619illinibooyah wrote:

grayssportsalmanac wrote:

619illinibooyah wrote: Would you consider dangling Carlos Martinez and Adams for Cabrera?

what happened to the throw up icon?

You got to give something to get something. You give up an arm and a power bat. Both project as major league material and you wouldn't give up Rosenthal, Miller or Kelly.

This isn't Fantasy Football where you can just hornswoggle some schlep into trading Ray Rice for nothing. Cleveland has the advantage of asking for more because they've got the 2 time all star and we have a glaring hole up the middle if Furcal isn't ready to go.

I would give up adams, cmart no way....

but speaking of fantasy trades this (potential) deal reeks of it...we are trading like we need power, we really dont. We need  glove...

grayssportsalmanac wrote:

619illinibooyah wrote:

grayssportsalmanac wrote:

619illinibooyah wrote: Would you consider dangling Carlos Martinez and Adams for Cabrera?

what happened to the throw up icon?

You got to give something to get something. You give up an arm and a power bat. Both project as major league material and you wouldn't give up Rosenthal, Miller or Kelly.

This isn't Fantasy Football where you can just hornswoggle some schlep into trading Ray Rice for nothing. Cleveland has the advantage of asking for more because they've got the 2 time all star and we have a glaring hole up the middle if Furcal isn't ready to go.

I would give up adams, cmart no way....

but speaking of fantasy trades this (potential) deal reeks of it...we are trading like we need power, we really dont. We need  glove...

I agree 100% with this, but what the Cardinals really need is to get more value out of the SS position. You take what the market bears. If Cabrera provides the most value for the lowest price you go for it, if not you move on. If Cleveland was to accept say Adams and Jenkins for Cabrera, I say sure why not give Cabrera a shot. If they want someone like Martinez, I say no. I'd rather give the big league reps to some combination of Jackson/Kozma/FA.

stlcards5129 wrote:

grayssportsalmanac wrote:

619illinibooyah wrote:

grayssportsalmanac wrote:

619illinibooyah wrote: Would you consider ...?

what happened to the throw up icon?

You got to give something to get something. ...

... We need  glove...

... I'd rather give the big league reps to some combination of Jackson/Kozma/FA.

The more I think about Cabrera, the less I like the prospect of paying his salary.  Never mind giving up legit (and cheap!) prospects for him. 

If we truly value the glove over offensive production, then I see no reason to NOT give Koz (or Jackson) a lengthy audition for the position while paying the MLB minimum in the process.  If Raffey enjoys a measure of good health, that's even better.

A non-tender of McClellan and trading Schumaker goes a ways toward salary. There's extra money from post season play, so salary at 6.5 Mil. for 2013 shouldn't be too tough. By 2014, Beltran and Furcal come off the books and probably Carpenter. I think the Card's scouts will have determined how good a defensive shortstop Cabrera is. I always thought of him being pretty good.

I was lukewarm about acquiring Cabrera, when I saw on Fangraphs that his defense was rated below average. A groundball-heavy rotation makes shortstop glovework all the more important.

But then I looked at Baseball-Reference.

According to their metrics, Asdrubal has actually been above average with the leather. Every year. (And, back at Fangraphs, the Fans Scouting Report on Cabrera has been solid each of the past three seasons. So we probably shouldn't assume that he's a liability in the field.)

And at the plate? Not only has he turned into a very good hitter relative to his position, but he might be the "clutchiest" hitter in all of baseball. Check out his career splits:

Bases empty:      .251 average, and .372 slugging.
One man on:       .307 average, with a .460 slg. pct.
Multiple men on: .332 average, and a .508 slugging

That's nuts, huh? And that's six seasons of data. You put this guy in the 6 or 7-hole, in the Redbird lineup, and he might drive in 80+ runs.

I'm not sure exactly what I'd give up in a trade. But as I look closer, I like the guy more and more. And more. ;)

This guy could resemble Edgar Renteria, but with more power.

Theriot made a handful of those flashy plays when he played for the Cardinals.  Didn't make him Ozzie Smith.

Your "eyes" see those plays and that is what your brain remembers the most and is how you form your perception, especially of those players you don't see on an everyday basis.   We have defensive metrics to tell us the real truth, not what our brain processes as reality from our eyes.

It's the math people.  Ask Nate Silver.

BTW, Fangraphs defensive metrics are better than BR.

What would you think about including Furcal in the trade to offset some of the immediate cost?  The pot might need to be sweetened if he was included but it would help alleviate some of the issue in St. Louis if that was done.

crdswmn wrote: Theriot made a handful of those flashy plays when he played for the Cardinals.  Didn't make him Ozzie Smith.

Your "eyes" see those plays and that is what your brain remembers the most and is how you form your perception, especially of those players you don't see on an everyday basis.   We have defensive metrics to tell us the real truth, not what our brain processes as reality from our eyes.

It's the math people.  Ask Nate Silver.

BTW, Fangraphs defensive metrics are better than BR.

This is why I cannot get too excited about anyone's defensive metrics. One site's advanced metrics apparently indicates the player is above average defensively while another suggests he is below average. (Though not relevant here, the sites disagree on the basic definition of WAR.) No wonder these metrics lack credibility with some.

Domeboys wrote:

crdswmn wrote: Theriot made a handful of those flashy plays when he played for the Cardinals.  Didn't make him Ozzie Smith.

Your "eyes" see those plays and that is what your brain remembers the most and is how you form your perception, especially of those players you don't see on an everyday basis.   We have defensive metrics to tell us the real truth, not what our brain processes as reality from our eyes.

It's the math people.  Ask Nate Silver.

BTW, Fangraphs defensive metrics are better than BR.

This is why I cannot get too excited about anyone's defensive metrics. One site's advanced metrics apparently indicates the player is above average defensively while another suggests he is below average. (Though not relevant here, the sites disagree on the basic definition of WAR.) No wonder these metrics lack credibility with some.

Preach it brother Brian! I hate metrics in general and fielding metrics even more so. Baseball is played on the field, not on a ledger. I am amazed at how often these things tell the opposite of what we see with our own eyes.

Domeboys wrote: 
This is why I cannot get too excited about anyone's defensive metrics. One site's advanced metrics apparently indicates the player is above average defensively while another suggests he is below average. (Though not relevant here, the sites disagree on the basic definition of WAR.) No wonder these metrics lack credibility with some.

Me too. Despite being a heavy proponent of most advanced metrics, I have little confidence in what they can provide on the defensive side. I've said this a few times but am glad to have an example to speak to. Even after following this thread closely I still can not get a good sense of what I really should believe about Cabrera defensively.

cardinalnationhouston wrote:

Domeboys wrote:

crdswmn wrote: Theriot made a handful of those flashy plays when he played for the Cardinals.  Didn't make him Ozzie Smith.

Your "eyes" see those plays and that is what your brain remembers the most and is how you form your perception, especially of those players you don't see on an everyday basis.   We have defensive metrics to tell us the real truth, not what our brain processes as reality from our eyes.

It's the math people.  Ask Nate Silver.

BTW, Fangraphs defensive metrics are better than BR.

This is why I cannot get too excited about anyone's defensive metrics. One site's advanced metrics apparently indicates the player is above average defensively while another suggests he is below average. (Though not relevant here, the sites disagree on the basic definition of WAR.) No wonder these metrics lack credibility with some.

Preach it brother Brian! I hate metrics in general and fielding metrics even more so. Baseball is played on the field, not on a ledger. I am amazed at how often these things tell the opposite of what we see with our own eyes.

LOL I'd love for you to find me one offensive metric that told you the opposite of what you see with your eyes. I agree with the defensive metrics, generally speaking. They can be inaccurate (the only one I take seriously is UZR with lots of innings played).

BobReed wrote: I was lukewarm about acquiring Cabrera, when I saw on Fangraphs that his defense was rated below average. A groundball-heavy rotation makes shortstop glovework all the more important.

But then I looked at Baseball-Reference.

According to their metrics, Asdrubal has actually been above average with the leather. Every year. (And, back at Fangraphs, the Fans Scouting Report on Cabrera has been solid each of the past three seasons. So we probably shouldn't assume that he's a liability in the field.)

And at the plate? Not only has he turned into a very good hitter relative to his position, but he might be the "clutchiest" hitter in all of baseball. Check out his career splits:

Bases empty:      .251 average, and .372 slugging.
One man on:       .307 average, with a .460 slg. pct.
Multiple men on: .332 average, and a .508 slugging

That's nuts, huh? And that's six seasons of data. You put this guy in the 6 or 7-hole, in the Redbird lineup, and he might drive in 80+ runs.

I'm not sure exactly what I'd give up in a trade. But as I look closer, I like the guy more and more. And more. ;)

THANK YOU!

I feel like people aren't listening at all here.

I don't know about his defense, but it certainly hasn't been a "we're all in agreement he's awful" in a Hanley Rameriz sort of way. Cabrera has a lot going for him.

UncleDenny wrote: A non-tender of McClellan and trading Schumaker goes a ways toward salary. There's extra money from post season play, so salary at 6.5 Mil. for 2013 shouldn't be too tough. By 2014, Beltran and Furcal come off the books and probably Carpenter. I think the Card's scouts will have determined how good a defensive shortstop Cabrera is. I always thought of him being pretty good.

I agree and here's the thing, we don't have ANY other holes on our team. Only a RH bench option and a LH reliever and we could use Robinson/Freeman again if we wanted to and I wouldn't be all that upset.

SS is precisely the position we should look into upgrading.  It's our only potentially below-average hole with below-average replacement options.

Every other position is nearly two or three deep including starting pitching.

grayssportsalmanac wrote:

619illinibooyah wrote:

grayssportsalmanac wrote:

619illinibooyah wrote: Would you consider dangling Carlos Martinez and Adams for Cabrera?

what happened to the throw up icon?

You got to give something to get something. You give up an arm and a power bat. Both project as major league material and you wouldn't give up Rosenthal, Miller or Kelly.

This isn't Fantasy Football where you can just hornswoggle some schlep into trading Ray Rice for nothing. Cleveland has the advantage of asking for more because they've got the 2 time all star and we have a glaring hole up the middle if Furcal isn't ready to go.

I would give up adams, cmart no way....

but speaking of fantasy trades this (potential) deal reeks of it...we are trading like we need power, we really dont. We need  glove...

We didn't have a good defensive SS at all this past year and did ok.  Now if that SS was an above average hitter as well, we would be that much better off.

I'm not talking about sacrificing defense for offense (that would be going with Ryan Jackson).  I'm talking about getting better. Cabrera is a LOT better offensively and is entering his prime.

It's too bad the Reds can't be our trade partner with either Gregorious or Cozart on the block.  That would be the perfect fit.  We could trade them Motte.

crdswmn wrote:

Theriot made a handful of those flashy plays when he played for the Cardinals.  Didn't make him Ozzie Smith.

I don't think I have ever Ever EVER seen Theriot make a "flashy" play in any way that would resemble Ozzie Smith. I don't think ANYONE has ever argued that Theriot was even an average SS defensively. I really don't see why anyone would bring him up except to slander Cabrera at this point.  Why not compare him to Hanley Rameriz defensively?  That would make infinitely more sense in my opinion. I don't know.

PadsFS wrote:

crdswmn wrote:

Theriot made a handful of those flashy plays when he played for the Cardinals.  Didn't make him Ozzie Smith.

I don't think I have ever Ever EVER seen Theriot make a "flashy" play in any way that would resemble Ozzie Smith. I don't think ANYONE has ever argued that Theriot was even an average SS defensively. I really don't see why anyone would bring him up except to slander Cabrera at this point.  Why not compare him to Hanley Rameriz defensively?  That would make infinitely more sense in my opinion. I don't know.

I agree Pads. Bringing up Theriot is the same as Brendan being mentioned in this thread. It was said by 5129 that " no one wanted to bring Ryan back" Then why mention him at all here? Same with Theriot. I think the problem is the same as it always is. People are listening Pads, i believe we just all communicate and process info differently. This thread is a head scratcher to me though b/c we are talking about a player that is still improving and has big time skills. He is an immediate upgrade and would give us our first star at SS  since Renteria. This guy makes us better by a long shot. By the way Indians fan seems to really like him and he is a season ticket holder. He must have poor eye sight though b/c the defensive metrics disagree with him. Just ridiculous!

cardinalnationhouston wrote:

PadsFS wrote:

crdswmn wrote:

Theriot made a handful of those flashy plays when he played for the Cardinals.  Didn't make him Ozzie Smith.

I don't think I have ever Ever EVER seen Theriot make a "flashy" play in any way that would resemble Ozzie Smith. I don't think ANYONE has ever argued that Theriot was even an average SS defensively. I really don't see why anyone would bring him up except to slander Cabrera at this point.  Why not compare him to Hanley Rameriz defensively?  That would make infinitely more sense in my opinion. I don't know.

I agree Pads. Bringing up Theriot is the same as Brendan being mentioned in this thread. It was said by 5129 that " no one wanted to bring Ryan back" Then why mention him at all here? Same with Theriot. I think the problem is the same as it always is. People are listening Pads, i believe we just all communicate and process info differently. This thread is a head scratcher to me though b/c we are talking about a player that is still improving and has big time skills. He is an immediate upgrade and would give us our first star at SS  since Renteria. This guy makes us better by a long shot. By the way Indians fan seems to really like him and he is a season ticket holder. He must have poor eye sight though b/c the defensive metrics disagree with him. Just ridiculous!

Wow. That quote is taken entirely taken out of context. The quote were Brendan Ryan is mentioned is as follows "I'm not saying going full Brendan Ryan here, but look for someone with a solid glove who maybe doesn't have power but hits for acceptable average" This quote caused you to to make a totally ignorant comment of " By the way Brendan Ryan hit .194 last year .194! His carreer )PS is .630. He is basically Cesar Itzuris w/o the bat. He is NOT wanted back by the Cardinals. GET OVER IT!". Personally I'd love to get Brendan Ryan back. So please don't put words in my mouth.


You're totally off on the Season ticket holders evaluation of Cabrera defensively. His quote is as follows "Secondly, his defensive range is not elite by any means but most of his issues have been in regard to making routine plays. He'll boot his fair share of those." To me this sounds like Ryan Theriot who can make an occasional great play. For what it's worth the metrics kind of agree with his comments, he has poor range. Comparing Theriot to Cabrera defensively is valid, but as I've said earlier in the thread Cabrera has offensive value which makes a comparison not entirely fair. 

The most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread is your comparison where you call Brendan Ryan "Cesar Izturis without the bat". Ryan is a better defender and a better career hitter. 

Please don't misquote me again. 

I think giving them Kelly, Lynn, and a PTBNL could get the job done. And we live with Freese at 3rd Cabrera can't be worse at SS.

Sawatski wrote: From Terry Pluto of the Cleveland Plain-Dealer:

"Cabrera has two years left on his deal at $6.5 million and $10 million.

Cabrera averaged 20 homers and 80 RBI while batting .271 during the past two seasons, making the All-Star team. But his declining defense is alarming for a 27-year-old as he battles weight problems. His numbers have fallen down in the second half of the past two seasons. In 2011-12, he batted .290 (.834 OPS) before the All-Star break and .248 (.698) after.

Physical conditioning was an issue."

I don't know anything about Mr. Pluto, but I don't like the sound of that. It reminds me of Carlos Baerga.

Pluto is a columnist with the Plain Dealer and is by far the most respected sportswriter among Cleveland fans.  He has written a number of sports books including (with Earl Weaver) the still highly regarded Weaver on Strategy.

Pluto has been very close to the FO and often when he writes offers the FO Thinking.

In any event, Cabrera has come to camp the last two years both overweight and out of shape.  He has also struggled in the last half of the last two seasons both at bat and in the field.  In fairness part of his struggle in 2012 was he was overused much of the season.  The Tribe didn't have a backup at short that Acta was comfortable playing so Cabrera didn't get many off days.

The fielding metrics only tell part of the story about his defense.  On occasions he can be a split second slow in covering the bag on potential DPs and attempted steals and it seems to me that he can be slightly slow in putting down the tag om attempted steals.

My observation is also that on a number of DPs that should have been turned and weren't Cabrera was at fault.

On the other hand, he makes a number of spectacular defensive plays.

While having decent speed he is not the most intelligent base runner I've ever seen.

Someone down thread observed Cabrera was decent at second and I'd agree.  Cabrera as he gets a little older almost certainly ends up at second or third because of his body type.

Your comparison of him with Baerga is an interesting one and I can see why you made but in his prime Baerga was a much better hitter, better base runner, could bunt and was overall a better situational hitter.  Most importantly Baerga played the game harder and was a clubhouse leader.

The player I tend to think of when I think of Cabrera is Ronnie Belliard.

Notwithstanding the tone of this post I consider Cabrera well above average overall and someone that would help a contender and I'm not at all anxious for the Tribe to trade him.