thread as opposed to joining the conversation with a legit argument as to "why not". I mean other than he is a good hitter with great OPS and all that in the regular season. Magnolia is dead on with his assessment, but he read past the first sentence.
??? Read my post again I actually supply evidence. You, again, just run your mouth, providing 0 reasoning. I think me listing a bunch of evidence showing that he's one of the 10 best hitters in baseball since 2009 is a pretty legit argument. You on the other hand are basing your argument on 67 postseason plate appearances (his bad '09 playoffs and '12 playoffs) I'm basing my argument on more 2000 plate appearances ...but yah I'm the one with an illegitimate argument...

Ok tell me now how I'm wrong? You want to trade one of the best hitters in baseball for virtually no reason, other than he's had a some rough postseason series and he makes a salary commensurate with his production. This isn't the first time you've spoken ill of him either. It sounds like basing to me.
You are NOT wrong 5129. These are all just opinions really. I gave reasons too like he is replaceable for this club and makes big money for one. Number two is the back issue which i believe is a bigger problem than Matt will ever admit to. If this guy falls off the cliff this year or next i promise there will be a 100 guys here that will complain Moz held on to him too long. There is no doubt that he would net a significant return in young, cost controlled players while slashing 15 percent of your overall player salary budget. Without Matt our outfield could still be Beltran, Jay, Craig and Tavares. Adams and Carpenter at first base. I would go with that right now. Lets not write off Beltran for 2014 just yet either. Sell high to an AL team this year is NOt stupid in this case. Unless they can shed Westie or Furcals contracts then this is the one subtraction that provides $$$ for going forward.

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 11/21/2012 12:05 AM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


I'm trying to remember who was the poster earlier this year who wanted us to get rid of Holliday because he wasn't hitting .340-40-120 like he is "supposed" to.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 1:20 AM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
stlcards5129 wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
TCRedbird wrote: Makes no sense at all, we all know you hate Holliday CHN, but this just makes no sense.  Why on gods green earth would we want to trade our best hitter...
This is the best question of the bunch TC. I will argue that Matt has been awful when needed most in the playoffs. Not just bad but awful and being he is supposed to be "the guy" on this team and hits #3 it is significant. Also Tavares is about ready, Cards have comparable bats to pick up the slack( Craig, Freese, Molina and Beltran all have right handed power) so his production would not be missed as much as some may think IMO.Matt makes about 18 a year so his departure could provide an awful lot of salary relief which could be used in other areas. His back is a BIG concern to me b/c if he could not go in the most important games of the year that is a huge red flag. No one here has anything but respect for Holl, we all know if he could have played he would have. The reason you trade him now is that you can sell high on a guy that i believe is on the downspin now who HAS value and a big contract. It all depends on the return of course but i am not suggesting he be given away. I am sorry that Crdswmn and 5129 think this is a "bash Holliday" thread as opposed to joining the conversation with a legit argument as to "why not". I mean other than he is a good hitter with great OPS and all that in the regular season. Magnolia is dead on with his assessment, but he read past the first sentence.
??? Read my post again I actually supply evidence. You, again, just run your mouth, providing 0 reasoning. I think me listing a bunch of evidence showing that he's one of the 10 best hitters in baseball since 2009 is a pretty legit argument. You on the other hand are basing your argument on 67 postseason plate appearances (his bad '09 playoffs and '12 playoffs) I'm basing my argument on more 2000 plate appearances ...but yah I'm the one with an illegitimate argument...

Ok tell me now how I'm wrong? You want to trade one of the best hitters in baseball for virtually no reason, other than he's had a some rough postseason series and he makes a salary commensurate with his production. This isn't the first time you've spoken ill of him either. It sounds like basing to me.
You are NOT wrong 5129. These are all just opinions really. I gave reasons too like he is replaceable for this club and makes big money for one. Number two is the back issue which i believe is a bigger problem than Matt will ever admit to. If this guy falls off the cliff this year or next i promise there will be a 100 guys here that will complain Moz held on to him too long. There is no doubt that he would net a significant return in young, cost controlled players while slashing 15 percent of your overall player salary budget. Without Matt our outfield could still be Beltran, Jay, Craig and Tavares. Adams and Carpenter at first base. I would go with that right now. Lets not write off Beltran for 2014 just yet either. Sell high to an AL team this year is NOt stupid in this case. Unless they can shed Westie or Furcals contracts then this is the one subtraction that provides $$$ for going forward.
Oh, OK, I understand now. You want to trade a perennial 900 OPS outfielder because he makes a reasonable salary, you presume he has a back problem, Mo might be holding on to him to long and the Cardinals have Beltran (who is only signed through 2013 and has his fair share of injury problems), Jay (who has had one season where he has shown he is capable of being a regular), Craig (who has also had injury problems), Taveras (unproven in the bigs), Adams (who could very well be an AAAA player), Carpenter (who cannot be counted on to be a regular). Holliday's contract expires in 2016 from 2013 to 2016 the Cardinals have a grand total of 114 Million Dollars of Payroll dedicated with only Craig, Freese Wainwright and Jay becoming Free Agents (all of which, with the exception of Wainwright become free Agents the year before Holliday expires), doesn't strike me as being in a bad place in terms of salary commitments. The stupidest thing I could possibly think to do to this team is to trade Holliday (Trading Taveras, Miller and Rosenthal would be worse). You don't come 1 win away from going to the World Series and then trade your best hitter that off season. Your reasons have absolutely zero validity.

I just want to sum this up for you to show you how ridiculous this is. You are suggesting trading the teams best hitter because 1) he makes a reasonable salary 2) you have some indemonstrable fear of his back giving out 3) you are worried Mo doesn't know what he is doing 4)The team has a plethora of unproven players to plug in and 5) Beltran can be brought back for 2014 as if he doesn't have injury problems of his own.

Last edited 11/21/2012 1:29 AM by stlcards5129

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Posted: 11/21/2012 4:13 AM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



stlcards5129 wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
stlcards5129 wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
TCRedbird wrote: Makes no sense at all, we all know you hate Holliday CHN, but this just makes no sense.  Why on gods green earth would we want to trade our best hitter...
This is the best question of the bunch TC. I will argue that Matt has been awful when needed most in the playoffs. Not just bad but awful and being he is supposed to be "the guy" on this team and hits #3 it is significant. Also Tavares is about ready, Cards have comparable bats to pick up the slack( Craig, Freese, Molina and Beltran all have right handed power) so his production would not be missed as much as some may think IMO.Matt makes about 18 a year so his departure could provide an awful lot of salary relief which could be used in other areas. His back is a BIG concern to me b/c if he could not go in the most important games of the year that is a huge red flag. No one here has anything but respect for Holl, we all know if he could have played he would have. The reason you trade him now is that you can sell high on a guy that i believe is on the downspin now who HAS value and a big contract. It all depends on the return of course but i am not suggesting he be given away. I am sorry that Crdswmn and 5129 think this is a "bash Holliday" thread as opposed to joining the conversation with a legit argument as to "why not". I mean other than he is a good hitter with great OPS and all that in the regular season. Magnolia is dead on with his assessment, but he read past the first sentence.
??? Read my post again I actually supply evidence. You, again, just run your mouth, providing 0 reasoning. I think me listing a bunch of evidence showing that he's one of the 10 best hitters in baseball since 2009 is a pretty legit argument. You on the other hand are basing your argument on 67 postseason plate appearances (his bad '09 playoffs and '12 playoffs) I'm basing my argument on more 2000 plate appearances ...but yah I'm the one with an illegitimate argument...

Ok tell me now how I'm wrong? You want to trade one of the best hitters in baseball for virtually no reason, other than he's had a some rough postseason series and he makes a salary commensurate with his production. This isn't the first time you've spoken ill of him either. It sounds like basing to me.
You are NOT wrong 5129. These are all just opinions really. I gave reasons too like he is replaceable for this club and makes big money for one. Number two is the back issue which i believe is a bigger problem than Matt will ever admit to. If this guy falls off the cliff this year or next i promise there will be a 100 guys here that will complain Moz held on to him too long. There is no doubt that he would net a significant return in young, cost controlled players while slashing 15 percent of your overall player salary budget. Without Matt our outfield could still be Beltran, Jay, Craig and Tavares. Adams and Carpenter at first base. I would go with that right now. Lets not write off Beltran for 2014 just yet either. Sell high to an AL team this year is NOt stupid in this case. Unless they can shed Westie or Furcals contracts then this is the one subtraction that provides $$$ for going forward.
Oh, OK, I understand now. You want to trade a perennial 900 OPS outfielder because he makes a reasonable salary, you presume he has a back problem, Mo might be holding on to him to long and the Cardinals have Beltran (who is only signed through 2013 and has his fair share of injury problems), Jay (who has had one season where he has shown he is capable of being a regular), Craig (who has also had injury problems), Taveras (unproven in the bigs), Adams (who could very well be an AAAA player), Carpenter (who cannot be counted on to be a regular). Holliday's contract expires in 2016 from 2013 to 2016 the Cardinals have a grand total of 114 Million Dollars of Payroll dedicated with only Craig, Freese Wainwright and Jay becoming Free Agents (all of which, with the exception of Wainwright become free Agents the year before Holliday expires), doesn't strike me as being in a bad place in terms of salary commitments. The stupidest thing I could possibly think to do to this team is to trade Holliday (Trading Taveras, Miller and Rosenthal would be worse). You don't come 1 win away from going to the World Series and then trade your best hitter that off season. Your reasons have absolutely zero validity.

I just want to sum this up for you to show you how ridiculous this is. You are suggesting trading the teams best hitter because 1) he makes a reasonable salary 2) you have some indemonstrable fear of his back giving out 3) you are worried Mo doesn't know what he is doing 4)The team has a plethora of unproven players to plug in and 5) Beltran can be brought back for 2014 as if he doesn't have injury problems of his own.
You should have redacted all i put in bold print. Never said or even suggested any of this except for the Beltran thing. I think Carlos at least repeats last year. Then everyone will bitch when he wants more money. He has knee and leg problems but Berkman and Holliday have back problems. Big difference IMO. I would not be surprised if Cards don't add a year to his contract this off season. I would. Craig could move into that position tomorrow with no dropoff in left IMO. You would have to cover 1st base though with Adams and Carpenter. Plus Tavares could be in St.Louis as early as June talent wise. Trading Matt would NOt leave a black hole in the middle b/c this team has enough sticks to cover it. This club had either 15 hits or 2 in a game all year long. The offense needs to be more diversified especially at the top of the order. That takes some flexibility in budget and we don't have it right now. I would not have done the Furcal and Westbrook extensions b/c of the overall $$$. Fifteen Mill for these two next year. This depleted our Wainwright money and Moz MUST extend that guy. We trade Holliday because he has major return potential, Makes 18 Mill and the team can replace him with not one but TWO STUDS and he has a stiffening back that is actually apparent and not a figment of my imagination. Oh yeah there is his brutal playoff track record. You are right! What the heck am i thinking?

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 11/21/2012 7:45 AM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
stlcards5129 wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
stlcards5129 wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
TCRedbird wrote: Makes no sense at all, we all know you hate Holliday CHN, but this just makes no sense.  Why on gods green earth would we want to trade our best hitter...
This is the best question of the bunch TC. I will argue that Matt has been awful when needed most in the playoffs. Not just bad but awful and being he is supposed to be "the guy" on this team and hits #3 it is significant. Also Tavares is about ready, Cards have comparable bats to pick up the slack( Craig, Freese, Molina and Beltran all have right handed power) so his production would not be missed as much as some may think IMO.Matt makes about 18 a year so his departure could provide an awful lot of salary relief which could be used in other areas. His back is a BIG concern to me b/c if he could not go in the most important games of the year that is a huge red flag. No one here has anything but respect for Holl, we all know if he could have played he would have. The reason you trade him now is that you can sell high on a guy that i believe is on the downspin now who HAS value and a big contract. It all depends on the return of course but i am not suggesting he be given away. I am sorry that Crdswmn and 5129 think this is a "bash Holliday" thread as opposed to joining the conversation with a legit argument as to "why not". I mean other than he is a good hitter with great OPS and all that in the regular season. Magnolia is dead on with his assessment, but he read past the first sentence.
??? Read my post again I actually supply evidence. You, again, just run your mouth, providing 0 reasoning. I think me listing a bunch of evidence showing that he's one of the 10 best hitters in baseball since 2009 is a pretty legit argument. You on the other hand are basing your argument on 67 postseason plate appearances (his bad '09 playoffs and '12 playoffs) I'm basing my argument on more 2000 plate appearances ...but yah I'm the one with an illegitimate argument...

Ok tell me now how I'm wrong? You want to trade one of the best hitters in baseball for virtually no reason, other than he's had a some rough postseason series and he makes a salary commensurate with his production. This isn't the first time you've spoken ill of him either. It sounds like basing to me.
You are NOT wrong 5129. These are all just opinions really. I gave reasons too like he is replaceable for this club and makes big money for one. Number two is the back issue which i believe is a bigger problem than Matt will ever admit to. If this guy falls off the cliff this year or next i promise there will be a 100 guys here that will complain Moz held on to him too long. There is no doubt that he would net a significant return in young, cost controlled players while slashing 15 percent of your overall player salary budget. Without Matt our outfield could still be Beltran, Jay, Craig and Tavares. Adams and Carpenter at first base. I would go with that right now. Lets not write off Beltran for 2014 just yet either. Sell high to an AL team this year is NOt stupid in this case. Unless they can shed Westie or Furcals contracts then this is the one subtraction that provides $$$ for going forward.
Oh, OK, I understand now. You want to trade a perennial 900 OPS outfielder because he makes a reasonable salary, you presume he has a back problem, Mo might be holding on to him to long and the Cardinals have Beltran (who is only signed through 2013 and has his fair share of injury problems), Jay (who has had one season where he has shown he is capable of being a regular), Craig (who has also had injury problems), Taveras (unproven in the bigs), Adams (who could very well be an AAAA player), Carpenter (who cannot be counted on to be a regular). Holliday's contract expires in 2016 from 2013 to 2016 the Cardinals have a grand total of 114 Million Dollars of Payroll dedicated with only Craig, Freese Wainwright and Jay becoming Free Agents (all of which, with the exception of Wainwright become free Agents the year before Holliday expires), doesn't strike me as being in a bad place in terms of salary commitments. The stupidest thing I could possibly think to do to this team is to trade Holliday (Trading Taveras, Miller and Rosenthal would be worse). You don't come 1 win away from going to the World Series and then trade your best hitter that off season. Your reasons have absolutely zero validity.

I just want to sum this up for you to show you how ridiculous this is. You are suggesting trading the teams best hitter because 1) he makes a reasonable salary 2) you have some indemonstrable fear of his back giving out 3) you are worried Mo doesn't know what he is doing 4)The team has a plethora of unproven players to plug in and 5) Beltran can be brought back for 2014 as if he doesn't have injury problems of his own.
You should have redacted all i put in bold print. Never said or even suggested any of this except for the Beltran thing. I think Carlos at least repeats last year. Then everyone will bitch when he wants more money. He has knee and leg problems but Berkman and Holliday have back problems. Big difference IMO. I would not be surprised if Cards don't add a year to his contract this off season. I would. Craig could move into that position tomorrow with no dropoff in left IMO. You would have to cover 1st base though with Adams and Carpenter. Plus Tavares could be in St.Louis as early as June talent wise. Trading Matt would NOt leave a black hole in the middle b/c this team has enough sticks to cover it. This club had either 15 hits or 2 in a game all year long. The offense needs to be more diversified especially at the top of the order. That takes some flexibility in budget and we don't have it right now. I would not have done the Furcal and Westbrook extensions b/c of the overall $$$. Fifteen Mill for these two next year. This depleted our Wainwright money and Moz MUST extend that guy. We trade Holliday because he has major return potential, Makes 18 Mill and the team can replace him with not one but TWO STUDS and he has a stiffening back that is actually apparent and not a figment of my imagination. Oh yeah there is his brutal playoff track record. You are right! What the heck am i thinking?
first we dont have 2 proven studs to replace him with that is a pipe dream of yours. Second he is far from over paid and the biggest one you keep ignoring is his nTC....
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Posted: 11/21/2012 8:06 AM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
You are NOT wrong 5129. These are all just opinions really. I gave reasons too like he is replaceable for this club and makes big money for one. Number two is the back issue which i believe is a bigger problem than Matt will ever admit to. If this guy falls off the cliff this year or next i promise there will be a 100 guys here that will complain Moz held on to him too long. There is no doubt that he would net a significant return in young, cost controlled players while slashing 15 percent of your overall player salary budget. Without Matt our outfield could still be Beltran, Jay, Craig and Tavares. Adams and Carpenter at first base. I would go with that right now. Lets not write off Beltran for 2014 just yet either. Sell high to an AL team this year is NOt stupid in this case. Unless they can shed Westie or Furcals contracts then this is the one subtraction that provides $$$ for going forward.


crdswmn wrote:

This is all of it in a nutshell.  It all boils down to those three words.  For every Holliday basher/hater I have ever encountered this is the central theme.  All of the Holliday bashers/haters are offended by his contract.  Everything else is just window dressing.  

Guess what?  It's Bill DeWitt's money.  He's done just fine spending it.  The Cardinals have two WS titles since he bought the club.  I don't think he needs help from the peanut gallery.

Last edited 11/21/2012 11:49 AM by crdswmn

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Posted: 11/21/2012 8:21 AM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:

You should have redacted all i put in bold print. Never said or even suggested any of this except for the Beltran thing. I think Carlos at least repeats last year. Then everyone will bitch when he wants more money. He has knee and leg problems but Berkman and Holliday have back problems. Big difference IMO. I would not be surprised if Cards don't add a year to his contract this off season. I would. Craig could move into that position tomorrow with no dropoff in left IMO. You would have to cover 1st base though with Adams and Carpenter. Plus Tavares could be in St.Louis as early as June talent wise. Trading Matt would NOt leave a black hole in the middle b/c this team has enough sticks to cover it. This club had either 15 hits or 2 in a game all year long. The offense needs to be more diversified especially at the top of the order. That takes some flexibility in budget and we don't have it right now. I would not have done the Furcal and Westbrook extensions b/c of the overall $$$. Fifteen Mill for these two next year. This depleted our Wainwright money and Moz MUST extend that guy. We trade Holliday because he has major return potential, Makes 18 Mill and the team can replace him with not one but TWO STUDS and he has a stiffening back that is actually apparent and not a figment of my imagination. Oh yeah there is his brutal playoff track record. You are right! What the heck am i thinking?
Lower back tightness has cost Matt Holliday:

1 game in 2007
5 games in 2008
3 games in 2012

Hardly an injury history that you want to sell high on, especially seeing as how he hasn't missed any large amount of games ever for any other reason either.

Berkman has sat out 3 games his whole career for back issues.  He does have knee problems though to the tune of 137 missed games.  I doubt his knee will give him much trouble next year as his issue all season was that he needed to rest it.

Beltran, now, wow. Just wow that you would compare Holliday to him injury-wise....

Beltran's knees have cost him 228 games...It's not even comparable.

Also, much of Beltran's value used to be in his running/defense, which is completely gone now. He will be a liability out there starting on April 1st.



http://www.baseballprospectus....ELTRAN19770424A

Last edited 11/21/2012 8:47 AM by PadsFS

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Posted: 11/21/2012 10:39 AM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
stlcards5129 wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
stlcards5129 wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
TCRedbird wrote: Makes no sense at all, we all know you hate Holliday CHN, but this just makes no sense.  Why on gods green earth would we want to trade our best hitter...
This is the best question of the bunch TC. I will argue that Matt has been awful when needed most in the playoffs. Not just bad but awful and being he is supposed to be "the guy" on this team and hits #3 it is significant. Also Tavares is about ready, Cards have comparable bats to pick up the slack( Craig, Freese, Molina and Beltran all have right handed power) so his production would not be missed as much as some may think IMO.Matt makes about 18 a year so his departure could provide an awful lot of salary relief which could be used in other areas. His back is a BIG concern to me b/c if he could not go in the most important games of the year that is a huge red flag. No one here has anything but respect for Holl, we all know if he could have played he would have. The reason you trade him now is that you can sell high on a guy that i believe is on the downspin now who HAS value and a big contract. It all depends on the return of course but i am not suggesting he be given away. I am sorry that Crdswmn and 5129 think this is a "bash Holliday" thread as opposed to joining the conversation with a legit argument as to "why not". I mean other than he is a good hitter with great OPS and all that in the regular season. Magnolia is dead on with his assessment, but he read past the first sentence.
??? Read my post again I actually supply evidence. You, again, just run your mouth, providing 0 reasoning. I think me listing a bunch of evidence showing that he's one of the 10 best hitters in baseball since 2009 is a pretty legit argument. You on the other hand are basing your argument on 67 postseason plate appearances (his bad '09 playoffs and '12 playoffs) I'm basing my argument on more 2000 plate appearances ...but yah I'm the one with an illegitimate argument...

Ok tell me now how I'm wrong? You want to trade one of the best hitters in baseball for virtually no reason, other than he's had a some rough postseason series and he makes a salary commensurate with his production. This isn't the first time you've spoken ill of him either. It sounds like basing to me.
You are NOT wrong 5129. These are all just opinions really. I gave reasons too like he is replaceable for this club and makes big money for one. Number two is the back issue which i believe is a bigger problem than Matt will ever admit to. If this guy falls off the cliff this year or next i promise there will be a 100 guys here that will complain Moz held on to him too long. There is no doubt that he would net a significant return in young, cost controlled players while slashing 15 percent of your overall player salary budget. Without Matt our outfield could still be Beltran, Jay, Craig and Tavares. Adams and Carpenter at first base. I would go with that right now. Lets not write off Beltran for 2014 just yet either. Sell high to an AL team this year is NOt stupid in this case. Unless they can shed Westie or Furcals contracts then this is the one subtraction that provides $$$ for going forward.
Oh, OK, I understand now. You want to trade a perennial 900 OPS outfielder because he makes a reasonable salary, you presume he has a back problem, Mo might be holding on to him to long and the Cardinals have Beltran (who is only signed through 2013 and has his fair share of injury problems), Jay (who has had one season where he has shown he is capable of being a regular), Craig (who has also had injury problems), Taveras (unproven in the bigs), Adams (who could very well be an AAAA player), Carpenter (who cannot be counted on to be a regular). Holliday's contract expires in 2016 from 2013 to 2016 the Cardinals have a grand total of 114 Million Dollars of Payroll dedicated with only Craig, Freese Wainwright and Jay becoming Free Agents (all of which, with the exception of Wainwright become free Agents the year before Holliday expires), doesn't strike me as being in a bad place in terms of salary commitments. The stupidest thing I could possibly think to do to this team is to trade Holliday (Trading Taveras, Miller and Rosenthal would be worse). You don't come 1 win away from going to the World Series and then trade your best hitter that off season. Your reasons have absolutely zero validity.

I just want to sum this up for you to show you how ridiculous this is. You are suggesting trading the teams best hitter because 1) he makes a reasonable salary 2) you have some indemonstrable fear of his back giving out 3) you are worried Mo doesn't know what he is doing 4)The team has a plethora of unproven players to plug in and 5) Beltran can be brought back for 2014 as if he doesn't have injury problems of his own.
You should have redacted all i put in bold print. Never said or even suggested any of this except for the Beltran thing. I think Carlos at least repeats last year. Then everyone will bitch when he wants more money. He has knee and leg problems but Berkman and Holliday have back problems. Big difference IMO. I would not be surprised if Cards don't add a year to his contract this off season. I would. Craig could move into that position tomorrow with no dropoff in left IMO. You would have to cover 1st base though with Adams and Carpenter. Plus Tavares could be in St.Louis as early as June talent wise. Trading Matt would NOt leave a black hole in the middle b/c this team has enough sticks to cover it. This club had either 15 hits or 2 in a game all year long. The offense needs to be more diversified especially at the top of the order. That takes some flexibility in budget and we don't have it right now. I would not have done the Furcal and Westbrook extensions b/c of the overall $$$. Fifteen Mill for these two next year. This depleted our Wainwright money and Moz MUST extend that guy. We trade Holliday because he has major return potential, Makes 18 Mill and the team can replace him with not one but TWO STUDS and he has a stiffening back that is actually apparent and not a figment of my imagination. Oh yeah there is his brutal playoff track record. You are right! What the heck am i thinking?
You are absolutely worthless to discuss baseball with. You repeatedly fail to acknowledge facts. His salary is in fact reasonable, this team does not have a bat nearly as proven as Holliday (if you recall Beltran tanked in the second half last year and to suggest that any of Craig, Jay, Carpenter, Adams or a rookie Taveras as "STUD" replacements you're fooling yourself). I don't see what this club's anemic offensive tendencies have to do with Holliday, he was one of the more consistent hitters. You worry about there not being room to retain Wainwright, the one area where this team actually has multiple stud replacements. The injury history is very much a figment of your imagination he has never played less than 120 games and averages a very good number of games every year and hasn't missed than many games because of his back. His brutal playoff track record is a figment of your imagination also, he had a great 2007 when he put the Rockies on his back and carried them to the World Series. He also had a great 2011 he destroyed the Brewers. The fact you even use playoff numbers to try and justify this is crazy. Every single number I listed up there is in fact true even 3, you even stated you were worried Mo would hang on to him too long. It's all true, it doesn't need to be redacted.

It is pretty simple, you hate Holliday. That's the only reason why anyone would ever suggest trading the best hitter on the team. Trading Holliday makes this team worse. If you didn't have such an obvious bias against the guy you'd be able to see that. I know you're not a stat head but Holliday is one of the rare players in the league that passes the eye effort and stat tests. You have the blindest eye for player evaluation I have ever seen. You base your arguments on fallacies, tiny samples and bias. Then you proceed to back them up with BS. 

This is all pointless anyway. As it has been pointed out by TC and crdswmn multiple times, dude as a full NTC.

Last edited 11/21/2012 10:57 AM by stlcards5129

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Posted: 11/21/2012 11:14 AM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


Trading Holliday would be crazy. There is no reason to complain about his post season numbers, because without his stellar regular season numbers, we wouldn't have had a post season to complain about.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 11:28 AM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
TCRedbird wrote: Makes no sense at all, we all know you hate Holliday CHN, but this just makes no sense.  Why on gods green earth would we want to trade our best hitter...
This is the best question of the bunch TC. I will argue that Matt has been awful when needed most in the playoffs. Not just bad but awful and being he is supposed to be "the guy" on this team and hits #3 it is significant. Also Tavares is about ready, Cards have comparable bats to pick up the slack( Craig, Freese, Molina and Beltran all have right handed power) so his production would not be missed as much as some may think IMO.Matt makes about 18 a year so his departure could provide an awful lot of salary relief which could be used in other areas. His back is a BIG concern to me b/c if he could not go in the most important games of the year that is a huge red flag. No one here has anything but respect for Holl, we all know if he could have played he would have. The reason you trade him now is that you can sell high on a guy that i believe is on the downspin now who HAS value and a big contract. It all depends on the return of course but i am not suggesting he be given away. I am sorry that Crdswmn and 5129 think this is a "bash Holliday" thread as opposed to joining the conversation with a legit argument as to "why not". I mean other than he is a good hitter with great OPS and all that in the regular season. Magnolia is dead on with his assessment, but he read past the first sentence.
I wish I wouldn't have read past your first sentence! get off the wacky weed.  MH is our best hitter and is much better supported in this thread by actual numbers.

“Make sure you have a different opinion and people will talk about you”

Last edited 11/21/2012 11:34 AM by tillerjustin

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Posted: 11/21/2012 5:34 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


So if we did somehow trade Holliday who would be our starting outfielders in 2014? Jay, Taveras, and who?? I think it would be unwise to resign Beltran because of his age, bad knees, and we will need that money to lock up other players. Craig is not a good option because of his knee injuries: running around in the outfield would not be good. Craig in LF would also open up 1B and require us to play Adams who is unproven.

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Posted: 11/21/2012 5:47 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


This whole topic makes me a little sick. We don't need to shoot ourselves in the foot.

 

These are not the droids your looking for, please move along....

 

 

bangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadbangheadnoideanoideanoideanoideanoideanoideanoideadisbeliefdisbeliefdisbeliefdisbeliefdisbeliefdisbeliefdisbeliefdisbelief

No negative waves man!
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Posted: 11/21/2012 6:12 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



crdswmn wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
You are NOT wrong 5129. These are all just opinions really. I gave reasons too like he is replaceable for this club and makes big money for one. Number two is the back issue which i believe is a bigger problem than Matt will ever admit to. If this guy falls off the cliff this year or next i promise there will be a 100 guys here that will complain Moz held on to him too long. There is no doubt that he would net a significant return in young, cost controlled players while slashing 15 percent of your overall player salary budget. Without Matt our outfield could still be Beltran, Jay, Craig and Tavares. Adams and Carpenter at first base. I would go with that right now. Lets not write off Beltran for 2014 just yet either. Sell high to an AL team this year is NOt stupid in this case. Unless they can shed Westie or Furcals contracts then this is the one subtraction that provides $$$ for going forward.


crdswmn wrote:

This is all of it in a nutshell.  It all boils down to those three words.  For every Holliday basher/hater I have ever encountered this is the central theme.  All of the Holliday bashers/haters are offended by his contract.  Everything else is just window dressing.  

Guess what?  It's Bill DeWitt's money.  He's done just fine spending it.  The Cardinals have two WS titles since he bought the club.  I don't think he needs help from the peanut gallery.
First off i am not your old man so don't tell me what i REALLY mean! I don't give two flips if Dewitt throws every dime of his in the Mississippi river. I could care less what he does with his money except where it applies to the team budget. Suggesting that i care what he does is really quite ignorant. The 18 million that Matt makes could be used to improve the team elsewhere as i have clearly stated. Some of you fixate on what you want me to say and ignore all the rest. No one is saying that he should be released or DfA. He would bring a significant return b/c he is a very good hitter which i also clearly said. If he was Shane Robinson we would not even having this discussion b/c Shane has little value. Holli could be a couple of young cost controlled players while also freeing up 18 million to spend on upgrades elsewhere. Our top prospect is heading to St.Louis on a bullet according to many scouts and he projects at guess where? Left field. Craig also plays the position and IMO plays it better than Holli. He also out hit Matt last despite some peoples claims that Matt was the teams best hitter last year.Craig hit .307 to .295 for Matt. Holli had 5 more Hr and 10 more Rbi but it took an extra 130 ABs to do it.Their OPS and doubles were almost identicle. Craig clearly did better with RISP but i can't find that stat but it was somewhere close to .100 points BA if i remember right. The most off base thing i have heard in ages on this board is that playoff numbers don't matter b/c it is such a small sample size. WOW! Matts OPS is a full .130 points lower in the playoffs compared to regular season. That is a HUGE difference not to mention his repeated mistakes at the most important times. Do i really need to name his playoff gaffes? I think we are all aware of them but some want to act like it just doesn't matter. I guess there is not much you can say really b/c his playoff performance speaks for itself. What are we playing for here anyways? I thought it was to win titles. How are playoff numbers irrelevant? By the way that small sample size is over 157 AB's. Not really that small.

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 11/21/2012 6:50 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



cardinalnationhouston wrote:
crdswmn wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
You are NOT wrong 5129. These are all just opinions really. I gave reasons too like he is replaceable for this club and makes big money for one. Number two is the back issue which i believe is a bigger problem than Matt will ever admit to. If this guy falls off the cliff this year or next i promise there will be a 100 guys here that will complain Moz held on to him too long. There is no doubt that he would net a significant return in young, cost controlled players while slashing 15 percent of your overall player salary budget. Without Matt our outfield could still be Beltran, Jay, Craig and Tavares. Adams and Carpenter at first base. I would go with that right now. Lets not write off Beltran for 2014 just yet either. Sell high to an AL team this year is NOt stupid in this case. Unless they can shed Westie or Furcals contracts then this is the one subtraction that provides $$$ for going forward.


crdswmn wrote:

This is all of it in a nutshell.  It all boils down to those three words.  For every Holliday basher/hater I have ever encountered this is the central theme.  All of the Holliday bashers/haters are offended by his contract.  Everything else is just window dressing.  

Guess what?  It's Bill DeWitt's money.  He's done just fine spending it.  The Cardinals have two WS titles since he bought the club.  I don't think he needs help from the peanut gallery.
First off i am not your old man so don't tell me what i REALLY mean! I don't give two flips if Dewitt throws every dime of his in the Mississippi river. I could care less what he does with his money except where it applies to the team budget. Suggesting that i care what he does is really quite ignorant. The 18 million that Matt makes could be used to improve the team elsewhere as i have clearly stated. Some of you fixate on what you want me to say and ignore all the rest. No one is saying that he should be released or DfA. He would bring a significant return b/c he is a very good hitter which i also clearly said. If he was Shane Robinson we would not even having this discussion b/c Shane has little value. Holli could be a couple of young cost controlled players while also freeing up 18 million to spend on upgrades elsewhere. Our top prospect is heading to St.Louis on a bullet according to many scouts and he projects at guess where? Left field. Craig also plays the position and IMO plays it better than Holli. He also out hit Matt last despite some peoples claims that Matt was the teams best hitter last year.Craig hit .307 to .295 for Matt. Holli had 5 more Hr and 10 more Rbi but it took an extra 130 ABs to do it.Their OPS and doubles were almost identicle. Craig clearly did better with RISP but i can't find that stat but it was somewhere close to .100 points BA if i remember right. The most off base thing i have heard in ages on this board is that playoff numbers don't matter b/c it is such a small sample size. WOW! Matts OPS is a full .130 points lower in the playoffs compared to regular season. That is a HUGE difference not to mention his repeated mistakes at the most important times. Do i really need to name his playoff gaffes? I think we are all aware of them but some want to act like it just doesn't matter. I guess there is not much you can say really b/c his playoff performance speaks for itself. What are we playing for here anyways? I thought it was to win titles. How are playoff numbers irrelevant? By the way that small sample size is over 157 AB's. Not really that small.
You say you don't care how he spends his money but then you presume to suggest  that you know better than he does about the team budget.  Are you his accountant?  What qualifications do you have that makes you superior to him in deciding how he wants to allocate his budget?  Perhaps he believes that the money he pays Holliday is a wise allocation of resources.  Perhaps he knows his budget much better than you do?

You don't like Holliday and you don't like his contract, so therefore you are to be the decider?  How arrogant of you.

I think this thread has exhausted any useful purpose it might have had.  All I keep reading are the same old arguments over and over again, which to the bulk of us make absolutely no sense.  And it is all irrelevant anyway, because Matt Holliday is not going to be traded.  And I don't like how annoyed I am getting over this because it just makes me cranky.  I'm out of this ridiculous discussion.

Last edited 11/21/2012 6:59 PM by crdswmn

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Posted: 11/21/2012 7:05 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


Well jeez, Yadi makes big money, has a postseason OPS lower than Holliday and I have an irrational fear of him getting hurt in a few years. Let’s trade him too!!

Really Shane Robinson and Matt Holliday don't have equal value, thanks for explaining that for us. None of us knew that. 

Holliday out hit everyone on the team. His OPS was equal to Craig, but Holliday had significantly more PAs and generated a lot more runs. He was the best hitter on the team this year. 

Obviously playoff numbers matter, no one said they didn't matter (and you accuse of us not reading posts haha), but it's silly to make personnel decisions based off of them. The fact you're even attempting to use his career playoff numbers as an argument in favor of moving him is laughable. He has a lifetime postseason OPS of .780 that's pretty solid, definitely not "brutal" like you're suggesting. I mean in the playoffs you are facing the best teams in the league with the best pitching staffs in the league, with a mountain of scouting reports. You're whole argument is pathetic. If the team is so much better off without Holliday explain what you would do. What player(s) out there would so obviously make this team better? How are you sure that moving Craig to left and giving Adams a shot at first would out produce Holliday, both in the regular season and in the postseason?   

I don't think anyone has fixated on any one aspect of your argument, we all know the entire thing is dumb. I mean the guy has a full no trade clause and you still feel the need to discuss trading the guy. 

You keep saying over and over that trading him will make the Cardinals better, let’s hear it then. What specifically should Mo do once he magically gets Holliday to waive his NTC? What players should be brought in? Who should Mo target in a deal? How will sticking unproven minor leaguers and big league part timers into the everyday lineup outperform Holliday?

I'd love to hear your grand scheme on making the Cards better while removing one of the 10 best hitters in all of baseball from the everyday lineup.

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Posted: 11/21/2012 7:06 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



crdswmn wrote:

I think this thread has exhausted any useful purpose it might have had.  All I keep reading are the same old arguments over and over again, which to the bulk of us make absolutely no sense.  And it is all irrelevant anyway, because Matt Holliday is not going to be traded.  And I don't like how annoyed I am getting over this because it just makes me cranky.  I'm out of this ridiculous discussion.
Well said.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 8:12 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



crdswmn wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
crdswmn wrote:
cardinalnationhouston wrote:
You are NOT wrong 5129. These are all just opinions really. I gave reasons too like he is replaceable for this club and makes big money for one. Number two is the back issue which i believe is a bigger problem than Matt will ever admit to. If this guy falls off the cliff this year or next i promise there will be a 100 guys here that will complain Moz held on to him too long. There is no doubt that he would net a significant return in young, cost controlled players while slashing 15 percent of your overall player salary budget. Without Matt our outfield could still be Beltran, Jay, Craig and Tavares. Adams and Carpenter at first base. I would go with that right now. Lets not write off Beltran for 2014 just yet either. Sell high to an AL team this year is NOt stupid in this case. Unless they can shed Westie or Furcals contracts then this is the one subtraction that provides $$$ for going forward.


crdswmn wrote:

This is all of it in a nutshell.  It all boils down to those three words.  For every Holliday basher/hater I have ever encountered this is the central theme.  All of the Holliday bashers/haters are offended by his contract.  Everything else is just window dressing.  

Guess what?  It's Bill DeWitt's money.  He's done just fine spending it.  The Cardinals have two WS titles since he bought the club.  I don't think he needs help from the peanut gallery.
First off i am not your old man so don't tell me what i REALLY mean! I don't give two flips if Dewitt throws every dime of his in the Mississippi river. I could care less what he does with his money except where it applies to the team budget. Suggesting that i care what he does is really quite ignorant. The 18 million that Matt makes could be used to improve the team elsewhere as i have clearly stated. Some of you fixate on what you want me to say and ignore all the rest. No one is saying that he should be released or DfA. He would bring a significant return b/c he is a very good hitter which i also clearly said. If he was Shane Robinson we would not even having this discussion b/c Shane has little value. Holli could be a couple of young cost controlled players while also freeing up 18 million to spend on upgrades elsewhere. Our top prospect is heading to St.Louis on a bullet according to many scouts and he projects at guess where? Left field. Craig also plays the position and IMO plays it better than Holli. He also out hit Matt last despite some peoples claims that Matt was the teams best hitter last year.Craig hit .307 to .295 for Matt. Holli had 5 more Hr and 10 more Rbi but it took an extra 130 ABs to do it.Their OPS and doubles were almost identicle. Craig clearly did better with RISP but i can't find that stat but it was somewhere close to .100 points BA if i remember right. The most off base thing i have heard in ages on this board is that playoff numbers don't matter b/c it is such a small sample size. WOW! Matts OPS is a full .130 points lower in the playoffs compared to regular season. That is a HUGE difference not to mention his repeated mistakes at the most important times. Do i really need to name his playoff gaffes? I think we are all aware of them but some want to act like it just doesn't matter. I guess there is not much you can say really b/c his playoff performance speaks for itself. What are we playing for here anyways? I thought it was to win titles. How are playoff numbers irrelevant? By the way that small sample size is over 157 AB's. Not really that small.
You say you don't care how he spends his money but then you presume to suggest  that you know better than he does about the team budget.  Are you his accountant?  What qualifications do you have that makes you superior to him in deciding how he wants to allocate his budget?  Perhaps he believes that the money he pays Holliday is a wise allocation of resources.  Perhaps he knows his budget much better than you do?

You don't like Holliday and you don't like his contract, so therefore you are to be the decider?  How arrogant of you.

I think this thread has exhausted any useful purpose it might have had.  All I keep reading are the same old arguments over and over again, which to the bulk of us make absolutely no sense.  And it is all irrelevant anyway, because Matt Holliday is not going to be traded.  And I don't like how annoyed I am getting over this because it just makes me cranky.  I'm out of this ridiculous discussion.
Holy, Moly! I feel like i am at the Dick Chaney school of communication. You know, just keep saying something over and over and that makes it true. For the last time i DO NOT hate Matt Holliday! Heck i never even met the man. Actually what i have posted is that i like Matt. Would love to meet him. I have said that Holli plays the game the right way and plays hard. I have NEVER said different. He is the kind of guy you want on your team. he is well liked and highly respected. Is that clear enough for you guys? Stop trying to pin that tag on me. I defy any of you to find a single post were i say Matt does not play hard, is a bad guy or i don't like him. If you cant prove me wrong then please get off of it. This is same garbage i received when i said Brendan Ryan was a awful hitter. Why can't you understand that these are two different things? What would my motive be for hating a guy i never met that i root for every game? The why not trade Moline too then comments are quite comical but that is a whole other discussion. Some day i will explain to you two why a catcher is more vital than a left fielder. I have given reasons why this makes sense. Left field is the position we can cover the easiest IMO. To answer your question about the roster i personally would add a starting shortstop. I think they are in big trouble at that position. Furcal was awful the last four months when healthy and I see Kozma as a utility player. I would love to have Elvis Andrus on the club but that is no secret. Unless they can dump Furcal that is about 15 Million for SS. The money is not available from what i have read. Trading Holli would allow this with about 8 Mill more for a starting pitcher or to add vets at Loogy and a stronger bench. I thought the bench was a big disadvantage for Matheny and may help explain the teams terrible record in extra innings. You would not just be subtracting Holli for giggles you have to include the additions in an overall assessment. Does the team get better? Well no one really knows that for sure but it would allow a more well rounded roster. This team has right handed power hitters like Craig, Freese, Molina and Beltran so it is an area of strength that Moz could deal from. The NTC clause is important but not a deal breaker IMO. Guys being traded with a NTC is not something from ancient history. It happens every year. It does give Matt a lot of leverage though. He has done a good job here and has given his all so he must be treated with respect that he has earned. I think Matt knows that baseball is a business though and it IS NOT personal. Cards would have to trade him to a place he will be happy so that could work against us. I am not claiming to have all the answers, this is just one option.

GO CARDS!
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Posted: 11/21/2012 9:43 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 


Holy, Moly! I feel like i am at the Dick Chaney school of communication. You know, just keep saying something over and over and that makes it true. For the last time i DO NOT hate Matt Holliday! Heck i never even met the man. Actually what i have posted is that i like Matt. Would love to meet him. I have said that Holli plays the game the right way and plays hard. I have NEVER said different. He is the kind of guy you want on your team. he is well liked and highly respected. Is that clear enough for you guys? Stop trying to pin that tag on me. I defy any of you to find a single post were i say Matt does not play hard, is a bad guy or i don't like him. If you cant prove me wrong then please get off of it. This is same garbage i received when i said Brendan Ryan was a awful hitter. Why can't you understand that these are two different things? What would my motive be for hating a guy i never met that i root for every game?

Considering you haven’t made a single logical argument as to why the Cardinals should trade Holliday and you have spoken ill of him in the past with similar reasoning it’s only reasonable for us to assume that you have a bias against the man. It’s a fair assumption.


The why not trade Moline too then comments are quite comical but that is a whole other discussion. Some day i will explain to you two why a catcher is more vital than a left fielder.

I have no idea who Moline is but I’ll assume you meant Molina. Please don’t attempt to explain the importance of a catcher. I’m pretty sure it’ll result into similar incoherent ramblings (besides anyone who has ever watched a baseball game realizes that catcher is a much tougher defensive position than LF that's obvious). The point of bringing Molina up is to illustrate how ridiculous it is to trade a great player because of playoff performance, injury concerns and reasonably large salaries.

I have given reasons why this makes sense.


You haven’t given a single reason that has made any sense whatsoever.


Left field is the position we can cover the easiest IMO. To answer your question about the roster i personally would add a starting shortstop. I think they are in big trouble at that position. Furcal was awful the last four months when healthy and I see Kozma as a utility player. I would love to have Elvis Andrus on the club but that is no secret.


It’s pretty obvious this team is weak at SS and the vast majority of Cardinals fans would agree that adding a great SS would be beneficial to this club. But how in the hell are the Cardinals going to acquire Andrus? Are you suggesting that the Cardinals trade Holliday for Andrus? That won’t happen, a few weeks ago the Rangers were talking to the D’Backs about Upton. When the D’backs asked for Andrus or Profar the Rangers said no. The Rangers don’t seem to enthusiastic about trading either one of their young shortstops. So try again. Find me a SS that is going to provide the same amount of wins as Holliday for less than his 17 Mill salary who will be available this offseason since you’re suggesting he be traded this offseason.


Unless they can dump Furcal that is about 15 Million for SS. The money is not available from what i have read. Trading Holli would allow this with about 8 Mill more for a starting pitcher or to add vets at Loogy and a stronger bench. I thought the bench was a big disadvantage for Matheny and may help explain the teams terrible record in extra innings.


So let me get this straight you want to get rid of this team’s best hitter so you can add another starter when the team already has Carpenter, Wainwright, Westbrook, Garcia, Lynn, Miller, Rosenthal and Kelly? You want to go out and spend money on a LOOGY? You realize top notch LOOGYs get Multiple Year contracts in the 4-6 Million annual range? They are incredibly inconsistent, there is a reason why you never see the Cards go buy a top notch LOOGY because there contracts can hurt, much more than a Top Notch everyday player’s contract can hurt. The bench was bad, but it’s not like bench players cost tons of money. The team has plenty of cash to fill out a bench as is.


 You would not just be subtracting Holli for giggles you have to include the additions in an overall assessment. Does the team get better? Well no one really knows that for sure but it would allow a more well rounded roster. This team has right handed power hitters like Craig, Freese, Molina and Beltran
(he’s actually a switch hitter) so it is an area of strength that Moz could deal from.


I’m pretty sure the team gets worse. I can’t think of any logical reason how a team trades their best hitter and actually becomes a better team. Freese is a good hitter but not even close to the caliber of Holliday. Molina is only 2 season removed from being a .262/.329/.342 hitter, I don’t expect serious regression but I also don’t expect him to put up an OPS over .850 again. The fact you even mention Craig and Beltran is hilarious. Talk about two guys who have had injury and consitency problems. Allen Craig’s max games in a season is less than Holliday’s minimum. Beltran was one of the most inconsistent offensive players on the team last year, not to mention his knees are shot. You want to trade one of the most consistently great hitters year in, year out because this team has a bunch of players who haven’t proven they’re good ML hitters for more than two seasons and a guy who completely fell off in the second half. This makes absolutely no sense at all.


The NTC clause is important but not a deal breaker IMO. Guys being traded with a NTC is not something from ancient history. It happens every year. It does give Matt a lot of leverage though.


Does it happen? Yes, but usually only in cases where a player no longer wants to play for that particular team. I don’t think a guy who plays in a city that he seems to love and for a team he seems to love will even consider it.


He has done a good job here and has given his all so he must be treated with respect that he has earned.


I can’t believe you actually typed that sentence.


I think Matt knows that baseball is a business though and it IS NOT personal. Cards would have to trade him to a place he will be happy so that could work against us. I am not claiming to have all the answers, this is just one option.


So basically you’re floating an option that you believe is in the Cards best interest but you have no idea as to how to execute it. You don’t know what players are available via trade or free agency or what they might cost, but you think trading an elite hitter is in this team’s best interest. Glad we cleared that up.

This was ridiculous from the start and has only become worse. I can’t continue to discuss this. You haven’t made any case whatsoever for your argument. I basically feel the same as crdswmn. You keep typing out the same irrational arguments over and over again. Not a single poster has agreed with you on any meaningful level. I can’t continue to discuss an irrelevant topic because Mo will not trade Holliday because well he’s smarter than you and he couldn’t if he wanted to. This thread has gotten to the point where I just get annoyed reading your arguments. I’m convinced no matter what I type in a reply to you, you will continue to think that trading Holliday is a good idea. I’m pretty sure you have something against the guy. That’s the only possible explanation I can think of for someone to maintain this ridiculous idea for so long.


I’m out. 

Last edited 11/21/2012 9:49 PM by stlcards5129

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Posted: 11/22/2012 1:25 PM

Re: Trade Matt Holliday???? 



stlcards5129 wrote:

Holy, Moly! I feel like i am at the Dick Chaney school of communication. You know, just keep saying something over and over and that makes it true. For the last time i DO NOT hate Matt Holliday! Heck i never even met the man. Actually what i have posted is that i like Matt. Would love to meet him. I have said that Holli plays the game the right way and plays hard. I have NEVER said different. He is the kind of guy you want on your team. he is well liked and highly respected. Is that clear enough for you guys? Stop trying to pin that tag on me. I defy any of you to find a single post were i say Matt does not play hard, is a bad guy or i don't like him. If you cant prove me wrong then please get off of it. This is same garbage i received when i said Brendan Ryan was a awful hitter. Why can't you understand that these are two different things? What would my motive be for hating a guy i never met that i root for every game?

Considering you haven’t made a single logical argument as to why the Cardinals should trade Holliday and you have spoken ill of him in the past with similar reasoning it’s only reasonable for us to assume that you have a bias against the man. It’s a fair assumption.


The why not trade Moline too then comments are quite comical but that is a whole other discussion. Some day i will explain to you two why a catcher is more vital than a left fielder.

I have no idea who Moline is but I’ll assume you meant Molina. Please don’t attempt to explain the importance of a catcher. I’m pretty sure it’ll result into similar incoherent ramblings (besides anyone who has ever watched a baseball game realizes that catcher is a much tougher defensive position than LF that's obvious). The point of bringing Molina up is to illustrate how ridiculous it is to trade a great player because of playoff performance, injury concerns and reasonably large salaries.

I have given reasons why this makes sense.


You haven’t given a single reason that has made any sense whatsoever.


Left field is the position we can cover the easiest IMO. To answer your question about the roster i personally would add a starting shortstop. I think they are in big trouble at that position. Furcal was awful the last four months when healthy and I see Kozma as a utility player. I would love to have Elvis Andrus on the club but that is no secret.


It’s pretty obvious this team is weak at SS and the vast majority of Cardinals fans would agree that adding a great SS would be beneficial to this club. But how in the hell are the Cardinals going to acquire Andrus? Are you suggesting that the Cardinals trade Holliday for Andrus? That won’t happen, a few weeks ago the Rangers were talking to the D’Backs about Upton. When the D’backs asked for Andrus or Profar the Rangers said no. The Rangers don’t seem to enthusiastic about trading either one of their young shortstops. So try again. Find me a SS that is going to provide the same amount of wins as Holliday for less than his 17 Mill salary who will be available this offseason since you’re suggesting he be traded this offseason.


Unless they can dump Furcal that is about 15 Million for SS. The money is not available from what i have read. Trading Holli would allow this with about 8 Mill more for a starting pitcher or to add vets at Loogy and a stronger bench. I thought the bench was a big disadvantage for Matheny and may help explain the teams terrible record in extra innings.


So let me get this straight you want to get rid of this team’s best hitter so you can add another starter when the team already has Carpenter, Wainwright, Westbrook, Garcia, Lynn, Miller, Rosenthal and Kelly? You want to go out and spend money on a LOOGY? You realize top notch LOOGYs get Multiple Year contracts in the 4-6 Million annual range? They are incredibly inconsistent, there is a reason why you never see the Cards go buy a top notch LOOGY because there contracts can hurt, much more than a Top Notch everyday player’s contract can hurt. The bench was bad, but it’s not like bench players cost tons of money. The team has plenty of cash to fill out a bench as is.


 You would not just be subtracting Holli for giggles you have to include the additions in an overall assessment. Does the team get better? Well no one really knows that for sure but it would allow a more well rounded roster. This team has right handed power hitters like Craig, Freese, Molina and Beltran
(he’s actually a switch hitter) so it is an area of strength that Moz could deal from.


I’m pretty sure the team gets worse. I can’t think of any logical reason how a team trades their best hitter and actually becomes a better team. Freese is a good hitter but not even close to the caliber of Holliday. Molina is only 2 season removed from being a .262/.329/.342 hitter, I don’t expect serious regression but I also don’t expect him to put up an OPS over .850 again. The fact you even mention Craig and Beltran is hilarious. Talk about two guys who have had injury and consitency problems. Allen Craig’s max games in a season is less than Holliday’s minimum. Beltran was one of the most inconsistent offensive players on the team last year, not to mention his knees are shot. You want to trade one of the most consistently great hitters year in, year out because this team has a bunch of players who haven’t proven they’re good ML hitters for more than two seasons and a guy who completely fell off in the second half. This makes absolutely no sense at all.


The NTC clause is important but not a deal breaker IMO. Guys being traded with a NTC is not something from ancient history. It happens every year. It does give Matt a lot of leverage though.


Does it happen? Yes, but usually only in cases where a player no longer wants to play for that particular team. I don’t think a guy who plays in a city that he seems to love and for a team he seems to love will even consider it.


He has done a good job here and has given his all so he must be treated with respect that he has earned.


I can’t believe you actually typed that sentence.


I think Matt knows that baseball is a business though and it IS NOT personal. Cards would have to trade him to a place he will be happy so that could work against us. I am not claiming to have all the answers, this is just one option.


So basically you’re floating an option that you believe is in the Cards best interest but you have no idea as to how to execute it. You don’t know what players are available via trade or free agency or what they might cost, but you think trading an elite hitter is in this team’s best interest. Glad we cleared that up.

This was ridiculous from the start and has only become worse. I can’t continue to discuss this. You haven’t made any case whatsoever for your argument. I basically feel the same as crdswmn. You keep typing out the same irrational arguments over and over again. Not a single poster has agreed with you on any meaningful level. I can’t continue to discuss an irrelevant topic because Mo will not trade Holliday because well he’s smarter than you and he couldn’t if he wanted to. This thread has gotten to the point where I just get annoyed reading your arguments. I’m convinced no matter what I type in a reply to you, you will continue to think that trading Holliday is a good idea. I’m pretty sure you have something against the guy. That’s the only possible explanation I can think of for someone to maintain this ridiculous idea for so long.


I’m out. 

This is complete rambling even for you Dude. you keep saying that Holliday is our best hitter even after i gave you the numbers that show Craig outhit Matt last year. In fact Matt has not been the teams best hitter in any year here. That was Pujols and now its Craig. Here are some more numbers although i am sure you will say they don't matter just like playoff numbers With RISP Craig hit an incredible .400 - 1.130 while Holliday hit .253 -.755 OPS. As the game gets late it gets worse for Holliday just as i had said. I found this in the category called CLUTCH on Baseball reference. In close and late situations Matt hit .230, with 2 out and RISP he hit .190. If you watched the games instead of box scores you would already know how bad Holliday was in the clutch last year. His playoff numbers also clearly support this. His OPS in the playoffs is a full 130 points lower than regular season for his career. Thats 157 ABS. He has had one huge playoff series and 5 bad ones since coming here. I will say that i don't think we beat Milwaukee in 2011 w/o his bat. We are very weak at SS while we have two guys that could step into left field. I thought Craig and Tavares were considered young studs until i got to this thread. Here they are called "unproven". I have also demonstrated that we have right handed power in four other hitters so it is not like this lineup is garbage w/o Matt. Thanks for the Beltran clarification. I had no idea that he was a switch hitterrolleyes. Does that mean he no longer provides right handed power? The Molina statement is ignorant no matter how you try to spin it. Your entire argument against this seems to be well, Matt is a .900 OPS guy every year. Actually his career OPS is .923. That is fantastic and i am not denying that he can hit, never have. I am not as worried about Beltran knees as Hollis back, they are two different things. Beltran swings smooth with his power generated in his hips and wrists, a very non violence, easy swing. Holliday is the complete opposite with every swing a violent release. He generates with his entire body which is bad news for his back. I also think it comical that someone posted he only missed three games last year due to the tightening back. It affected all year on and off as it did the year before too. This is a reoccurring problem as back injuries usually are. I have the strong belief that we will see a decline in Matts numbers from here on out. I believe it has been downplayed by Holliday b/c he is a warrior and will play through it as much as possible. That is why him sitting in game 6 last year is alarming to me. IMO moving him now would be wise with Oscar just about ready for St.Louis and a glaring need at shortstop. Matt might just agree to go to the Rangers as he is from Oklahoma and Texas has the DH which i think he is perfect for. Might even prolong his career.

GO CARDS!
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