People hear the name Drew in stl and start runnin. I wouldn't be opposed to signing him to a year with a club option or getting Cabrera. His defensive numbers are a bit suspect but I would hope the return on the offensive end would equal it out a bit. This is a 2 time all star were talking about.

Oh and while it appears on paper we have a lethal lineup. This is a different season and that lineup last year had trouble scoring runs at times.

crdswmn wrote:

PadsFS wrote:

crdswmn wrote:

Domeboys wrote:

crdswmn wrote: I will go on record as opposed to trading for Cabrera.  His defense at ss is no better than Ryan Theriot's.  I have been and always will be opposed to sacrificing defense to get a little more offense.  Especially when the Cardinals have a stacked offense already.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if the Cardinals do it.  As good as the Cardinals organization is, they have a major problem with never learning from their mistakes.  Which is why they will also sign another crappy left handed reliever from the trash heap.  J.C Romero 2.0.

Curious if that is a rant or if the metrics would back that up...

Ryan Theriot:  2009  UZR 3.7  DRS 0
                     2010  UZR -3.3  DRS -3
                     2011  UZR   -8.5  DRS -8

Asdrubal Cabrera:  2010  UZR  -7.7  DRS -1
                           2011  UZR  -11.3  DRS 3
                           2012  UZR  -9.0  DRS  -5

First, Cabrera's FRAA is positive for 2012 and generally hovers around zero:

http://www.baseballprospectus....rd.php?id=45398

Second, he has been on the other's recieving votes for several years on the fielding bible voting:

http://www.fieldingbible.com/c...tetally2011.asp

That said, maybe he is bad, but I don't think he could possibly be any worse that Theriot or Furcal this past year.

Also, Cabrera is going to be 27 next year. Right at the beginning of his prime AND he has already proven he can he 20+ HRs a year. Certainly something Theriot COULD NOT do.

Oh, and he'll be cheap for a SS.

So when are we going to stop worshipping the HR to the exclusion of everything else in baseball?  Until we have the worst defensive team in baseball? 

At some point, reason and logic says there has to be a balance.  The Cardinals have one of the best offensive lineups in baseball.  To keep focusing on offense to the exclusion of defense will trigger the law of diminishing returns.  Why not try to add some defense with a little less offense?  I'm not saying going full Brendan Ryan here, but look for someone with a solid glove who maybe doesn't have power but hits for acceptable average. And Asdrubal Cabrera is not that guy.

Cabrera's defense has been declining.  His offense has become a little shaky of late as well.  The team knows this, that is why they want to trade him.  Let's not bite.

To each their own. I think defense is a little overrated when compared to an elite offensive player at the same position.

PadsFS wrote:

crdswmn wrote:

PadsFS wrote:

crdswmn wrote:

Domeboys wrote:

crdswmn wrote: I will go on record as opposed to trading for Cabrera.  His defense at ss is no better than Ryan Theriot's.  I have been and always will be opposed to sacrificing defense to get a little more offense.  Especially when the Cardinals have a stacked offense already.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if the Cardinals do it.  As good as the Cardinals organization is, they have a major problem with never learning from their mistakes.  Which is why they will also sign another crappy left handed reliever from the trash heap.  J.C Romero 2.0.

Curious if that is a rant or if the metrics would back that up...

Ryan Theriot:  2009  UZR 3.7  DRS 0
                     2010  UZR -3.3  DRS -3
                     2011  UZR   -8.5  DRS -8

Asdrubal Cabrera:  2010  UZR  -7.7  DRS -1
                           2011  UZR  -11.3  DRS 3
                           2012  UZR  -9.0  DRS  -5

First, Cabrera's FRAA is positive for 2012 and generally hovers around zero:

http://www.baseballprospectus....rd.php?id=45398

Second, he has been on the other's recieving votes for several years on the fielding bible voting:

http://www.fieldingbible.com/c...tetally2011.asp

That said, maybe he is bad, but I don't think he could possibly be any worse that Theriot or Furcal this past year.

Also, Cabrera is going to be 27 next year. Right at the beginning of his prime AND he has already proven he can he 20+ HRs a year. Certainly something Theriot COULD NOT do.

Oh, and he'll be cheap for a SS.

So when are we going to stop worshipping the HR to the exclusion of everything else in baseball?  Until we have the worst defensive team in baseball? 

At some point, reason and logic says there has to be a balance.  The Cardinals have one of the best offensive lineups in baseball.  To keep focusing on offense to the exclusion of defense will trigger the law of diminishing returns.  Why not try to add some defense with a little less offense?  I'm not saying going full Brendan Ryan here, but look for someone with a solid glove who maybe doesn't have power but hits for acceptable average. And Asdrubal Cabrera is not that guy.

Cabrera's defense has been declining.  His offense has become a little shaky of late as well.  The team knows this, that is why they want to trade him.  Let's not bite.

To each their own. I think defense is a little overrated when compared to an elite offensive player at the same position.

I tend to agree if the guy can be average or just below average on D.  I took a look at a couple of Clev boards and they are expecting to get somewhere in the likes of Miller and Rosie in a deal for him.....guess they can always dream.

Would you consider dangling Carlos Martinez and Adams for Cabrera?

619illinibooyah wrote: Would you consider dangling Carlos Martinez and Adams for Cabrera?

what happened to the throw up icon?

Just say NO to Assdrubal"

I've seen comments to the effect why should we trade something good for another Ryan Theriot? A seriously below average defensive shortstop (per fangraphs) who can hit some. Been there, done that, it didn't work.

---------------------------------------------
--- blingboy wrote:

I've seen comments to the effect why should we trade something good for another Ryan Theriot? A seriously below average defensive shortstop (per fangraphs) who can hit some. Been there, done that, it didn't work.

---------------------------------------------

Yep. Before I entertained an asinine Assdrubal trade, I'd just as soon buy us a year at the position by sticking Descalso at short and yanking Wong up here a year early to commence his distinguished career at 2nd.

pugsleyaddams wrote:

---------------------------------------------
--- blingboy wrote:

I've seen comments to the effect why should we trade something good for another Ryan Theriot? A seriously below average defensive shortstop (per fangraphs) who can hit some. Been there, done that, it didn't work.

---------------------------------------------

Yep. Before I entertained an asinine Assdrubal trade, I'd just as soon buy us a year at the position by sticking Descalso at short and yanking Wong up here a year early to commence his distinguished career at 2nd.

You think Cabreara is the equivalent of Ryan Theriot or Descalso. There are e few folks here that could benefit from actually watching a game or two. This thread is like a train wreck, you just have to look no matter how messy it gets. By the way Brendan Ryan hit .194 last year .194! His carreer )PS is .630. He is basically Cesar Itzuris w/o the bat. He is NOT wanted back by the Cardinals. GET OVER IT!

PadsFS wrote:

crdswmn wrote:
So when are we going to stop worshipping the HR to the exclusion of everything else in baseball?  Until we have the worst defensive team in baseball? 

At some point, reason and logic says there has to be a balance.  The Cardinals have one of the best offensive lineups in baseball.  To keep focusing on offense to the exclusion of defense will trigger the law of diminishing returns.  Why not try to add some defense with a little less offense?  I'm not saying going full Brendan Ryan here, but look for someone with a solid glove who maybe doesn't have power but hits for acceptable average. And Asdrubal Cabrera is not that guy.

Cabrera's defense has been declining.  His offense has become a little shaky of late as well.  The team knows this, that is why they want to trade him.  Let's not bite.

To each their own. I think defense is a little overrated when compared to an elite offensive player at the same position.

One thing to keep in mind - I don't think you can just talk about offense and defense in a vacuum. You also have to consider the starting pitching you're throwing out there. I would be more comfortable sacrificing some offense for defense with a great pitching staff. But if my pitching staff was unstable, and I was highly dependent on hitting to be successful, I would probably prefer to go after the guy with the better bat. That's another angle of balance that I think crdswmn is probably getting at.

cardinalnationhouston wrote:

pugsleyaddams wrote:

---------------------------------------------
--- blingboy wrote:

I've seen comments to the effect why should we trade something good for another Ryan Theriot? A seriously below average defensive shortstop (per fangraphs) who can hit some. Been there, done that, it didn't work.

---------------------------------------------

Yep. Before I entertained an asinine Assdrubal trade, I'd just as soon buy us a year at the position by sticking Descalso at short and yanking Wong up here a year early to commence his distinguished career at 2nd.

You think Cabreara is the equivalent of Ryan Theriot or Descalso. There are e few folks here that could benefit from actually watching a game or two. This thread is like a train wreck, you just have to look no matter how messy it gets. By the way Brendan Ryan hit .194 last year .194! His carreer )PS is .630. He is basically Cesar Itzuris w/o the bat. He is NOT wanted back by the Cardinals. GET OVER IT!

Theriot and Cabrera and obviously not the same player, but they play the position comparably. Cabrera has the ability to make up for mistakes and make "web gems" because he has a solid arm, that is were his reputation comes from. The fact is he doesn't have tremendous range and really isn't a premium defensive SS. 

No one even brought up bringing Ryan back, but for all I care my SS can OPS .600 if he's the best in the business defensively. And no he isn't at all like Izturis. Practice what you preach and watch a game. Don't proliferate ignorance.

EDIT: Oh and I guarantee if Mo could trade Cleto back to the Mariners for Ryan he'd do it and not think twice about it.

blingboy wrote: I've seen comments to the effect why should we trade something good for another Ryan Theriot? A seriously below average defensive shortstop (per fangraphs) who can hit some. Been there, done that, it didn't work.

Hit some???  Are you kidding?


The list of better hitting SS's than Cabrera over the last 5 years:

Rameriz
Tulo
Reyes
Jeter


http://www.fangraphs.com/leade...0&sort=17,d

AND he's entering (going to be 27) his prime in 2013.

PadsFS wrote:

blingboy wrote: I've seen comments to the effect why should we trade something good for another Ryan Theriot? A seriously below average defensive shortstop (per fangraphs) who can hit some. Been there, done that, it didn't work.

Hit some???  Are you kidding?


The list of better hitting SS's than Cabrera over the last 5 years:

Rameriz
Tulo
Reyes
Jeter


http://www.fangraphs.com/leade...0&sort=17,d

AND he's entering (going to be 27) his prime in 2013.

Agreed, the only comparable between these 2 is the glove. Cabrera is one of the better offensive SS in the league. Trading Miller or Rosie for Cabrera would be a major mistake. Trading say Jenkins and Adams for him would be acceptable. In my posts on this thread I may have come off as being strongly opposed to trading for him, but I'm not. I like Cabrera for the right price.

stlcards5129 wrote:

Agreed, the only comparable between these 2 is the glove. Cabrera is one of the better offensive SS in the league. Trading Miller or Rosie for Cabrera would be a major mistake. Trading say Jenkins and Adams for him would be acceptable. In my posts on this thread I may have come off as being strongly opposed to trading for him, but I'm not. I like Cabrera for the right price.

Completely agree with this.  I feel like Lance Lynn / Joe Kelly / Jason Motte / Matt Adams would be the prospect range I would go for.

Also, our SS depth is just Ryan Jackson and Pete Kozma. The upgrade from those two to Cabrera is huge considering the lack of holes elsewhere on the team, our surplus elite RHPs and 1Bmen, and how much a few extra wins in value can help us.

That's why I would be so interested in Andrus as well.

Maybe they would like Jackson in return as well or Carpenter.  I'd be fine with just about any of these options as long as Miller, Rosenthal, or Martinez aren't included.

grayssportsalmanac wrote:

619illinibooyah wrote: Would you consider dangling Carlos Martinez and Adams for Cabrera?

what happened to the throw up icon?

You got to give something to get something. You give up an arm and a power bat. Both project as major league material and you wouldn't give up Rosenthal, Miller or Kelly.

This isn't Fantasy Football where you can just hornswoggle some schlep into trading Ray Rice for nothing. Cleveland has the advantage of asking for more because they've got the 2 time all star and we have a glaring hole up the middle if Furcal isn't ready to go.

PadsFS wrote:

blingboy wrote: I've seen comments to the effect why should we trade something good for another Ryan Theriot? A seriously below average defensive shortstop (per fangraphs) who can hit some. Been there, done that, it didn't work.

Hit some???  Are you kidding?


The list of better hitting SS's than Cabrera over the last 5 years:

Rameriz
Tulo
Reyes
Jeter


http://www.fangraphs.com/leade...0&sort=17,d

AND he's entering (going to be 27) his prime in 2013.

The word about Cabrera's hitting is that in the last two seasons he has declined considerably in the second half.  He has developed a weight problem and has conditioning problems which are probably affecting his stamina.  Whether this can be fixed is or not is the question.  The bottom line is that he is a poor fielder and his offense may be declining as well.  He is a risk at any price in my view.  I wouldn't trade for him.

crdswmn wrote:

PadsFS wrote:

blingboy wrote: I've seen comments to the effect why should we trade something good for another Ryan Theriot? A seriously below average defensive shortstop (per fangraphs) who can hit some. Been there, done that, it didn't work.

Hit some???  Are you kidding?


The list of better hitting SS's than Cabrera over the last 5 years:

Rameriz
Tulo
Reyes
Jeter


http://www.fangraphs.com/leade...0&sort=17,d

AND he's entering (going to be 27) his prime in 2013.

The word about Cabrera's hitting is that in the last two seasons he has declined considerably in the second half.  He has developed a weight problem and has conditioning problems which are probably affecting his stamina.  Whether this can be fixed is or not is the question.  The bottom line is that he is a poor fielder and his offense may be declining as well.  He is a risk at any price in my view.  I wouldn't trade for him.

Is that an on-going thing or just something that surfaced as of today from that one beat writer and Chris Duncan?

Maybe we could ride Furcal for one half and Cabrera for the other!

stlcards5129 wrote:  . . . Agreed, the only comparable between these 2 is the glove. . . .

I take it you don't remember that the problem with Theriot was that his glove was not good enough.  That was the bottom line.

Theriot hit .271 for us, the same as Cabrera hit for Indians last year.  That was not good enough to make up for the glove in 2011 and there is no reason to think it would be in 2013.

Cabrera SLGs more than Theriot, but that is not what you hire a SS for.  We have guys who SLG.  The fact the glove is comparable is the decisive factor when you're talking about a SS.  We've tried the O over D approach already, it didn't work.  Let's find a glove man who isn't an automatic out and hit him 8th.

blingboy wrote:

stlcards5129 wrote:  . . . Agreed, the only comparable between these 2 is the glove. . . .

I take it you don't remember that the problem with Theriot was that his glove was not good enough.  That was the bottom line.

Theriot hit .271 for us, the same as Cabrera hit for Indians last year.  That was not good enough to make up for the glove in 2011 and there is no reason to think it would be in 2013.

Cabrera SLGs more than Theriot, but that is not what you hire a SS for.  We have guys who SLG.  The fact the glove is comparable is the decisive factor when you're talking about a SS.  We've tried the O over D approach already, it didn't work.  Let's find a glove man who isn't an automatic out and hit him 8th.If you read the comments on the Cleveland Plain Dealer article many are saying Cabrera has become too overweight and slow to continue to play SS and if they keep him he should be moved to 1B.  Well, 1Bmen we don't need.

Some people I guess aren't familiar with Albert Einstein's definition of insanity.

If you read the comments on the Cleveland Plain Dealer article, many are saying Cabrera has peaked and has become too overweight and slow to continue to play SS.  They are saying if they keep him they would like to move him to 1B.  Well 1Bmen we don't need.